The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

Illikaal

Ilyon said:

Ezalor said:

Just wanted to reiterate my stance about the silliness of having skills (Sand Slice) not have any counter besides having a counter class present. Atrapoema (rogue Teradrim) spammed Sand Slice at us yesterday and there was really nothing we could do about it on the darkie side (besides find a rogue Undead Shaman?). I imagine it'd be equally as annoying for lifers when they don't happen to have a Shaman online.

Teradrim are countered by themselves as well, so having another Teradrim would have worked just as well.

The main two reasons why I don't use Teradrim much are its lack of survivability (class has decent audit, but that's about it), and the fact that whenever I switch to another class, people inevitably start wanting BB rituals  (that's why I made that praenomen spec report, glare@Keroc) .

(and off-topic, but Duiran accepting the most anti-nature themed class is really hilarious)

You're kidding, right? Teradrim has AMAZING survivability. It doesn't have your definition of 'amazing' survivability because you've been rocking godtanky Bloodborn for years. In fact, Teradrim probably has more survivability than most Shadow classes at the moment, save for Bloodborn. 

Secondly, Duiran hasn't accepted him at all. It was hilarious listening to several Bloodlochians, Spireans, and Enorianites alike saying OMG WHY IS A TERADRIM A DUIRAN CITIZEN. I suppose everyone magically forgot about tethering. What a Guildless, Cityless classed person does at leylines or in any other battle isn't the responsibility of the city. Its also hilarious at how incredibly hypocritical Bloodloch is being about the situation, when they knowingly inducted a Luminary(Xiuhcoatl) only to have him forcibly kicked out by Ivoln. Bloodloch has also had Ayshireia (a priest) as a citizen for god knows how long, and use the excuse of "Well she's been a citizen for several decades." as an excuse to keep her. Bloodloch also didn't complain when Alexina and Mazzion both had Templar and Druid class. Don't. Wanna. Hear it. 

Haven

Let's keep the conflict IC and this thread on-topic.

Angwe

Don't forget the Shaman they had in Lunare for awhile.

Luna

Sorry, Dask, but it's just not right- because Spines and Bloodloch has been in a state of more or less overt hostility for the better part of the past two years, it's meaningless to claim blah blah Shadow doesn't know how it is to face their own skills. Shadow class users are generally far more experienced facing other shadow class users in real combat scenarios than can be said for spirit class users facing other spirit class users.

Moving on, the numbers presented in the first post are way off, at least for sentinel axethrow. When it comes down to it, sentinel axethrow is about on par with carnifex hammerthrow:

Numbers below were recorded with even weapon stats, strength, balance recovery, and physical audits I could have experimented more if I had other liaisons online, but I didn't, so this is what you get.

Axethrow:        3,02 seconds, 36 bleeding, 1771 cutting damage, envenomable, 1 second stun. Range: Line of sight, unlimited number of rooms from what I can tell.
Hammerthrow: 2,68 seconds, 1951 blunt, 1 second stun. Range: Adjacent room.

So axethrow has better range, envenomable, slight bleeding. Hammerthrow has a bit better damage and better speed, coming out at 24% better dps overall. The numbers from the first post are wrong, at least as far as handaxe balance time goes.

Forgot about demons for the rites.

Downplaying traps is wacky in a discussion about area control and battle. That they disappear on logout is hardly a substantial nerf in actual combat. Darts depleting even if the target moves out of room is mostly relevant 1v1, not in teams. And keep in mind that you get two traps sprung on entry now. It's a good little set of skills.

Sentinels being the only class without a lyre bypass skill is correct. We worked through the classes in the liaison arena a while back. There were a couple suggestions thrown around, but I don't remember the specifics. Should probably go in next liaison round, I guess Serrice forgot to make a report for this one. Or with Sentinel overhauls. Whichever comes first.

Any attempt to portray tsunami as useless compared to quake is completely biased. The two skills have slightly different strengths and weaknesses. Flood can prevent any quake, but you can't part an aquasphere.

Block is nice, but to be effective, you typically need two. Or, if you have a templar, one.

There are skills out there that needs to be adjusted. But looking at the current state of things, the massive side disparity the OP claims exists doesn't.

Ezalor

Angwe said:

Don't forget the Shaman they had in Lunare for awhile.

Lunare is its own entity, don't lump them with us!

