The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

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  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Ezalor said:
    Eh, being mounted opens you up to being pulled by any ability normally stopped by flooding. Wouldn't help things much!
    It doesn't.

    SeirXiuhcoatl
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ooh, TIL. My bad!
    image
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Toz said:
    Illidan said:

    STILL, I DIDN'T WANT THE MOVEMENT BLOCK FROM CAGE DAMNIT. 

    Toz said:
    Yeah exactly. It would be way too strong with rubble + movement block from cage dammit.
    [spoiler]
    image
    [/spoiler]
    WUHEVAH, WUHEVAH, I DO WHAT I WANT.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Sorry Seir, but a list that considers convocation, vinepull and tsunami to not be viable really cannot be taken seriously.

    SeirCalipsoXiuhcoatl
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh huh, didn't even look at the realistic part. I don't know how you can say Lure, Lust and Sandslice/Brazier are all viable and then not include Vine Pull. It's harder to block than any of those darkie movement skills.

    Dunno how you can say Quake is realistic and Tsunami isn't too. Sure you can't flood adjacently but if someone is defending a room without it being flooded that opens up a whole bunch of other skills you can start using.
    image
    Calipso
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pulling is easier to block than lure, harder to block than sand slice/brazier, and harder than lust in a stand off situation. In a melee, it's still easier to block than lure, probably about the same as sand slice/brazier, and easier than lust.
     
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Ilyon said:
    Sorry Seir, but a list that considers convocation, vinepull and tsunami to not be viable really cannot be taken seriously.
    When you fight and try to use them in a practical situation or provide adequate reasoning like a proper liaison instead of snark and a biased perspective, I'll take your opinion more seriously. Until then, this is my equally snarky response:

    Edit: Pull is easier to block if you lack a Teradrim because it's still stopped by shield, barrier, and blocking. Nothing, and I mean nothing stops Sand Slice if we lack a Shaman. I forgot to include vine pull, but given convocation's set up requirements, the fact that is hard countered by two classes of yours, etc, I'm not including it when compared to the other abilities.




  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ilyon said:
    Sorry Seir, but a list that considers convocation, vinepull and tsunami to not be viable really cannot be taken seriously.
    Sigh. Ilyon, I really don't want you to take this the wrong way, but as a Liaison you haven't done much to impress me at all. I've yet to ever see you stay in a fight, unless the numbers for your side are overwhelmingly large. I don't ever see you duel, unless it's to fight someone you're absolutely sure you'll win against. I DO respect you for not ever participating in the incessant SHAMANS OP whinefests, or whinefests in general about "Dis lifer skill is OP cause I can't handle it." Still, this brings me to my point. 

    Anytime a regular combatant on the Spirit side of the game brings up a problem, and why it is a problem (lust tarot for example), you just seemingly disregard the opinion of said person almost all the time. You personally have never had to deal with the Lust tarot for several years, and therefore don't know what it's like. You argued "Lol, auto reject on lust tarot is stupid because it's easily abusable." when anyone who's dealt with it before knows that NOT auto rejecting lust will result in you likely forgetting (or not realizing) that you ever got lusted in the first place, and then you end up getting pulled back into a combat situation without expecting it. There was another conversation regarding the difference between Ascendril's Tsunami and an Sciomancer's Quake and how you said that they're equal, when they're not. Again, as far as I know, you haven't been in that sort of situation on a realistic battlefield. Testing and theorizing about combat skills in a controlled environment is one thing, but in an actual situation, all of the same factors can't be applied. 

    As a liaison, I'd definitely like you to start actually trying out these things and seeing how they work, rather than just looking the other way when you have your mind set on something that you don't experience often at all. Xarian and Borscin did it, and you can too. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
    CalipsoSeirAngwe
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I set up a short little script to remind me when I get lusted, instead of auto-rejecting. I haven't been empressed on any character since then, so far as I'm aware. Just throwing that out there.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    HavenCalipso
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Serrice said:
    Pulling is easier to block than lure, harder to block than sand slice/brazier, and harder than lust in a stand off situation. In a melee, it's still easier to block than lure, probably about the same as sand slice/brazier, and easier than lust.
    Vinepull is a grab that bypasses mass, monolith, and shield (I think), no other form of grab has that much use to it. The only thing that you can use to defend against it is icewall or pray that a teradrim is around to come. There is no way to stop overgrowth, which is very easy to cast since you can just toss it from an adjacent room into the enemy's room. Afterwards someone will just be spamming Firelash while the shaman has their finger down on the Pull button.

