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The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

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  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    It's not a matter of superior coordination either. I've sat behind barrier for entire group fights and had nearly 6-7 shadow folks wail at me to no avail.
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    @Moirean Just tested this. You can't sit while entangled by lure. If I sit BEFORE lure goes ot (and stay sitting with some sort of toggle in my system to keep it from autostanding), that would work. Clearly, the solution is to travel to Eastern Europe and seek the masters of clairvoyance, learning their ways.

    See you in 20 years, suckas! Ha!
    image
  • XiuhcoatlXiuhcoatl
    edited May 2013
    The problem as to lure has been mentioned time and time again, remove the affliction from your system and deal with it manually. It's a fairly useless ability. Alternatively you could write around the affliction like many other afflictions in the game. You might need to write a WHOLE LOT or a little bit. In the case of lure, you need a bunch of trigger lines, and then one logic gate ((yourAfflictionListVariableForLure) is the equivalent of 1 or true or does not equal nil) then you negate it. Then jump on to the rest of your curing.  I've personally written paragraphs to handle a single affliction, case and point retardation.

    Also in next room combat there's no reason more of you can't be throwing javelins or handaxes. With this javelin(Damage: 177  Penetration: 91  Speed: 73  Arcana: 0) and 15 strength I'm able to put out 1479 damage to Kiershu(44% cutting audit, 7453 health) from the next room. I was able to do MORE damage to myself throwing a javelin from weaponry than your team was able to do with their class ability javelins simply because cutting>fire damage unless they're an indorani or vampire. So people just standing there saying they have no form of ranged combat, when they're one room away are just blatantly lying. Javelins are a viable form of ranged damage and so are handaxes. Granted a javelin will do MORE damage than a handaxe, the javelin will just take longer to recover from. This is purely based around weaponry and proficiencies. To me with 5775 health and 52% audit that javelin does 1068k damage to me at a balance time of 4.93. I can get that by manually forging the weapon to 959 damage at 3.82 at 15 strength. (Damage: 147  Penetration: 86  Speed: 116 Arcana: 0). This is done at neutral balance. The level 1 arti bow does more damage for less balance roughly 1.1k/1k at 3.25 balance. 

    Here's your counterpart about ranged combat. Is it going to be as good as a bunch of indorani and cabalists no, but it can easily equate a bunch of carnifex and dopplegangers next rooming you, because you can actually prefarar+prefarar+curare spam a person with just 3 people. As opposed to non-envomed stunning or firelord spamming.

    SeirCalipso
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    edited May 2013
    Angwe said:
    @Moirean Just tested this. You can't sit while entangled by lure. If I sit BEFORE lure goes ot (and stay sitting with some sort of toggle in my system to keep it from autostanding), that would work. Clearly, the solution is to travel to Eastern Europe and seek the masters of clairvoyance, learning their ways.

    See you in 20 years, suckas! Ha!
    I already said Lure literally acts like any other ranged aff ;_; 

    Also, I know that it gets negated when the move attempt fails via hitting icewall/block/flood, but those few seconds that you keep repeatedly getting that ranged aff make a huge difference. Esepcially when there's multiple people luring you at the same time. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
  • AlastairAlastair
    Banishment is a passive hard counter to the ent stripping your shield and the one doppie decaying. Just because you didn't have it in your comp at that time, does not mean, as the thread's title implies, that shadow v spirit is in a state of ranged imbalance. It probably is, but your example is an inappropriate control experiment in which to judge that, because your spirit team's composition didn't accurately represent the abilities of the spirit circle.

    /2cents
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Shut upbre."
    Arbre Aquila dur Naya says, "Yessir."
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "I'm a lady!"

    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Yeah cutscene kicks in."
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Watch our awesome CG."

    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "I grove ever stronger in the presence of Alastair!"
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Grow*."
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    IllikaalAngweLuthien
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    Alastair said:
    Banishment is a passive hard counter to the ent stripping your shield and the one doppie decaying. Just because you didn't have it in your comp at that time, does not mean, as the thread's title implies, that shadow v spirit is in a state of ranged imbalance. It probably is, but your example is an inappropriate control experiment in which to judge that, because your spirit team's composition didn't accurately represent the abilities of the spirit circle.

