The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

Seir

Maybe the thread has had some degree of hostility, but it's honestly because people are fed up at this point. We're fed up of inaction, fed up of partisan liaisons that obviously exist but skirt the line of being "civil" enough to evade notice, fed up of an unarmored class being able to have a higher physical audit than a class wearing -fullplate-. We're tired of a disparity that has existed for ages yet nothing is done save inconsequential changes.

We're not asking for a new class, we're asking for minor changes to mechanics that would improve the quality of combat balance to considerable degree, allowing it to be even for all and allowing individuals to compete. Most of all, I'm tired of having to scream this at people on a regular basis when I had a history in other games of being a civil classlead in two other games.

Moirean

Daskalos said:

Well, that's refreshing that that has changed. I just hate being told 'you didn't test this' when I don't have the -means- to test something. I mean, I was told for 4 liaison rounds that 'overwhelm is fine' before I just sent in a ton of combat logs of people tanking tons and tons of overwhelms. Overwhelm got a buff (and no one has been griping that it's overpowered!) and I'm pretty happy with the Luminary class. 

But logs are exactly what helps demonstrate WHY changes are needed, versus just personal opinions and anecdotal evidence. That is pretty much the only thing I've been saying in this thread, and it spun off into a tangent which seems to have been construed badly (I'm not trying to "lie" Angwe), sorry for that. 

What I really just want to convey is this: to really be able to get a view of what each side is facing, you need combat logs that are more than just short snippets of a damage spike, and these logs have to include people playing at a high level. Especially for team combat stuff, lots of logs are a great way to see how skills are functioning in practice. 

Varel

At the bbt thing, I'm theorising here but I suspect it has a lot less to do with artifacts (although they're obviously going to play a fairly significant role in it) and more to do with the fact that those artifacts are stacked with significant stat bonuses from the previous promotion. Obviously doing more than someones max health with a single attack is more than questionable, but going off about how its pay to win and all that nonsense probably isn't going to ingender a desire to address it (as annoying as itt is, it is a problem that in time will correct itself). Releasing stat boosting consumables probably wasn't such a great idea, but throwing a tantrum isn't going to magic them away.

Civility really doesn't cost anything, and generally tends to be more productive.

Mephistoles

Seir said:

Maybe the thread has had some degree of hostility, but it's honestly because people are fed up at this point. We're fed up of inaction, fed up of partisan liaisons that obviously exist but skirt the line of being "civil" enough to evade notice, fed up of an unarmored class being able to have a higher physical audit than a class wearing -fullplate-. We're tired of a disparity that has existed for ages yet nothing is done save inconsequential changes.

When you say 'people' what I see is a group of about four or maybe five very active voices on either side fighting about what they feel is unfair, and rather than posting numbers and giving logical arguments, the majority of the time they're just shouting at each other.  I for one am not at all dissatisfied with the game, or with the administration, or with balance, and I bet there are a lot of players who feel that way but just don't want to put in their two cents into a threat like this because they want to avoid being trolled, flamed, or harassed.

You don't have to scream at anyone.  I have not met a single person in this game where 'screaming' at them helped the situation, and every time I've lost my temper with another player, I have regretted  it.  Three liaisons that primarily play shadow characters and two that primarily play spirit characters is not hugely imbalanced, but it wouldn't be bad to get another on the spirit side, from either Duiran or Enorian.  

The forums, and the sparring grounds in particular, are probably the worst place to try to balance skills.  It seems to always inevitably devolve into a shouting match.  It started as at least an attempt at fair analysis, but now it's become accusations of mishandling by the administration, unfounded rumors, partisan liaisons, and a frustration of 'the people', which is really just a vocal minority on the forums.

Balancing how classes work together in groups is even rougher than balancing an individual class.  That it hasn't all been solved in the two weeks since this thread was started isn't reason for any of this.  Also, I think I like Varel.  I do not know him, but he sounds like a reasonable fellow.

Calipso

Alexina said:

I think this thread has ran its course. It's just so full of hostility right now and nothing positive is really coming from it anymore.