For all these damage and speed tests, could you guys post the statpack/stats/weapon stats/audit of target when you do them? Can't really draw any conclusions from them when you don't control for all outside factors too (not saying the people who posted them didn't, but would be nice info to have).

Illikaal

I'm just wondering where you got an axe that hits that hard, throws that fast, and against what audit . Simply put, I've never seen/heard of an axe hitting that hard, or fast for that matter.

If those numbers are accurate, you can start calling me Gimli, son of Gloin. 

Luna

Audit was crazy low. I had to throw against myself, because there wasn't anyone else around to liaison with me, so I went undeffed and unarmoured for equal audits.

Axe was 130 90 130. 18str. Dex.

Might test more later.

Kaeus

Maybe I am in the minority, but the major appeal of Shaman was it's complexity. I'm surprised more people don't want to play it, as I've had a ton of fun in group fights with it so far. I feel way more useful than I have in the past.

Same goes for Teradrim, I enjoyed the class for the brief period that I played it. I just was unmotivated in general, so I didn't get much of a chance to PK with it before I swapped to Shaman.

I'm perfectly fine with the fact that they have buildup, as it makes it more interesting and fun to fight with. I've still not learned all I can about the class, but Shaman/Teradrim were probably the most fun I've had learning how a class works. It is nice to see two classes that work against each other in terms of their abilities that are not exact replicas.

I can say after swapping to Spirit side, it is certainly a different experience fighting against the Shadow side skills being used together than you would think.

Illikaal

What I think needs to happen is someone needs to create a new thread, gather appropriate numbers for realistic situations, and post the results. 

For example: 

Sentinel Handaxe with 130 90 130 stats as Dexterous (15 str with stars) VS (insert physical audit(s) here)

Sentinel Handaxe with 130 90 130 stats as Herculean (17 str with stars) VS (insert physical audit(s) here)

So on and so forth, with every single ranged type of attack. 

Ezalor

I also don't understand this "legacy, power creep" argument that Seir keeps bringing up. None of the classes left are really holdovers from Achaea (Indorani and Monks I guess?)...if anything, the vampire classes are the most unchanged throughout the years and would be most subject to being left behind by this supposed power creep. And I don't think you would ever make the argument that vampires are left behind by power creep.

As for this blocking stuff...well, as people have said, Templars can function as a doubleblock by themselves. They might not be a popular class but the tools are there already; you can't really balance around class popularity unless block just becomes a general skill or something. If everyone on the darkie side suddenly went Cabalist that doesn't mean Cabalists should get block too because the classes with block are now unpopular.

Sand Slice...yeah, I expressed before I had it used on me that I thought something countered only by a specific class is bleh. Same opinion on that still.

Seir

My numbers for axethrow were not off. Angwe tested with me and we got the numbers listed so unless axethrow is subjected to some insane diminishing once physical audits and defenses are raised, my numbers are fine.

Edit: As to the subject of vampires with Ezalor, they're not really legacy because they're not ancient compared to many skills and mechanics we still have in our skillsets since we inherited them from Achaea. Vampires have always been powerful as well. I can't really think of any time during my course of playing, or reviewing anything in the past where anyone said they were underpowered. They've just received tweaks in the form of Blackbiles going away and Bloodborn having to be toned down because they were originally ridiculous.

Ezalor

Right, and I'm not refuting your points, but basing them on power creep and legacy mechanics doesn't seem to be a valid argument at all. Almost all of these classes have gotten significant reworks/changes over the years so I don't think power creep is at all a factor in any of this. As I said, if anything the vampires, Cabalists, Indorani, and Monks seem to be the most unchanged/unbuffed throughout their history so if you really wanted to make a power creep argument it'd be in favour of the darkie side.

EDIT: Which is not to say -I- think power creep exists and darkies need buffs cause of it. Just pointing out that I don't think power creep is really a factor here.

Luna

It's the balance times that are off, I didn't test for damage. It shouldn't be 4 seconds at 167 speed axe.

Seir

@Ezalor: Fair enough.

@Luna: I'll take your word for it.

Illikaal

Tossing this out there as well: I'm fine with Teradrim having an adjacent shield strip ability. It requires sand to be in both rooms, and can easily be completely shut down by a Shaman. 