    /2cents
    While I agree 100% with that statement, Banishment has a tick time. It's still very possible for the doppie to be sent in, and decay within a certain time period. It doesn't just instanuke doppies the second they set foot into the room. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    Alastair provides the only legitimate argument so far and is correct. Yeah, Banishment is run off a tick timer. It only banishes one at a time as well, so multiple dopplegangers are not stopped.
  • AlastairAlastair
    And that's why, in Imperian, there was an internal cooldown placed on doppleganger abilities. Ours does a ranged strip, which was the biggest issue, but also simultaneous lust/hangedman or decay is just ridiculous.

    In regards to banishment functioning on a tick, that is true, but there's also orb sigils if you want an active way to combat ents. In addition, there's a resummon time for renewing banished ents and here, for whatever horrid reason, a limitation on pacts. Banish will last a log longer and is a lot more renewable. I know for a fact I've gone through over 100 doppies in teamfights over there, if not here.
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Shut upbre."
    Arbre Aquila dur Naya says, "Yessir."
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "I'm a lady!"

    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Yeah cutscene kicks in."
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Watch our awesome CG."

    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "I grove ever stronger in the presence of Alastair!"
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "Grow*."
    Senior Administrator Veritas says, "No druids here."
  • CalipsoCalipso
    Illidan said:
    Alastair said:
    Banishment is a passive hard counter to the ent stripping your shield and the one doppie decaying. Just because you didn't have it in your comp at that time, does not mean, as the thread's title implies, that shadow v spirit is in a state of ranged imbalance. It probably is, but your example is an inappropriate control experiment in which to judge that, because your spirit team's composition didn't accurately represent the abilities of the spirit circle.

    /2cents
    While I agree 100% with that statement, Banishment has a tick time. It's still very possible for the doppie to be sent in, and decay within a certain time period. It doesn't just instanuke doppies the second they set foot into the room. 

    Seir said:
    Alastair provides the only legitimate argument so far and is correct. Yeah, Banishment is run off a tick timer. It only banishes one at a time as well, so multiple dopplegangers are not stopped.

    The tick time is fast enough that a doppie will barely get 1 hit in before it is destroyed, ive tested this. The ticking is rather quick, I've attempted to send in a hound and doppie into a banishment rite room, attempting to make the rite hit the hound first for more decays, still wasnt really fast enough. Banishment rites pretty much neutralize the concept of "Doppie range" combat.
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul
    I think doppelganger could be redone to have an entirely different effect. An idea that makes sense for the flavour of the skill would be to 'order doppelganger create replica' as a basic reflection copy (with mana/eq cost). It would still be inferior to mage reflections because you couldn't use it on others. Trade ranged offense for defense, even out the playing field between the sides a bit.

    Alternatively, just remove the skill from the Domination skillset.
    image
    CalipsoEsper
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    edited May 2013
    Also, let me be clear as to why Vampire lure is a problem, just for detailed clarification. 

    As I said, it literally acts like a writhe aff in the brief moments you're actually being lured, meaning you can't sip, shield, etc. While there are firelord shots/arrows/hammers/bonedaggers/dopplegangers being sent in at you, and if you're unlucky enough for them to hit you all at the same  time (which is frequently the case), you're going to find yourself dead really quickly. Lure can also be chained back to back, making it essentially inescapable when there are more than one vampire luring. Lure has been broken for years, the administration have acknowledged that it's a legitimate problem a few times before, and yet, absolutely nothing has been done about it. 

    The answer that keeps being given back to us is "Well, we're trying to figure out what we can give them in place of taking away X skill, so that they don't become useless." Useless how? I promise to God, if you took away Shaman's adjacent room discharge, they wouldn't suddenly become useless. Hell, we're not even asking you to take it away. We're just asking that you remove the fact that it's a writhe aff, and make it an adjacent instant beckon, just like serenade/pull/angel beckon.

    By the way? When I fist started using Shaman pull, and darkies started unicornsing about it, it got nerfed within a week. Don't believe me? 

    +--------------------------- CHANGELOG ENTRY #294 ----------------------------+
    |  Entered by: Razmael                             Date: 2012/12/02 11:22:58  |
    +--------------------------------- CHANGE ------------------------------------+

    - [Naturalism - Pulling] is now stopped by mass, but if the target has
    overgrowth in their room, it will bypass it still.

