Mafia: Lifers vs Darkies

Periluna

My vote was purely to get things started and, for the record, was completely random. But all for ending the first round.

VOTE: ALEXINA

VOTE: MACAVITY

Ezalor

Ugh if this is just going to be random votes without much discussion and a game of follow the Sentaari I think I need someone to replace me out.

If you guys are interested in playing the game properly, ending day early is never beneficial to Town, especially not just for the sake of ending day early. You want to generate as much discussion as possible and force people to take a stand. Hell there are people who haven't even posted in the thread yet and you guys already want to end the day? That's awful. Why do you want to end day 1 so badly? Some Townie dies in the night and then suddenly we start day 2 none the wiser because 90% of the votes in this thread are random and stupid and a bunch of people haven't even posted yet.

Ezalor

You catch Mafia by looking at how they post and analyzing their posts. If every Townie is just voting randomly and not posting then it is the easiest thing in the world for the Mafia to do the same. Relying on the Sentaari is one of the most boring and unreliable ways to play Mafia. Please don't turn this into one of those games!

I'll expand on why I want Xenia to be killed. Mafia will post as if they have something to hide, trying to seem all Townie while insidiously pushing their own agenda. Xenia's first post immediately made me twitch; starting day 1 off with random and obviously non-serious votes is fine (ENDING IT WITH A LYNCH LIKE THAT ABSOLUTELY IS NOT, WHICH YOU ARE ALL ABOUT TO DO) but so early into the thread she's already throwing out scummy accusations at it without actually backing it up with a vote or naming any names. That's what Mafia like to do - pretend they are contributing while not actually contributing anything and being careful not to make any enemies.

The second post really did it for me. Esper posts one argument against a no lynch that isn't even very strong and suddenly Xenia does a 180, from "it's scummy" to "okay, the majority is doing it so I will too, even though I don't want to." Especially note her reason: she's careful to note she's only doing it because everyone else is while still hedging her vote to look like she doesn't like it. If she's Mafia she knows he's a Townie so hedging a vote for a Townie flip is something that will only really be on Mafia's minds.

It's not concrete but Xenia is one of the best day 1 lynches I've had pop up in 1.5 years of playing Mafia. I'd give her like a 60% chance to flip Mafia. Certainly a much better lynch than Macavity, which was done PURELY randomly and out of "let's end day 1." That strategy doesn't work, if you truly want to play Mafia you need to start making real posts and real reasoning.

Piper

Well. I guess that's a better reason than finding someone prejudiced.

VOTE: XENIA

Ilyon

Hmm, interesting. Stopping the lynch at 8/9 is incredibly risky, which indicates that Ezalor is probably fine. It could also imply that him and Macavity are both mafia, but it's too early for such desperate acts if that is the case. So I guess I'll follow that logic and

UNVOTE: Macavity
VOTE: Xenia

Moirean

Please remember to strikethrough your old votes in your new post if you change your vote!

Eg:

Vote: Yourmom

Vote: Yourface

Edit: unvote also works! (darn Ilyon posting at the same time I did)

Current vote count:

Macavity=7 (Esper, Teani, Xenia, Arbre, Iosyne, Alexina, Periluna) 

 Xenia=3 (Ezalor, Piper, Ilyon)  

Piper=1 (Angwe)

Periluna=1(Macavity)

No Lynch=1 (Aryanne)

Also, a pre-emptive reminder that you can't edit posts unless your name rhymes with Toirean.

Xenia

Tut, tut. If your only reasons for voting me is the switching, then by these measures Piper should be voted as well! My initial wish was a no Lynch. Why, because I'm used to taking on these situations with a town size of 7-8. In a situation like that, a random lynch on the first day can be detrimental to the towns numbers --- it is simply better to take a chance that the right person will be healed to possibly lose two innocents before day 2. 

Esper pointed out that Macavity has a history for derailing the decision process by consistently going after anyone who tried to lead the discussions. Iosyne and Ezalor argued that a lynch on day 1 was better than a NL. I looked at the total numbers, 15, and realized that the same sort of voting and lynching strategies for a town of 7-8 wouldn't apply, and I changed my vote. 

Ezalor: Consider my explanation here, if anything my only crime is not lurking and getting a better feel for how I should vote/not vote; the strategy I should employ.  As far as my current vote, at this point I really don't see how it matters, and clearly it appears the less one speaks the safer they are. 

