The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

Seir

Weaponry does not effect damage. Accuracy.

Calipso

Illidan said:

<everything else>

You've already proven time and time again that you know very little about combat, Calipso. Shaman's has all the same restrictions that a Lycanthrope's Serenade, Luminary's Angel Beckon, save for the flooded restriction. The all bypass mass, and are all readily stopped by shields, icewalls, and blocking. Vampire Lure also bypasses mass, just like the other three beckoning skills. So, what's your argument? That because Shaman's Pull, just like every other beckoning skill in the game bypasses mass? 

Edit: Ah. I see the problem. You're under the delusion that it's a 'pull' skill, rather than a beckon. It's a pull AND a beckon, which essentially just makes it a beckon, since both skills only work in adjacent rooms. Tada. 

A 'Grab' skill is one that utilizes the balance and status of the caster to 'grab' someone and drag them into their room (neckdrag, vinepull, sentinel dragging, etc.).

A 'Beckon" skill is one that utilizes the balance of both parties and the status of the victim. If the victim -CANNOT-  leave the room by any normal movement means, the beckon will essentially fail. (Angel beckon, lycan serenade, etc.)

No, Lure is not both, nor is Vinepull. Lure is a beckon, Vinepull is a grab. They are two different types of abilities with different arguments. Moving on.

Luna

e: Mystery solved, not transed weaponry. Moving on.

Calipso

Seir said:

Weaponry does not effect damage. Accuracy.

Issued myself about this before. Weaponry does affect damage of all weapons used.

Ilyon

49 audit, handaxe/hammer damage around 130, 15 strength:

Serrice cocks back her arm and throws a throwing axe at you.
Health Lost: 864, cutting.

Twirling a blackened warhammer above her head, Serrice quickly hurls it towards you. The projectile hammer slams head-first into your chest, knocking the wind out of you and leaving you dazed.
Health Lost: 960, blunt.

180 damage stat, 18 strength:
Twirling a blackened warhammer above her head, Serrice quickly hurls it towards you. The projectile hammer slams head-first into your chest, knocking the wind out of you and leaving you dazed.
Health Lost: 1536, blunt.

So the hammer is a bit better, but definitely not three times.

130 handaxe, 15 strength, Inept Weaponry:

Serrice cocks back her arm and throws a throwing axe at you.
Health Lost: 452, cutting.

So it looks like inept->trans  Weaponry nearly doubles the damage.

Angwe

I stand corrected. I offer my public apology to @Luna.

Seir

Did you test the hammer throw damage with Soul Sacrifice?

Luna

Seir said:

Did you test the hammer throw damage with Soul Sacrifice?

Why would I want to do that?

Seir

Because that's what people are doing.

Serrice

With 18 str and a 200 damage warhammer:

1503 without soul sacrifice and 1955 with.

Since you're just comparing values, that should be enough data points! Armor/maxhealth/weaponskill didn't change.

Luna

People do the silliest things. Soul sacrifice is just going to more than double the time between attacks and reduce your dps dramatically.

Ilyon

Ranger Serrice, Black Fox says, "18 str, 200 damage hammer."

Twirling a blackened warhammer above her head, Serrice quickly hurls it towards you. The
projectile hammer slams head-first into your chest, knocking the wind out of you and leaving you dazed.
Health Lost: 1503, blunt.

A faint sense of dread claws at the back of your mind as Serrice visibly concentrates, though it fades again before you pinpoint its source.
Twirling a blackened warhammer above her head, Serrice quickly hurls it towards you. The
projectile hammer slams head-first into your chest, knocking the wind out of you and leaving you dazed.
Serrice's attack strikes with the full force of her sacrificed soul.
Health Lost: 1955, blunt.

The latter hits more slowly.

Xavin

But if you're looking at three or four hammer throws, or even two alongside some other ranged attack, the individual dps drop means less in the long run.

Serrice

Throwing a max dam hammer takes about 3.5-4s, depending on the weapon speed. Soul sacrifice is 3s eq that you can't combo with. You can coordinate your high damage attacks to go for a single burst, but yes, it will cut your DPS by about 30-40%

Daskalos

Just because it's silly to do something doesn't mean people aren't doing it. An extra 500 damage isn't anything to balk out, especially when you have multiple people hitting.

3 People hitting at 1500 = a burst of 4500 damage. Most people have around 5500-6000hp. This won't kill.

3 People hitting at 2000 = a burst of 6000 damage Most people have around 5500-6000hp. This will kill.

If your target is dead, it doesn't matter how long the eq\bal recovery is.