    +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

     Why? Because the change didn't suddenly make Shamans so OMG useless. Neither will taking away Lure in its current incarnation from Vampires. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    AlexinaBenedictoCalipso
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul
    I didn't have the energy to read through this entire thread, but yes, ranged writhe affs are bad (lure and hangedman).
    image
  • CalipsoCalipso
    edited May 2013
    Illidan said:
    Also, let me be clear as to why Vampire lure is a problem, just for detailed clarification. 

    By the way? When I fist started using Shaman pull, and darkies started unicornsing about it, it got nerfed within a week. Don't believe me? 

    +--------------------------- CHANGELOG ENTRY #294 ----------------------------+
    |  Entered by: Razmael                             Date: 2012/12/02 11:22:58  |
    +--------------------------------- CHANGE ------------------------------------+

    - [Naturalism - Pulling] is now stopped by mass, but if the target has
    overgrowth in their room, it will bypass it still.

    +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

     Why? Because the change didn't suddenly make Shamans so OMG useless. Neither will taking away Lure in its current incarnation from Vampires. 
    This is an entirely different pull mechanic scenario than Lure that had different attributes to it, Also vine-pull is a grab, while Lure is a beckon, making for a set of different counters and mechanics there. Mass is the de-facto defense when it comes to grab pulls, which was essentially created to balance the mechanic of grabs. When Vine-pull was introduced to bypass mass, it only presented large problems in combat balance and not to mention confusion that a grab could bypass mass. Lure remains within the boundaries of defenses against beckons: Flood, icewalls, blocks, and generally any movement blockers.

    Vine-pull is still one of, if not the best, grabs currently in the game. It still has the potential to bypass mass, and overgrowthing an adjacent location doesnt break a sweat to accomplish. If anything it seems they only made Vine-pull more fair when it comes to grab balances, rather than change anything really about it. Also honestly I really doubt a Shaman wouldnt have overgrowthed rooms around them to begin with..so this just seems like an attempt to point out a different balance change in an attempt to cry "unfair management".
    SeirIllikaal
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    edited May 2013
    Calipso said:
    Illidan said:
    Also, let me be clear as to why Vampire lure is a problem, just for detailed clarification. 

    By the way? When I fist started using Shaman pull, and darkies started unicornsing about it, it got nerfed within a week. Don't believe me? 

    +--------------------------- CHANGELOG ENTRY #294 ----------------------------+
    |  Entered by: Razmael                             Date: 2012/12/02 11:22:58  |
    +--------------------------------- CHANGE ------------------------------------+

    - [Naturalism - Pulling] is now stopped by mass, but if the target has
    overgrowth in their room, it will bypass it still.

    +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

     Why? Because the change didn't suddenly make Shamans so OMG useless. Neither will taking away Lure in its current incarnation from Vampires. 
    This is an entirely different pull mechanic scenario than Lure that had different attributes to it, Also vine-pull is a grab, while Lure is a beckon, making for a set of different counters and mechanics there. Mass is the de-facto defense when it comes to grab pulls, which was essentially created to balance the mechanic of grabs. When Vine-pull was introduced to bypass mass, it only presented large problems in combat balance and not to mention confusion that a grab could bypass mass. Lure remains within the boundaries of defenses against beckons: Flood, icewalls, blocks, and generally any movement blockers.

    Vine-pull is still one of, if not the best, grabs currently in the game. It still has the potential to bypass mass, and overgrowthing an adjacent location doesnt break a sweat to accomplish. If anything it seems they only made Vine-pull more fair when it comes to grab balances, rather than change anything really about it. Also honestly I really doubt a Shaman wouldnt have overgrowthed rooms around them to begin with..so this just seems like an attempt to point out a different balance change in an attempt to cry "unfair management".
    You've already proven time and time again that you know very little about combat, Calipso. Shaman's has all the same restrictions that a Lycanthrope's Serenade, Luminary's Angel Beckon, save for the flooded restriction. The all bypass mass, and are all readily stopped by shields, icewalls, and blocking. Vampire Lure also bypasses mass, just like the other three beckoning skills. So, what's your argument? That because Shaman's Pull, just like every other beckoning skill in the game bypasses mass? 

    Edit: Ah. I see the problem. You're under the delusion that it's a 'pull' skill, rather than a beckon. It's a pull AND a beckon, which essentially just makes it a beckon, since both skills only work in adjacent rooms. Tada. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    Calipso
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen Canada
    Bypassing flood is actually a pretty big deal tbh. It's what sets it above the other generic movers.
    image
    CalipsoXiuhcoatl
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul
    edited May 2013
    Yeah. I've only gotten vibegrabbed like twice, so I don't really feel like I have adequate experience to say whether it's too strong or not. I think it should just be monitored for a while, although my initial impression is that it's not something that will truly tip things like foci battles in the shaman's favour too much. Does anyone have logs of getting vinepulled that show the fights's outcome and how much getting pulled to that room actually affected the course of the battle? It'd be interesting to see, I think.