Ezalor

No, that's not true. It's not how much one says, it's -what- they say. And I don't like what you said!

@Xenia why Macavity? You stated that you think random voting is suspicious, yet you didn't vote for any of those people. If anything you voted for the person who seemed to agree with you that random voting is suspicious.

@Iosyne you seem convinced that no lynch is a bad strategy, but why vote for Macavity? Is there a reason beyond just getting a lynch?

@Esper also why Macavity? Every vote before his was a non-strategic vote as well, and several after.

@everyoneelse get in this thread and start posting and discussing!

AND STAHP EDITING POSTS PLZ

Ezalor

And don't play the martyr give-up route, if you're Town that's the worst thing you can do. Convince people of your innocence, try to dig up stuff, defend yourself, force people who vote for you to lay their reasons into the thread. That way even if you are wrongfully lynched as Town we have a whole load of information to go off from the flip. Remember Town isn't a solo game, you have to act for the greater good! Even a Townie getting lynched can prove beneficial in the long run IF it brings a lot of information into the thread.

Xenia

Xenia said:

Tut, tut. If your only reasons for voting me is the switching, then by these measures Piper should be voted as well! My initial wish was a no Lynch. Why, because I'm used to taking on these situations with a town size of 7-8. In a situation like that, a random lynch on the first day can be detrimental to the towns numbers --- it is simply better to take a chance that the right person will be healed to possibly lose two innocents before day 2. 

Esper pointed out that Macavity has a history for derailing the decision process by consistently going after anyone who tried to lead the discussions. Iosyne and Ezalor argued that a lynch on day 1 was better than a NL. I looked at the total numbers, 15, and realized that the same sort of voting and lynching strategies for a town of 7-8 wouldn't apply, and I changed my vote. 

Ezalor: Consider my explanation here, if anything my only crime is not lurking and getting a better feel for how I should vote/not vote; the strategy I should employ.  As far as my current vote, at this point I really don't see how it matters, and clearly it appears the less one speaks the safer they are. 

My reasoning for changing my vote and why I chose Macavity was stated right there where it was highlighed. 

As far as my change from NL to Lynching Macavity: 

I still don't see how much can be discerned from the day 1 discussion. Everyone is still feeling one another out and the rhythm of this particular game. Honestly, I thought it was better off to lose one person (maybe, never know what the luminary will do), than possibly lose two town aligned people. Furthermore, it seemed like the whole goal was to just push through and end day 1 ASAP, based on the initial tone of the thread. So I decided to just throw my name with the majority so we could progress further and see what happened. 

Starting on Day1: 

Honestly, I have never liked these things starting with a day start because there's little to no logic involved in any decision making process in this d1 lynch. Any choice made here is either random or just twitchy, jumpy responses based on first impressions. 

So for the above reason, I am going to go with my initial gut reaction. 

Vote: Macavity

Vote: NoLynch

All these things being said, it's probably best to let the people who seem the most guilty on day1 live than to just see the punishment through. It gives the Cop someone to investigate and clear/determine they are guilty. Prevents the town from accidentally killing someone who may be important and is also willing to throw their voice in there and find the Mafia. If the Mafia is smart, they're going to keep that person alive during the night and try to get a wasted lynch on them during the next day.

Angwe

Vote: Xenia

Teani

I like @Ezalor's reasoning. It makes a lot of sense.

Vote: Xenia!

Edited for color

Esper

My initial vote against @Macavity was as arbitrary as anyone of the others: in past mafia games, if the first person to vote gets lynched, the rest of the game starts to get incredibly boring because people are afraid to speak up and become targets.

I don't have a particular grudge against Macavity but rather that strategy in general, because in the past it's made games less fun.

However, before we switch away from lynching him--especially because changing your mind instantly brings you to the chopping block--I think we should evaluate @Ezalor's motives for being Macavity's advocate.

At this point in the game, there's no reason any of us should have anyone's back, unless you're part of the vampires. It's the only faction from the start which knows each other's members. So I'm suspicious why Ezalor would be so emphatic in his defense against a random vote, especially since as we know that's how the first one always devolves. Further, even if @Xenia is a vampire, that's not to say that the other's of her faction won't throw her under the table. What better way to build our trust that to vehemently argue against a member of your own faction?

