The Spirit/Shadow Skill Disparity

Ezalor

Because some classes would get downright broken if they got block. Have to keep in mind it's also an offensive skill for keeping a target from escaping.

Serrice

Imagine fighting in darts. Now imagine not being to walk away because a Sentinel has block.

Haven

Hmm. What about tumble, fly, panic mount, leap dir, etc?

Serrice

impale, tentacle, kill the mount, or just fight indoors. I'm not dismissing all of those out of hand (lord knows I abuse all of those except tumble and panic mount), but a smart Sentinel should account for all of those. Just like a keen combatant account for them when fighting against a Sentinel (hi Luna and Xarian).

Illikaal

Also, a lot of classes with strong affliction resistances and passive curing (Shamans, Luminaries) would be completely broken with fitness in survival. 

Haven

Traps work indoors?

Not sure how long it takes to kill a mount or if criticals still apply to them, but if I walked into a one-exit room with a Sent and traps were going off while they went for my mount, I'd immediately gtfo and rethink how I'm going to engage or draw the Sent out to eliminate the advantage.

Although I suppose flood rings would be a problem. Don't think you can leap/panic out of or into flooded areas. *goes and tests*

Edit: k, tested it. You can panic mount out and into flooded areas but you cannot leap out/into water.

http://pastehtml.com/view/czwqxl58q.html

So I'm not sure what classes would really be too powerful with block?

Seir

Activate Disperse. Leap over the Sent's head. Profit.

Giving Block to Sentinel wouldn't be a big deal.

Serrice

what if you got dragged into a one exit room? What if you had no choice but to engage in a one exit room? You can think about all the scenarios you want, but at the end of the day, so is your opponent. Anyways, we're being silly and arguing about hypotheticals at the moment. Back to the original topic at hand!

Seir

say Duanathar or I'd just spam shield until the darts ran out. Not really a big deal. But yes, back to the subject at hand.

Illikaal

Fighting a Shaman with Block in a 1 room exit would be pretty gnarly. 

Xiuhcoatl

In terms of VIABLE pulling methods there's really only the grove displacement one IMO that can work on a singular person. Almost all other methods are stopped by flood and being unmounted, monolith, or flood. Only ability that can just rip you from a location. Also icewalls only seem to stop it FROM advancing into the room. Once it's in the room it seems like open season on you. Of course, that might just be me not constantly watching. However, that's in a 1v1. Everything else to me at least is entirely too gimmicky to be considered anything else than someone being a dick. 

In terms of ranged abilities I think it's pretty even. The fact doppleganger are entirely negated by banishment makes it pretty so so in terms of both their hindering and damage. All that leaves is star which needs a better damage breakdown in terms of equivalence to bow meteor damage. If it's dealing the same meteor damage as a level 3 bow with meteor as 21 dex that would be broken. However, with the recent nerfs to indorani might be needed as their affliction and hindering has been almost entirely removed. Would it be too much to get some people to coordinate exact damage comparison of the two? Also to add thrown weapons into the mix. Javelins can still do good damage if they didn't get nerfed with the same nerf as spears/tridents. Also being one room out in flood can prevent most movement abilities from screwing them. 

Also maybe  a better breakdown of the damages in general. nothing was said of the stats of the person using the ability or the resistance of the people getting hit, nor their maximum health to get if 500 damage against someone super squishy and poppable like Seir or someone with a large health pool and innately tanky like Moirean. 

Daskalos

Indorani hindering, other than -ranged- hindering, hasn't been nerfed. What the hell are you smoking?

(just because you don't like the contents of my post on the subject of a shadow skillset\class -you- brought up doesn't make this post off topic, you unicorn.)

Xiuhcoatl

Edit: Replied to an off topic post, my bad. 

Ilyon

Daskalos said:

Indorani hindering, other than -ranged- hindering, hasn't been nerfed. What the hell are you smoking?

My understanding is that he is referring to the loss of off-balance screech.

Xavin

Even if that's the case, I think most -rational- people will agree that screech shouldn't be able to be performed while off-balance anyway.

Seir

While I'm pretty sure Screech is the ability that knocks someone off equilibrium if they're not deaf, can someone confirm?

@Haven: Sentinel regaining block has been in discussion for a long time and there was consensus in the past that they would make the most sense to get it. Noose alone isn't a very effective engage unless you have lots of time to set up before hand. I can see Lycanthrope benefiting from it greatly, but we need to avoid giving one side a disproportionate number of blockers since they already have plenty that can. I'd say give it to Sentinel and/or Shaman and/or the new Spirit class that will come out Soon(TM).

Xavin

Strips deafness if the target is deaf as well.


And the statement 'pretty much all of their hindering has been removed' in regards to Indorani is lulzy as heck, to be quite honest. Hello, hangedman.

Seir

Have people been using it? The only class that I know of that has it are Cabalist and Indorani. Are they using it in conjunction with Tarot or something?

Illikaal

While I get that this whole thread is about skill disparity, I'll just reiterate what I said earlier. There IS some level of disparity, but it's not to some insane extent. 