    EDIT:
    When I got vinepulled at a foci, I just walked back to the main group.
    image
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion

    Ezalor said:
    Bypassing flood is actually a pretty big deal tbh. It's what sets it above the other generic movers.

    By that same logic, parting ring must be too powerful.
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    edited May 2013
    @Luna Hey, awhile ago you told me that you tested high damage handaxes (specifically a 130 damage handaxe) with 18 STR and got comparable numbers to Carnifex Hammerthrow. Uhm... what happened?

    It is a one-handed weapon.
    Damage: 128  Penetration: 98  Speed: 127  Arcana: 0
    A throwing axe has no venoms or magical effects on it.

    Cutting        20%          0%           35%          34%

     Strength     : 17(+3)  Dexterity    : 17(+1)  Timeout   : 10 minutes    |
    | Intelligence : 16(+1)  Constitution : 14(+1)  Statpack  : Dexterous    

    You cock back your arm and throw a throwing axe at yourself.
    Balance Used: 4.40 seconds
    The axe swiftly returns to your hand.
    H:89% M:100% E:99% W:100% Bl: 39 XP:99% [cspdb e-] STUNNED -526h (cutting)


    Now, I've seen a few people who I kinda trusted just straight make shit up in this thread. (@Moirean, You cannot have been sitting, touching shield or icewalling while being lured! It's a writhe aff and all you can DO is writhe! Lier!) but this takes the cake, man.

    PS: @Admin, before you trust anything that any of your liaisons or anyone else tells you, I really hope that you guys are testing this stuff yourself. My trust is broken. I'ma go play Achaea for awhile until I calm down.
    image
    Seir
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul
    @Angwe:
    Did you test it without any defs/armour? Because her post specifically mentioned that she was not deffed up or wearing armour.
    image
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    Then it's irrelevant to the conversation. Hammerthrow does 1000+ damage to me with armor and defs.
    image
    Daskalos
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen Canada
    Seir said:

    Ezalor said:
    Bypassing flood is actually a pretty big deal tbh. It's what sets it above the other generic movers.

    By that same logic, parting ring must be too powerful.
    Parting takes eq, one person can't instantly part + summon.
    image
  • LunaLuna
    edited May 2013
    Yeah, raging about lies and whatnot isn't going to get you anywhere Angwe. My numbers are accurate, from liaison arena and I'm not sure why there's disparity between our results.

    [spoiler]
    + Luna Olahri ------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Strength     : 18(+4)  Dexterity    : 17(+1)  Timeout   : 60 minutes    |