    Then there is displacement, an area grab ability that, if there is overgrowth in your room, allows the shaman to grab you with roots and suck you up to their group. Icewall, shield or mass does not stop it. Monolith SHOULD stop it (as I am told as per the teradrim counterpart displacement ability) but it seems the shaman ability is not stopped by monolith either, making  it a death-warrant should you step upon overgrowthed land. Also funnily enough, it seems somehow the roots are able to grab you even while flying...not going to go into that one :/.

    No, I think lifers have some very useful pull mechanics of their own.

    Edit: Oh forgot to mention, roots are also able to grab you if you are earthmelded or burrowed below.
    Illidan
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Calipso said:
    Serrice said:
    Pulling is easier to block than lure, harder to block than sand slice/brazier, and harder than lust in a stand off situation. In a melee, it's still easier to block than lure, probably about the same as sand slice/brazier, and easier than lust.
    Vinepull is a grab that bypasses mass, monolith, and shield (I think), no other form of grab has that much use to it. The only thing that you can use to defend against it is icewall or pray that a teradrim is around to come. There is no way to stop overgrowth, which is very easy to cast since you can just toss it from an adjacent room into the enemy's room. Afterwards someone will just be spamming Firelash while the shaman has their finger down on the Pull button.

    Then there is displacement, an area grab ability that, if there is overgrowth in your room, allows the shaman to grab you with roots and suck you up to their group. Icewall, shield or mass does not stop it. Monolith SHOULD stop it (as I am told as per the teradrim counterpart displacement ability) but it seems the shaman ability is not stopped by monolith either, making  it a death-warrant should you step upon overgrowthed land. Also funnily enough, it seems somehow the roots are able to grab you even while flying...not going to go into that one :/.

    No, I think lifers have some very useful pull mechanics of their own.

    Edit: Oh forgot to mention, roots are also able to grab you if you are earthmelded or burrowed below.

    Seir said:

    Shaman Pull (Requires overgrowth in both rooms to go through mass. Is subjected to mass if overgrowth is present only in the Shaman's room. Stopped by icewalls, blocking, Teradrim, shield)

    I swear, it's like you don't even bother to read. Also, displacement IS stopped by monoliths. You were just silly enough to not attach a flame to it, so I walked into the room, picked it up, walked out, and then displaced you. And for the record, displacement causes the Shaman to swap places with their target, putting them at risk as well. It's not a one-way summoning skill. But, surprise surprise, another case of Calipso not doing her homework. You should REALLY try it sometime. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll add Displacement to the list during downtime at work.

    I'm going to make a polite request that you do not post speculation if you're going to post on this thread. I have done much of the research already, having spent a great length of time yesterday testing many of the abilities I've listed above. That being said, I'm also going to ask for the basic courtesy that this thread doesn't devolve into snark. If you're going to post in disagreement, provide a reason as to why instead of being snarky or saying, "I just don't agree" because it makes you sound like this:



    Also, Grove Displacement really shouldn't be complained about. Teradrim had it for ages in the same form as Sand Swap and before, it didn't have any sand requirements and could just be used across the local area. So, if a group was standing together and you walked out into an area alone or as part of another group, you'd immediately get swapped into the enemy group. Grove Displacement is a lesser variant of that in that it requires overgrowth. However, darkies adamantly defended sand swap back then, so I sincerely hope for the sake of impartiality, they're not griping about its bastardized version.
    XavinIllidan
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Illidan said:
    Calipso said:
    Serrice said:
    Pulling is easier to block than lure, harder to block than sand slice/brazier, and harder than lust in a stand off situation. In a melee, it's still easier to block than lure, probably about the same as sand slice/brazier, and easier than lust.
    Vinepull is a grab that bypasses mass, monolith, and shield (I think), no other form of grab has that much use to it. The only thing that you can use to defend against it is icewall or pray that a teradrim is around to come. There is no way to stop overgrowth, which is very easy to cast since you can just toss it from an adjacent room into the enemy's room. Afterwards someone will just be spamming Firelash while the shaman has their finger down on the Pull button.



    Seir said:

    Shaman Pull (Requires overgrowth in both rooms to go through mass. Is subjected to mass if overgrowth is present only in the Shaman's room. Stopped by icewalls, blocking, Teradrim, shield)

    I swear, it's like you don't even bother to read. Also, displacement IS stopped by monoliths. You were just silly enough to not attach a flame to it, so I walked into the room, picked it up, walked out, and then displaced you. And for the record, displacement causes the Shaman to swap places with their target, putting them at risk as well. It's not a one-way summoning skill. But, surprise surprise, another case of Calipso not doing her homework. You should REALLY try it sometime. 
    Highlighted to make it easier for you to comprehend.