Actually, it strikes me that preventing a vote against a vampire by turning suspicions away would be just as effective without exposing your hand by merely not voting, so stalling a close lynching might even be equatable to a nolynch vote.  Yes, we might tragically select the wrong random person for the wrong random reason, but not only have we all been that person before, we've also seen random chance get it right every once in a while.

Ezalor's assertions that we need to vote based on evidence is absolutely correct, but more important than posts with drawn out theories and logical arguments (which are sometimes extremely persuasive but always bound by the contingent circumstances) are voting patterns. That's why some people want to see the first round end; we can't start to form patterns yet because practical executions of theory have yet to had time to manifest.

There are possible interpretations other than that Ezalor or Xenia are are vampires, but unlike @Ilyon I don't think it's too early for such desperate tactics. I'm just also not convinced by the arguments that Xenia is acting more suspicious than Ezalor; any theory can be accurate given a paranoid enough interpretation.

For the record, I'm not suspicious of Ezalor, yet. I think he's just trying to goad participation. But his actions could be placed in suspicious context just like he's doing to Xenia's.  So what we really need to do now is question what data we have available, and whether deviousness or inexperience are causative factors.

Aryanne

Hrm.. I kinda like Ezalor's logic, though it seems a bit "RAWR! IMMA TAKE CONTROL AND WHINE THAT NO ONE'S DOING WHAT I WANT THEM TO. My way of playing the the only right way!" And that grated on me.

That said, I was gonna switch my vote back from nolynch to Xenia last night, but then -I- might be the one getting labeled all pancakey. However, hearing her self-defense now that she's been further called-out, I am not impressed.

UNVOTE: NoLynch

VOTE: Xenia

Ezalor

@Esper please tell me what voting patterns Macavity's lynch would possibly show. You had 8 people vote him for really no reason, and then a bunch of other people not even post in the thread. It basically just gives us day 1 all over again, except this time there's 1 extra dead Townie in the night. If Macavity IS Mafia that's a pure random chance that a vote succeeded, and essential RNG of a vote is a good way for Town to lose. I'm also pretty confused at your reasoning. It'd be some serious, weird next-level crap if Xenia and I were both Mafia and I just pulled some epic bus on day 1 when she was in no danger prior. I don't "have Macavity's back," I'm opposed to a random nonsense lynch when I believe there's a better lynch candidate and discussion to be generated.

@Aryanne No, I -want- people to disagree with me. I want them to put their opinions in the thread. Or, if they agree, state why. This is how you promote a good Town scrumhunting atmosphere; encourage activity, force people to talk, fill the thread with information. Mafia's a game of the uninformed majority vs the informed minority, so Town has to work every day to even out that information disadvantage. We do that by talking in the thread.

There's still a lot of people MIA from the thread, please get in here and voice your opinions on what's going on. We've got a base of discussion going now, there's no longer an excuse to be missing!

Esper

@Ezalor: patterns don't emerge without conclusive evidence. That is, we can't know how or why people are voting without knowing the results of a vote to provide an initial bias. Someone will likely die by lynching this round, and which faction they were part of will provide us some information regarding motivations for voting for that person, or defending another.  Let me bring that out of generalities to the specific situation.

Should Macavity by a villager--and we've yet to hear him defend himself--he will have been selected by the RNG, but we also can deduce certain things from his death. For one, you would gain credence because of your defense of him, and those who argue most strongly for his death are put under the spotlight.  Please note, however, that I have not changed my vote because of any malice for Macavity, and I have no forensic reason to wish him out of the game; rather, I've yet to be convinced by your argument that Xenia is not merely another arbitrary choice.

Her initial choice of no lynching could also be stated as, "we don't have enough evidence to pick people, so I don't want to do it this round."  I'm not claiming to be the best rhetorician since Socrates, so I don't think my explanation of the no-lynch strategy is particularly compelling, but a change to pick up the pace of everyone else isn't suspicious--it's playing the game after correcting a mistaken assumption.

If it had been anyone else to change their vote first, I'm sure we would see equally arbitrary "explanations" of that person's "guilt."  While her own explanations of her actions aren't exactly the strongest, how would any of us fare under the pressure of being first-round-lynched? The only other person who has been close to it has had someone else advocate his position.