What I don't like is that the Javelin mastery, and how it interacts with empowerments. If I recall correctly, when the Javelin report got put up umpteen years ago, it was supposed to be empowerable with Blaze or Destruction for adjacent shield stripping purposes. This apparently isn't the case. Teradrim can maintain their adjacent shield strip, so long as Templars get their Blaze/Destruction empowerments to act as a shield penetrator. 

Angwe

I think this log speaks for itself.

This is what Spirit gets to deal with, while having no answer. Is this fair?

Seir

Inb4 shadow forum brigade (mainly Ilyon) comes back to tell you how wrong you are and how you're obviously not using your kit to the best of your ability with a bunch of red herring or strawman arguments.

Barda

I'm just going to point out you had five people hitting you. Shield stopped all the attacks except for once it was broken. I don't get what looks so bad about that, nobody is going to survive five people hitting them.

Seir

Except it's all at range, where there's no risk to you.

Barda

You can range fire back..? Hammers are adjacent room.

Moirean

He wasn't using his kit well, though. He's spamming writhe to make himself off balance when he has a friendly blocker, you guys didn't reflood, he didn't even have mass up and your templar didn't drop banishment, so ents were able to have a field day. 

Angwe

Yes, if everyone on our side was playing perfectly, I might have survived a little longer.

Now, lets count the ways that scenario could have gone poorly for your side!

Let's see, we all could have decided to play a Syssin that day. But we didn't. Lycanthrope serenade won't pull people into a flooded room, so that's out. Besides, we wouldn't survive your DPS. So..... hrngh.

Looks pretty low risk/high reward to me.

Seir

He didn't have to reflood, but there's no failure message for lure on the victim's end. If he DOESN'T try to writhe, he gets lured. If he does writhe, he's off balance. I don't really know how you expect a system to track when someone else is blocking either. Sounds like an overly complicated solution for a situation that shouldn't be as convoluted.

Templars also can't drop banishment. They don't have Rites.

Xiuhcoatl

Moirean said:

He wasn't using his kit well, though. He's spamming writhe to make himself off balance when he has a friendly blocker, you guys didn't reflood, he didn't even have mass up and your templar didn't drop banishment, so ents were able to have a field day. 

Also he wasn't dodging attacks from ranged. If he did the damage reduction from that alone would have made him last another round at least. Should try putting in an auto dodger for ranged/charging/melee depending on what class/abilities you're hit with. Dodge helps out so many times, you wouldn't BELIEVE IT.  

Edit: Also for the entire lure thing, you can almost entirely remove it from your system. As long as you know to sit when you're hit with it, flood the room, put up an icewall, throw yourself off balance somehow, you're not going to have anything happen to you. 

Seir

Xiuhcoatl: That's actually not true. I've done dodged range plenty of times. It doesn't do anything for dopplegangers and the difference in dodge chance is negligible.

Please stop posting false speculation.

Angwe

I was dodging ranged, actually.

Benedicto

Also, hound strips shield remotely. I got hit by that. Hound to strip and then cue the above log mentioned. Nasty combo all in all.

Seir

It's alright, we can use our equiv. of hound, doppleganger, lure, hammer throw/soul sacrifice...

Oh wait.

Angwe

Barda said:

You can range fire back..? Hammers are adjacent room.

Explain how my singular ability to throw a low damage axe back out of my entire team's lack of ranged offense has any relevance whatsoever to this conversation, please.

Moirean

Seir said:

He didn't have to reflood, but there's no failure message for lure on the victim's end. If he DOESN'T try to writhe, he gets lured. If he does writhe, he's off balance. I don't really know how you expect a system to track when someone else is blocking either. Sounds like an overly complicated solution for a situation that shouldn't be as convoluted.

You really should never writhe from lure. It's a horrible trigger that screws your uptime. Any form of failure clears the writhe, be that hitting a blocker, being in flood, sitting or being off balance. I always just ensured that I couldn't be in a moveable state - that's a far smarter solution than having your system keep you off-balance.

Forgot about Templars losing rites. That really was your big problem, aside from spamming himself off-bal - the chaos hound killing the shield. However, it only had one more hit left before it despawned, so he really should have survived that, as canopy stops star from killing shield, which means he'd have time to heal back up before we would be able to get another hound in. Also, hounds die in literally 2 hits, so they should be a priority for in-room attacks.