    H:6050 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]audit
    ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
    Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cutting        10%          0%           13%          16%
    Blunt          10%          0%           13%          16%
    Magic          10%          24%          0%           32%
    Fire           10%          24%          0%           32%
    Cold           10%          24%          0%           32%
    Electric       10%          24%          0%           32%
    Poison         10%          24%          0%           32%
    Psychic        10%          24%          0%           32%
    Asphyxiation   10%          24%          0%           32%
    *******************************************************************************
    H:6050 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]wp axe
    It is a one-handed weapon.
    Damage: 130  Penetration: 90  Speed: 130  Arcana: 0
    A throwing axe has no venoms or magical effects on it.
    H:6050 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]throw axe at luna
    You cock back your arm and throw a throwing axe at yourself.
    Health Lost: 1771, cutting.
    You are afflicted with stun.
    Balance Used: 3.02 seconds
    The axe swiftly returns to your hand.
    H:4279 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [pdb e- lr]
    You are no longer stunned.
    You have cured stun.
    H:4279 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db e- lr]
    H:4975 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]audit
    ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
    Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cutting        10%          0%           22%          20%
    Blunt          10%          0%           22%          20%
    Magic          10%          24%          0%           32%
    Fire           10%          24%          0%           32%
    Cold           10%          24%          0%           32%
    Electric       10%          24%          0%           32%
    Poison         10%          24%          0%           32%
    Psychic        10%          24%          0%           32%
    Asphyxiation   10%          24%          0%           32%
    *******************************************************************************
    H:5396 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]throw axe at luna
    You cock back your arm and throw a throwing axe at yourself.
    Health Lost: 1639, cutting.
    You are afflicted with stun.
    Balance Used: 3.02 seconds
    The axe swiftly returns to your hand.
    H:3757 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [pdb e- lr]
    H:6050 M:5720 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]barkskin
    Mana Lost: 200
    You have gained the barkskin defence.
    You concentrate for a moment, and your skin becomes rough and thick like tree bark.
    Equilibrium Used: 4.00 seconds
    H:6050 M:5520 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db -b lr]
    Mana Gain: 114
    H:6050 M:5634 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db -b lr]audit
    ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
    Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cutting        25%          0%           22%          32%
    Blunt          25%          0%           22%          32%
    Magic          10%          24%          0%           32%
    Fire           10%          24%          0%           32%
    Cold           10%          24%          0%           32%
    Electric       10%          24%          0%           32%
    Poison         10%          24%          0%           32%
    Psychic        10%          24%          0%           32%
    Asphyxiation   10%          24%          0%           32%
    *******************************************************************************
    H:6050 M:5634 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db -b lr]
    You have recovered equilibrium.
    H:6050 M:5634 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [db eb lr]throw axe at luna
    You cock back your arm and throw a throwing axe at yourself.
    Health Lost: 1393, cutting.
    You are afflicted with stun.
    Balance Used: 3.02 seconds
    The axe swiftly returns to your hand.
    H:4657 M:5634 E:104% W:100% B:100% S:100% XP:53% [pdb e- lr]
    [/spoiler]
    Illidan said:
     if you ever see me killing someone (newbies especially) it's because I've had good reason to do so
    Calipso
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul
    Angwe said:
    Then it's irrelevant to the conversation. Hammerthrow does 1000+ damage to me with armor and defs.
    I agree, but I also remember her saying that she didn't really have anyone to test it with so she just chose to do it without defs or armour to have both skills used on the same premise. If you talk to her about it and offer some assistance, I'm sure she'll be more than happy to test both the skills against different audits/classes/whathaveyou.
    image
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    edited May 2013
    Edit: Rather, HOW are you doing almost 3x the damage I am with nearly identical conditions?
    image
  • IlyonIlyon
    Do you have handaxe proficiency?

  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    edited May 2013
    I'm a Sentinel.

    You are proficient in the following weapon classes:
    Shortsword.
    Handaxe.
    Spear.
    Dhurive.

    Sentinels automatically have proficiency in their class weapons. I assumed this was standard for all classes?
    image
  • BardaBarda
    edited May 2013
    ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
    Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cutting        25%          0%           0%           24%
    Blunt          25%          0%           0%           24%

    Here is a hammer throw with no armor, no soul stone embedded. 

    Twirling a heavily engraved warhammer above your head, you quickly hurl it towards yourself. The projectile hammer slams head-first into his chest, leaving him dazed and winded.
    Health Lost: 1797, blunt.
    You are afflicted with stun.
     stun
    A jolt of raw energy travels through your weapon as it gorges itself on yourself's soul.
    Balance Used: 3.06 seconds

    And with armor/soul stone embedded

    ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
    Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cutting        35%          0%           51%          50%
    Blunt          35%          0%           52%          51%

    Twirling a heavily engraved warhammer above your head, you quickly hurl it towards yourself. The projectile hammer slams head-first into his chest, leaving him dazed and winded.
    Health Lost: 1330, blunt.
    You are afflicted with stun.
     stun
    A jolt of raw energy travels through your weapon as it gorges itself on yourself's soul.
    Balance Used: 3.06 seconds  

    Couldn't get my audit lower because of blessing + statpack, but this is also with Strength     : 16(+2) 

    It is a two-handed weapon.
    Damage: 141  Penetration: 77  Speed: 129  Arcana: 0
    Show Him Who's Boss!
  • LunaLuna
    edited May 2013
    Do you have weaponry transed?

    e: @angwe
    Illidan said:
     if you ever see me killing someone (newbies especially) it's because I've had good reason to do so
    Calipso
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    Weaponry affects accuracy and balance speed, not damage. Irrelevant.
    image
  • BardaBarda
    Weaponry affects damage as well I am pretty sure, at least it does with Carnifex from what I remember being told. But with Carnifex it is savagery or weaponry not both.
    Show Him Who's Boss!
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