Luna

@Daskalos: That's even less practical than a coordinated snipe, because of how sacrifice work. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that noone has ever died to a coordinated hammerthrow burst from 3 carnifex with sacrifice up.

Seir

Then you'd be wrong, because they have been doing it.

Luna

Post logs. Only valid if you lose all your health within the space of 2,6 seconds, mind.

Daskalos

While this isn't just hammerthrow, this is the reason we're complaining about lure and what not... I posted this log on these forums a couple of weeks ago. I have literally every artifact known to man. Lure + Hammerthrow + Arrows are just too much, and only one side has it.  And soul sacrifice was on these hammers. Also, was killed at range in 7 seconds.

http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/comment/13190/#Comment_13190

Luna

7 > 2,6

e: You can flag for offtopic all you want Seir, you're the one who brought in the entire soul sacrifice tangent. And noone has yet been able to show that skill has ever been utilized in a way that wasn't completely suboptimal.

Seir

It makes no difference either way, Luna.

At the end of the day, it's still a no risk/high reward ranged system.

An arrow flies in towards you.
It strikes you, gouging a deep and bloody wound.
Health Lost: 1998, cutting.
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.

Mm. Totally balanced though.

Toz

Nobody has been doing this, because they asked me about doing it. And I told them they were being stupid. Soul sacrifice takes 3s to put up, and puts you at a severe disadvantage when it comes to dealing with affs, as it sets your soul back 30% or so per use.

Daskalos

Nevermind.

Luna

Is it

"Knifing pain rips through your being as Toz's weapon hungrily devours part of your soul."

you're referring to?

Because that's not soul sacrifice. That's soulthirst.

Daskalos

Yea, I realized that -after- I re-read my post. Edited and removed.

Toz

I have done it exactly twice at a lesser, in history, to test the damage/effect of it. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it (I posted this log on these forums a couple of weeks ago) - even you just admitted it was awhile back that I used it. Also not quite sure how you can be sure I'm using soul sacrifice, since the message is exactly the same. Note the 200 damage change? Clearly 100% worth off-eq for 3s to add that. Great idea, especially since I had 2 others there to throw with me to instakill you like you guys were claiming.

This is why I /like/ the liaison system. Serrice can come grab me and run off to the arena to test numbers, instead of relying on forum logs/people raging for balancing like they used to.

Daskalos

By itself, lure is not a problem.

By itself, hammerthrow is not a problem.

By itself, bows are not a problem.

Combined, they are a problem. The synergy that exists on the shadow side of the game is part of what makes this a problem. When we've tried to get synergy in our skills, we've been told outright 'no'. There are people on both sides of the game saying lure is a problem. Complaining about arrows.

The complaints about ranged combat have been going on for -years- now. Nothing is done about it, and it really, really upsets me that this game that I enjoy playing and have spent a metric crapton of money on, refuses to do anything to balance it.

But let me rune up some flails and whip 3 people at a lesser fight, 2 of whom happen to be liaisons, and a week later Templars are nerfed to hell and back.

Luna herself told me once I should 'thank her' for 'giving me anything' in liaisons when I wrote a report that was approved. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't have to -beg- to see any sort of attention paid to my class.

Surely you can understand my frustration?

Edit: You can flag for troll all you want, Luna, but you can't deny that you said the things above. Your defense to a log of me dying in 7 seconds unavoidably was 'well, it wasn't less than 6'. Really?

Seir

If a policy of transparency is what the game is producing, then we need an official statement from @Keroc and/or @Razmael on their opinion for these abilities as both sides of this thread are decidedly partisan either out of defense, bias, or what have you and that's liaison and non-liaison included.

Calipso

Exactly as @Toz said, it isnt worth using Soul Sacrifice. Soul Sacrifice also immediately puts your own Soul at a point where you will be having dizzy spells and (I think) a chance at blackouts. It actually is more of an annoyance and detriment than useful.


Edit: Also dont forget, the side-effects of Soul sacrifice remain even after the 'bonus damage to next attack' is used. The effects last for like 5 seconds or so (not sure)

Calipso

Daskalos said:

I love our liaison system, where issues are just dismissed out of hand because the liaison happens to have the skill. How do you defend this, @Razmael?

This is not the case, you simply see it this way because you feel your ideas of combat are not being implemented. Although as you and anyone can plainly see, your issues and opinions have -not- been dismissed by the responses -and- testing shown in this thread alone. I've also found liaisons not to be one-sided, as I had approached @Serrice once about a complaint with a sentinel mechanic and she took my opinion seriously.