The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

Seir

@Moirean: You're missing my point. If you don't writhe, you get lured out at least two rooms. If you do writhe, you're off balance. It's not an immediate message of failure like beckon failing. No risk/high reward. There's no proof to the contrary.

Angwe

So, pausing my system to sit down is your solution? Or throwing myself off balance anyway?

Illikaal

Xiuhcoatl said:

Moirean said:

He wasn't using his kit well, though. He's spamming writhe to make himself off balance when he has a friendly blocker, you guys didn't reflood, he didn't even have mass up and your templar didn't drop banishment, so ents were able to have a field day. 

Also he wasn't dodging attacks from ranged. If he did the damage reduction from that alone would have made him last another round at least. Should try putting in an auto dodger for ranged/charging/melee depending on what class/abilities you're hit with. Dodge helps out so many times, you wouldn't BELIEVE IT.  

lol@ dodge having a 2 second cooldown on it. Dodge ranged won't suddenly make you Neo and dodge everything that's thrown at you. Also, dodge ranged doesn't matter with dopplegangers.

Seir said it, Templars don't have banishment, Noobrean. 

@Barda We only had a small handful of people there capable of using ranged combat. We also don't have any means of adjacent stripping shield, save for mind strip, which isn't reliable. You guys also didn't have to deal with what is essentially a ranged writheaff. We had the same problem with hangedman a year or so ago, and thank unicorns that got removed. 

For the record, when you're being lured by a vampire, it literally becomes a ranged writhe affliction. No outcaching, shielding, movement, offense, etc. Angwe was going to be in trouble either way you look at it. 

This brings me back to my previous point of how hard you can limit your opponent's actions (crowd control) while simultaneously cranking out tons of damage. Carnifex, Indorani, and Vampires are all breeding grounds for this. Firelords, decays, Hammer throws, Ranged Lure, meteors, etc. The horrendous in-room combos such as the ever notorious hangedman + carnifex impale and pole wrench, high dps from vampire frenzies, or even using scythes/bastard swords, etc. All of the above reasons are why these three classes have such a booming popularity, because they're just so good in today's meta. 

I don't know if, or when the administration will finally deal with the blatant problems in this game that have existed for years now, or if they ever will. Until the day of ranged combat redemption comes, more power to you, Bloodloch and Spinesreach. 

Ilyon

Seir said:

@Moirean: You're missing my point. If you don't writhe, you get lured out at least two rooms. If you do writhe, you're off balance. It's not an immediate message of failure like beckon failing. No risk/high reward. There's no proof to the contrary.

If lure fails to move you for any reason, its writhe affliction is removed.

Moirean

No, you don't have to pause your system. You just have to fight smart. You get the people who can block to block. If there aren't blockers, you drop an icewall and flood and stay off balance doing things which are beneficial, such as shielding or attacking them. Lure simply doesn't work if you are off-balance. Trust me, I learned how to do this very well when charge involved sitting in another room for windup and vamps would just lure you back - it's entirely possible to avoid lures if you keep up an active offense/defense and set your room up well.

Seir

Ilyon said:

Seir said:

@Moirean: You're missing my point. If you don't writhe, you get lured out at least two rooms. If you do writhe, you're off balance. It's not an immediate message of failure like beckon failing. No risk/high reward. There's no proof to the contrary.

If lure fails to move you for any reason, its writhe affliction is removed.

Again, missed my point. Glad I called the red herring.

Illikaal

Moirean said:

No, you don't have to pause your system. You just have to fight smart. You get the people who can block to block. If there aren't blockers, you drop an icewall and flood and stay off balance doing things which are beneficial, such as shielding or attacking them. Lure simply doesn't work if you are off-balance. Trust me, I learned how to do this very well when charge involved sitting in another room for windup and vamps would just lure you back - it's entirely possible to avoid lures if you keep up an active offense/defense and set your room up well.

You have fun keeping yourself off balance, Moirean, when dopplegangers are a decayin', firelords a burnin', hammers are a throwin', and arrows are a shootin'. It is entirely to keep yourself from being lured. Just enjoy dying from the all the ranged unicorns that's flying at you while you're off bal. 

Xiuhcoatl

Angwe said:

So, pausing my system to sit down is your solution? Or throwing myself off balance anyway?

You don't have to pause your system, unless it picks up you typed in sit and stops you from doing the command. Sitting will prevent you from moving and thus negate the affliction. Alternatively you could just have it so when you get afflicted with lure you sit down, wait like .25 seconds then stand. 