Regarding the off-the-wall strategy of you and Xenia both being vampires, it's only viable if you're the Bloodborn. You quickly gain everyone on your side by correctly "identifying" a vampire, the Monk can't tell you're part of their faction, and bam, you're a trusted agent.  It's nuts, but no more nuts than targeting the first person to change their vote.

@Xenia, I really hope you're Enoduiranian, because I'm really putting my neck on the line for you.

Ezalor

You can call any argument arbitrary if you want to. There are scum signs and scum tells, and I'm going with mine that have been tripped. You may not agree with me, but argue with the logic and provide reasoning, not just simply dismiss it as arbitrary or contrived. And, if you'll notice, Xenia is right back to no lynch after a bit of pressure about her voting for Macavity, so double mistaken assumption?

I don't think anyone was pushing hard for Macavity's death, hence why I don't think it'd tell us anything. It was just people jumping onto the bandwagon without any reasoning besides to get a lynch over with. It's impossible to differentiate between bored/impatient Town and Mafia there.

I'll leave the thread for a bit since I want to hear some other opinions without the thread being dominated so heavily like it is right now.

Xenia

Esper pretty much explains my reasoning. I didn't see the point in lynching on a day 1. I've always thought random lynches were dumb. For the sake of moving forward and onward in the game, I changed my vote. After Ezalors fit about wanting out of the game if people were just going to rush things along, I decided I'd just do what I wanted to do from the start anyway, which was not lynch on day 1. 

I don't see how this makes me seem anymore guilty than any of the others. I think Ezalor for the sake of stirring things up pointed a finger at me because I used stronger language than the others, then changed my vote. For the record, I think that Aryanne summarized Ezalor's general attitude, as perceived by me. Anyway, I will wait and see how more people vote before I speak further to my innocence. 

Macavity

It will be very hard to determine this early in the game who is who, and for my defense, I just do not want to be the first to die, and its very hard to determine what everyone else is going to do at such an early stage of the game.

Macavity

oh and this..

UNVOTE: Periluna

VOTE: Xenia

Lin

I know I'm not in this game and this is the first and last time I'll intrude, but @Ezalor, dude, there's almost always a random lynching on the first day. It's just how the game works out.

Ezalor

[ @Lin Yeah, from where I used to play day 1s would usually last a good 30 or so pages. Mafia games were more like exercises in psychology with everyone trying to analyze each other. I think my style/what I'm used to is a bit out of place here, where people seem to be much more relaxed and casual about it. Full game threads would reach hundreds of pages. I think it's too intense for a casual Aetolia game, I'm used to spending 3-4 hours every day just typing crap about Mafia games ]

Macavity

I am sure we will get to that point.  Some of us, like me, are new to this type of game and trying to feel it out

Xenia

[@Ezalor this would explain a lot. The mafia style games I'm used to playing have either been through Starcraft or web based, they were played in real-time, and at most, lasted an hour. This is my first time playing on a forum.]

Moirean

Votes:

Xenia=7 (Ezalor, Piper, Ilyon, Angwe, Teani, Aryanne, Xenia)

Macavity=5 (Esper, Teani, Arbre, Iosyne, Alexina, Periluna)

No Lynch=1 (Xenia)

9 votes are needed for a lynch!

Arbre

I'll go ahead and switch my vote from Macavity to Xenia for the purposes of bandwagoning. At this point I feel like everyone is going to be saying I'M INNOCENT and pointing at someone else so there's not much information to actually pull.  Once someone is killed off at night by the vampires then we can look a bit better at voting patterns. I just still believe this round is always completely random.

VOTE: Macavity Xenia

Periluna

And to be the ninth vote for pretty much the same reason as Arbre is giving. 

VOTE: Macavity

VOTE: Xenia

Xenia

Well, I didn't want to have to do this, but if you all truly wish to stick with this vote, then you will be hanging your doctor. I urge all those who wish to see this village prevail change your vote. That is all. 

Aryanne

*pout*

unicorns it! This is why I hate round 1 *glower*

UNVOTE: Xenia

VOTE: Nolynch

Until such time as reasonable discussion can prevail and convince me otherwise or actual doctor presents itself to disprove/throw doubt on Xenia's claim.

EDIT: I just edited to make the strike-through work, sorry.

Periluna

Erk. I don't know if this is just a ploy by Xenia to save her skin, but just in case...

VOTE: XENIA

VOTE: NOLYNCH