    Edit:  Also as fun it is for everyone to see your general negativity and, shall I say "asshattery", let's attempt to keep the snarky responses off the thread mm?
  • OrusOrus Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Calipso said:
    Illidan said:
    Calipso said:
    Vinepull is a grab that bypasses mass, monolith, and shield (I think), no other form of grab has that much use to it. The only thing that you can use to defend against it is icewall or pray that a teradrim is around to come. There is no way to stop overgrowth, which is very easy to cast since you can just toss it from an adjacent room into the enemy's room. Afterwards someone will just be spamming Firelash while the shaman has their finger down on the Pull button.



    Seir said:

    Shaman Pull (Requires overgrowth in both rooms to go through mass. Is subjected to mass if overgrowth is present only in the Shaman's room. Stopped by icewalls,

    Highlighted to make it easier for you to comprehend.
    If you're going to be snarky to defend a bad post, can you do me a favour and use better colors to highlight stuff so its readable? TIA.
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    Orus said:
    Calipso said:
    Illidan said:
    Calipso said:
    Vinepull is a grab that bypasses mass, monolith, and shield (I think), no other form of grab has that much use to it. The only thing that you can use to defend against it is icewall or pray that a teradrim is around to come. There is no way to stop overgrowth, which is very easy to cast since you can just toss it from an adjacent room into the enemy's room. Afterwards someone will just be spamming Firelash while the shaman has their finger down on the Pull button.



    Seir said:

    Shaman Pull (Requires overgrowth in both rooms to go through mass. Is subjected to mass if overgrowth is present only in the Shaman's room. Stopped by icewalls,

    Highlighted to make it easier for you to comprehend.
    If you're going to be snarky to defend a bad post, can you do me a favour and use better colors to highlight stuff so its readable? TIA.
    Defend what? Im pointing out the obvious point I made that is the same as mentioned previously.
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Calipso said:
    Orus said:
    Calipso said:
    Illidan said:
    Calipso said:
    Vinepull is a grab that bypasses mass, monolith, and shield (I think), no other form of grab has that much use to it. The only thing that you can use to defend against it is icewall or pray that a teradrim is around to come. There is no way to stop overgrowth, which is very easy to cast since you can just toss it from an adjacent room into the enemy's room. Afterwards someone will just be spamming Firelash while the shaman has their finger down on the Pull button.



    Seir said:

    Shaman Pull (Requires overgrowth in both rooms to go through mass. Is subjected to mass if overgrowth is present only in the Shaman's room. Stopped by icewalls,

    Highlighted to make it easier for you to comprehend.
    If you're going to be snarky to defend a bad post, can you do me a favour and use better colors to highlight stuff so its readable? TIA.
    Defend what? Im pointing out the obvious point I made that is the same as mentioned previously.
    You wouldn't have had a point to make, if you'd actually bothered reading the information presented to the general public. Data is gathered, tested, submitted, and yet, you STILL have the nerve to argue about what skills do, and do not do (like pit hitting enemies only). I don't get why YOU can't comprehend that. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
    Daskalos
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ilyon said:
    Ezalor said:
    Eh, being mounted opens you up to being pulled by any ability normally stopped by flooding. Wouldn't help things much!
    It doesn't.
    This is debatable. If you're mounted you are susceptible to any ability that forces normal movement. Things like lure. The same goes for if you are using a zephyr artifact.

    Seir
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xavin is correct. I generally make it a point to not be mounted when we know there are vamps luring.
    Calipso
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    [15:42:36.24 prompt] H:6439 M:5800 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:36.24 line] You are already mounted on a donkey.
    [15:42:36.24 prompt] H:6439 M:5800 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:40.60 command] tell Salmissra okay, lure
    [15:42:40.78 line] You tell Princess Salmissra Nebre'seir, "Okay, lure."
    [15:42:40.78 prompt] H:6439 M:6050 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:41.61 line]
    [15:42:41.62 line] Feeling your mind suddenly grow cloudy, you feel inexplicably drawn towards Salmissra.
    [15:42:41.62 prompt] H:6439 M:6050 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:41.62 system] AFFLICT: lure
    [15:42:42.68 line]
    [15:42:42.68 line] There's water ahead of you. You'll have to swim in that direction to make it through.
    [15:42:42.68 prompt] H:6439 M:6050 B:100% [csdb eb]

    Zephyr is a different story - you definitely don't want to be wearing that one:

    [15:42:48.88 command] wear amulet
    [15:42:49.04 line] You are now wearing a sulfurous amulet.
    [15:42:49.04 prompt] H:6439 M:6050 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:53.19 command] tell Salmissra again?
    [15:42:53.37 line] You tell Princess Salmissra Nebre'seir, "Again?"
    [15:42:53.37 prompt] H:6439 M:6050 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:54.19 line]
    [15:42:54.19 line] Feeling your mind suddenly grow cloudy, you feel inexplicably drawn towards Salmissra.
    [15:42:54.19 prompt] H:6439 M:6050 B:100% [csdb eb]
    [15:42:54.19 system] AFFLICT: lure
    [15:42:55.20 line]
    [15:42:55.20 line] Bloodloch West Gate.
    [15:42:55.20 line] The tenebrous cavern ceiling looms ominously high overhead. Suspended from a twisted iron pole, a flag of Bloodloch flies proudly here. The Western Gate of Bloodloch towers massively here. A stone statue resembling Clouser stands here. A glorious banner stands tall here as token of the strength and victory of the city. There are 2 wickedly sharp stalagmites here. A polished black plaque hangs here, its blood red letters emanating a dweomer of power. Looming above is a sculpture of five larger than life figures, carved from smooth, light-grey granite. A furious sandstorm rages here, the sand whirling around at a rapid pace. Inviting closer inspection, a monument of bone displays an informative plaque. Father Jamasco, a Nazetu priest stands here, deformed yet serene. A mahogany chest is here. There are 2 monolith sigils here. Cool grey steel comprises the simple trash bin that stands here. Gleaming dully in the available light, a lovely, three-tiered fountain is located here, spewing forth darkened blood. There are 2 imperious hemic savants here. Examining the surroundings with a perpetual sneer, a callous Praenomen vampire slouches here. Her posture hunched uncomfortably, a shawl-draped scion of despair resides here. Princess Salmissra Nebre'seir is here. She wields an austere moonstone staff in her left hand and an obsidian-toothed shortsword in her right.
    [15:42:55.20 line] You see exits leading east and west.
    [15:42:55.20 line] You shake yourself and clear your head free of the luring effect.


    CalipsoAarbrok
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've been lured in the past while mounted so that is either a bug or a stealth change. There's a reason we tell people not to be mounted up in group fights and I've definitely been lured on my mount before.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Test it while not standing in water while the lurer is standing in a flooded room. There's a variant somewhere that is causing people on mounts to be lured in.
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VAMember Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm pretty sure I've been lured while mounted, but I could have been mistaking getting lust/empress'd while I was off eq for a lure. Human error.
    image
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    -or- better yet, have Lure/Beckon/Serenade/Adduction/Whatever bloody beckon skill dismount you first since your person is essentially being forced.

    Nix adduction since it essentially grabs everything and magically forces it, But I dont imagine a lycans serenade works on steeds, unless the lycan is into that sort of thing.

    Dismount seems a suitable solution, then the second tick being a beckon of that skill, that way it gives a viable defense to it and reasonable justification to staying mounted.

    I could be speaking a bunch of nonsense, I am not as well versed in the ins and outs of combat and study it incessantly like some people, I just dont necessarily see as many flaws with simple mechanics like beckoning skills when so many other problems are rampant.

    Keroc
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While I like the spirit of that solution, I really don't feel it is viable, for the simple reason that there are classes that must remain dismounted for them to work.

  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well for functionality sake yes, but then again if you are blocking being beckoned out, what essentially do you need to have work, if you get dismounted and pulled into a group you are essentially functional again.

    If you want the block to prevent people from exiting, use icewalls.

  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But that puts us back at the point that our classes that are numerous are not the ones with block, and let's face it, vampires are incredibly popular and thus a huge chunk of your side has block in the popular class. Our most popular classes (Luminary, Shaman, Sentinel, Monk\Zealot) don't have block. Templars have maybe 2 people that play in them in combat?

    image

    image


    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Three! Missari, Zion, and now Saarl. And I guess Belgarion, but I don't see him around much outside of that holy war.
     
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Daskalos said:
    But that puts us back at the point that our classes that are numerous are not the ones with block, and let's face it, vampires are incredibly popular and thus a huge chunk of your side has block in the popular class. Our most popular classes (Luminary, Shaman lol, Sentinel, Monk\Zealot) don't have block. Templars have maybe 2 people that play in them in combat?
    ftfy
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VAMember Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why not put block and fitness into survival (for fitness, this still assuming that passive curing is still getting a huge reduction/nerf across the board)?
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    DaskalosLaniraIllidan
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