Aoi

Seir said:

Ilyon said:

Seir said:

@Moirean: You're missing my point. If you don't writhe, you get lured out at least two rooms. If you do writhe, you're off balance. It's not an immediate message of failure like beckon failing. No risk/high reward. There's no proof to the contrary.

If lure fails to move you for any reason, its writhe affliction is removed.

Again, missed my point. Glad I called the red herring.

Um... you missed her point too. Her point was to replace icewall if its removed, double-block if you can, and focus on other abilities to prevent yourself from being lured -RATHER- than writhing and putting yourself on balance. Why is he writhing each time if he hasn't recovered from the first one?

IF the room is flooded, dismount. If it's flooded or icewalled, lure is useless and can be ignored.

Edit: I'm blind.

Moirean

How is that missing the point? His main reason for dying was two-fold: his shield was stripped by hound and he couldn't reshield because he was off balance from his system making him writhe. If he had managed lure better and you guys had hit the hound, he would not have died.

As I said, he also didn't have mass and would have been pulled in by adduction had Saarlamen not been blocking - dying to that wouldn't have been surprising and we'd be going, "heh newb" so why is bad lure management treated any differently? 

Angwe

@Moirean As I already said, if everyone on my team had been playing perfectly, I might have survived a little longer. Your team has no such onus.

I must pause my system to sit. Hence the mention of it in response to your suggestion that I sit down when I start getting lusted. The only other solution you offered, save relying on my team (remember, we've established that they are infinitely fallible in a situation with no room for human error) is keeping myself off balance, which would defeat the purpose of not writhing in the first place. So, what is your point?

Moirean

Staying off balance to put up an icewall, flood or shield is far more useful than being off balance from writhing pointlessly. That really should be obvious.

Seir

You didn't acknowledge my point either. Do you have any idea how complex he'd have to make his system to recognize other people blocking, how many different triggers if they got moved, etc. etc. when your side is not subjected to any of that?

Beckon is a straight movement attempt. You know if it has failed, you know if it hasn't because it's immediate. You don't get that you can't afford to miss a beat when lure starts because it's the difference between getting lured one room or three.

Nearly every individual that has come from shadow to spirit has acknowledged this disparity with Kaeus chief among them even openly saying how ridiculous it is. You had Xavin, who used to fight me for ages about Lure and all the other abilities that shadow has finally come to acknowledge when he played on the other side for a change. I'm sick and tired of arguing this with people when they offer nothing in rebuttal save how spirit "is defensively oriented", or "you're not using your kit to the best of your ability" and how we're expected to play perfectly in order to beat the mechanics that are arrayed against us. We're not stupid and we understand our kits better than you probably do since, you know, we use them and test with them on a regular basis. I understand that you lot want to defend the abilities that some of you paid money for and invested in, but you really need to put your bias aside and acknowledge that a disparity has existed for ages and has favored your side considerably in the process.

Toz

In room you have traps. You have rites. You have templar off aura. You can have templar heal aura too. Vibes as well. Against a group like that, with heavy range, it might be better to rush them first. Alternatively, work on not letting them hit you. Does shadow have a ton of range? Sure. All of it has a counter. Does spirit side have room control? Sure. Does all of it have a counter? I wish.

Illikaal

In that instance, you had more than enough people to assign one to melting icewalls, another to keep parting the adjacent room flood, and (surprise) a Teradrim to use adjacent shield strip if it was necessary. But he didn't, because of the Chimera. Even if they'd killed the Chimera, your Teradrim would have started using the adjacent shield strip. 

I also don't know why people keep making suggestions when they obviously have had little experience dealing with situations like these. It's like a geologist major telling an english teacher how to do their job. Until I see you guys dealing with these scenarios, I don't see what you could possibly be presenting as a counter argument, other than obvious common theory. 

Everyone knows LoS combat and Lure are stopped by icewalls and flooding, blocking, etc. It becomes a problem When X, Y, and Z factors are introduced to completely negate those other previous solutions to the counters of Lure/Ranged combat, leaving you to deal with raw ranged combat, as if there wasn't a counter to begin with. Lets try thinking, people. 

Edit: @Toz Templar auras (the defensive ones) only work on the ally that you protect. You can only protect one at a time. Traps, in group fights, aren't that lethal. I know this, because I've participated in many team FFAs where I've had to kill a team with a Sentinel, and traps. 