Agreed. It seems to also be the same baseless and might I say childish accusations of "One-sided Liaisons!" and "IRE loves money!" being repeated. May as well close.

Daskalos

I've been critical, but good job on the BBT change, @Razmael with the swift fix to BBT.

Illikaal

Alexina said:

Illidan said:

Actually, when Alexina was doing them years ago, there were complaints about it then. But I guess IRE has to make money, somehow. 

 Okay, you need to think about what you actually write in your posts. I never BBT peopled for over their max health. When I was monk, most of the complaints were directed at kai choke and mind crush, both of which since has been severely nerfed. Then, just now for the first time in ages, someone BBT'ed for massive damage. Rather than working with the liaisons or bringing it up in a constructive manner, you go into the rage thread to cry unfair, then you come here and start with the whole IRE-credit-conspiracy-thing. You can't seriously believe that the administration of Aetolia would refuse looking into a skill that hits for more than peoples' max health because you need credits to scale that high?

I think this thread has ran its course. It's just so full of hostility right now and nothing positive is really coming from it anymore.

Time out sir. I'm not claiming that there's an IRE-credit-conspiracy, neither am I claiming that the administration are refusing to look into it. What I SAID was that there were complaints  about it in the past, and nothing was done about it. The only concerns that were brought up is to WHY they take so long to fix blatant problems.

+--------------------------- CHANGELOG ENTRY #366 ----------------------------+

|  Entered by: Razmael                             Date: 2013/05/05 01:24:23  |

+--------------------------------- CHANGE ------------------------------------+

* The damage done by BBT will no longer be modified by strength.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

^Obvious acknowledgement of a blatant problem. Now all that's left is the ever dreaded ranged combat spam, and vampire lure. 

@Mephistoles You keep posting foolish things like "People are whining when they're not posting numbers about these situations." when they have been, repeatedly. The combatants of this game really don't appreciate noncoms saying things like "Post numbers with arguments." when we obviously already have. 

Mephistoles

@Mephistoles You keep posting foolish things like "People are whining when they're not posting numbers about these situations." when they have been, repeatedly. The combatants of this game really don't appreciate noncoms saying things like "Post numbers with arguments." when we obviously already have. 

I'm not entirely a non-com you know, I'm just not a particularly serious one, and simply not being at your level doesn't mean I don't understand concepts or have no right to weight in.  This is kind of another example of what I mentioned the last time that I posted in a thread in Ideas.  You basically just dismiss what I have said because of who I am.  You've progressed to putting words in my mouth, since I did not actually literally say either of those things.  My post is right on the page above yours, use copy and paste instead of putting quotes around something you're paraphrasing.

The numbers and logs posted so far have mostly been incomplete.  Seir started by posting numbers for ranged skills without posting the audit, the stats, or the total health used to get those numbers.  Two pages later Haven posted a log, and then after that we have a few posts from Luna, Daskalos, and some others, gradually providing some numbers and logs.  You certainly haven't posted any numbers or given any logs to help the discussion.

My words were literally "rather than posting numbers and giving logical arguments, the majority of the time they're just shouting at each other" and by just replying and telling me that I'm a non-com so what I have to say doesn't matter, you're kind of helping to prove my point.

Alastair

How did this thread turn into this?

If you are considering which liaison's character(s) reside in what organization, you are clearly not paying attention to the things that matter in regards to class balance. If you fail to account for every given scenario instead of falling into that same IC bias, you aren't paying attention to what matters anyways. I have a feeling that little weight is given to what RP allegiance(s) a player's character(s) in regards to being chosen as a liaison, but I am certain the inability to post accurate logs or to take into account your own failed response times as anything but a mechanical imbalance probably do.

On topic - I have seen overwhelming damage potential at range from the shadow side. I stand by the idea of implementing a cooldown on class specific abilities, so no one player can be targeted by multiple doppies/multiple hammers. What would be wrong with this, at least as a band aid/hotfix?