Moirean

More generally, yes, there are errors, but putting up logs where people die from avoidable things or to conditions where death is basically a given aren't really helpful or clear illustrations of unbalance and can even be misleading. Eg I could have posted me dying in like 15 seconds to Benedicto BBTing off someone else proning me - that doesn't mean Benedicto or BBT is OP; it means that I had a whole team of people keeping me prone.

Imho, if this discussion is going to be fruitful, the logs need to be fairly close to optimal fighting, as I don't think we should balance the team PK system on teams who aren't performing at their best. 

Seir

Why would we rush when we hold the room? You also top us in terms of DPS. Nearly all of spirit's classes require a wind up in their offense before they can start dishing out damage.

Edit: This is me responding to strawman, so I'm going back to the original subject: the amount of ranged.

Angwe

@Toz How are any of those things going to help us if we rush into your crazy DPS? You can't move traps. Rites are only relevant if you have a Luminary with you to cast them. Ditto vibes and Ascendril. Shadow's counter to our room control is having no good reason to go into them, as they have 100 ways to either bring us to them or kill us from range. That's, y'know... kinda what we've been talking about this whole time?

Toz

If you guys want to stand in a room and die 1 by 1 that is fine with me, I guess.

Toz

@angwe So I get this straight: you died. You are upset you died. You would have lost a rush too? Sometimes you should just leave then, man. If they outdps you, out-range you, and your group apparently consists of classless newbies with no useful abilities other than newbiekick, not sure why you expect anyone to have trouble killing you.

Edit: actually reading again, my favorite argument submitted so far is that assuming your team is competent is bad. Teammates who respond to situations appropriately? In MY group pk?!

Illikaal

Toz said:

If you guys want to stand in a room and die 1 by 1 that is fine with me, I guess.

Considering when they tried to zergrush us in what was at first a 4v7 (we had the 4), and THEY got worked over, they brought 3 more, we had 2 more, and then resorted to ranged combat. 

Toz

Nerf spirit DPS, clearly op.

Angwe

@Toz Jump on Kog, do a lesser or two and then come back.

Toz

Rather not deal with all the rage that goes on Dion when we lose. Maybe it is better now, but last I played when we lost, certain people liked to rage at everyone else for the next hour or two.

Orus

Thought they were too busy arguing over who was worse for the game.

Seir

Please stop validating Toz's off-topic arguments with a response. It's trolling.

Suffice to say, there has not been one argument of substance so far that validates why Shadow has the mechanics they have while Spirit is forced to endure it with little to no reasonable response. There's nothing equivalent to lure, doppleganger, hound, hangedman, you have the guild that controls archery in your tether, two forms of mind strip, you out-DPS us with Carnifex and Vampires when Sentinels were considered "too powerful" because of their damage/affliction potential yet Carnifex can reach a threshold faster than Quickfoot and Vampires aren't even subjected to shield like every other affliction class. It's dumb, it's stupid, and it's discouraging because I see liaisons arguing this constant red herring crap in order to deflect away from the actual issue.

Angwe

That's really cute. So, anyone going to refute our arguments with something valid?

Toz

...OK let me be serious then for a second. No one is going to take you seriously when you claim all counterpoints as trolling, Calipso. Nor is anyone going to when you do things like equate a 1.88 base attack to a 2.3 base that requires 9 hits in a row to reach 2s.

Seir

Toz said:

...OK let me be serious then for a second. No one is going to take you seriously when you claim all counterpoints as trolling, Calipso. Nor is anyone going to when you do things like equate a 1.88 base attack to a 2.3 base that requires 9 hits in a row to reach 2s.

Counterpoints require numbers and facts (like the ones I listed at the beginning of this thread), not throwing out snark in the hope of getting a rise out of folks and detract from the argument. No one has presented anything that would be reasonable or viewed as compromise. They're too concerned with maintaining a disparity that exists in their favor. One that I know for a fact that you've even acknowledged while on Kog before you played Toz.

Not to mention, I don't really expect anyone to take me seriously for the sole fact of "SEIR IS TRYING TO SAY WE'RE TOO STRONG. CLEARLY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT!" despite having nearly every reputable fighter that has gone from shadow to spirit come to acknowledge my points once they've been subjected to it and see how different it is between spirit and shadow as far as the mechanics available to both sides.

Illikaal

Toz said:

Nerf spirit DPS, clearly op.

It wasn't the DPS. It was the bad curing of the enemy team, Considering Saarlamen was the one who pick up six kills via retribution.