We had established at some point that:

1. Ranged combat risk/reward needs balancing. Currently, there is a high reward with little to no risk for anyone using it under appropriate circumstances.

2. Any ranged attack shouldn't be able to compete with something someone can do in-room (Such as an arrow doing more damage and being faster than a Stormhammer, for example.) 

3. Any ranged attack shouldn't be able to kill someone on its own, essentially autobashing the target to death. This translates into attacks never exceeding a % of the target's maximum health. 

The only real problem I see with ranged combat is artifact bows, being capable of hitting someone with a 49% cutting audit and over 6k health for 3438% of their Maximum health. I can only imagine that the arrow would hit for somewhere around 50% on those who have the absolute lowest audits in the game, if not more. Remove these, and 90% of the unicorns about ranged combat will go away.

Seir

I forgot to list what I felt would be good solutions for Aetolia group combat in the long run, as well as efforts to address the disparity:

1.) A proportional ranged abilities on both sides that are equal in strength. Spirit needs an answer to ranged tactics as using Weaponry alone isn't cutting it and rather silly. Right now, we mostly can only just stand there and take it unless we have an artifact bow. Sentinel will be gaining archery in some form, so that's an improvement. It doesn't need to be a carbon copy of Doppleganger.

2.) Pretty much everyone I've spoken to on both sides is in agreement that Lure in its current incarnation needs to go. Vampires were notoriously built to be silly back then with cases like Blackbiles and old Bloodborn. Where individuals differ is what it should become. I honestly don't care what mechanic it becomes so long as it is no longer a long range entangle-beckon. Beckon is arguably powerful in its own right and would be an adequate substitute for a Lure mechanic.

3.) This hasn't been brought up, but I think focus fire needs to be addressed in order for group combat to become something more than everyone just converging on a person. I would suggest taking the Omen crown's effect and making it baseline. The more people trying to hit you, the greater your chances to dodge OR make the mists effect baseline and just label it as taking advantage of someone on the battlefield via superior dexterity and maneuvering. You could also tinker with the idea of individuals doing less damage the more they focus on one person. This could encourage group combat to become more tactical and not about who can bring more numbers.


Edit: Ah, I also want to mention that it would be nice if spirit could get abilities that go through prismatic barrier. We don't really have any that don't require a mind lock while dwhisper and tweak both go through prismatic barrier and Carnifex can just straight strip my 500 credit artifact with a non-trans ability in Deathlore. Yeah, that's another source of disparity.

Illikaal

Shaman's Leafstorm goes through it, and I believe Illimunation's flame(?) ability goes through, meaning both Daru and Luminaries can do it. There's also mind command (which requires a mindlock, sadly) and force. I don't know if Templars or Ascendril have abilities that go through it, but i'm going to assume yes as I vaguely recall Razmael saying at some point that Sentinels are the only class that do not have an ability to bypass lyre. 

Now despite most classes having at least one ability that bypasses the lyre, NONE of them can just strip it outright, except a Carnifex's Soul Erode, which is silly to me. 

Ilyon

Pretty much everything in Telepathy bypasses prismatic. Mages have erode (whatever the ascendril copy is called), not sure on templars but there's something.

Carnifex erode is a weird outlier, yes.

As was already pointed out, this 'disparity' is largely about the spirit side being more defensively oriented - it has a bunch of defensive options not available to the shadow one (traps, banishment rites, tents, canopy, etc) - equalizing offense is nice and all, but these may then need to be looked at as well - it's definitely not as simple as adding something to some spirit class.

Most shadow classes rely on artibows as well for ranged offense.

I don't think that lure is as big an issue as it's made out to be lately, but switching it to beckon is fine as well.

The mist effect would just be annoying for everyone, a better answer lies in providing more group-oriented tactical effects - which is already happening.

Daskalos

The argument against us being defensive oriented is that with Teradrim's AoI, Carnifex\Necromancy Chains\Gravehands, Blocking in your biggest classes, et cetera, once someone enters your group they're pretty much going to die. You also have the ability to push out a whole lot more damage initially, as many of our classes are 'windup' classes except for outliers like me with my lightning. We can eventually do big damage,  but that's provided we survive the initial focus firing.

Rites have, more or less, been negated to the point that you can't argue they're anymore powerful than what you get, other than banishment which is a counter to your ranged combat. Warding doesn't work anymore at lesser and also was nerfed so that it hits -everyone-, not just enemies. The defensive rites, other than Well Being which prevents hunger whoring, are gone. Damnation hurts us as much as it hurts you, and Piety is a gravehands clone with a longer timer. They run on the exact same formula. Groves, as they once were, are gone. Traps hit the -first- person that trips them, but not the entourage. Both sides have Vibes.

With the Life side having lost their defensive advantage, and it more or less being equal, it's time either a) the life side got a ranged offense that is equitable to what the shadow side gets or b) the shadow side loses some of their ranged offense. 

Ezalor

Just wanted to reiterate my stance about the silliness of having skills (Sand Slice) not have any counter besides having a counter class present. Atrapoema (rogue Teradrim) spammed Sand Slice at us yesterday and there was really nothing we could do about it on the darkie side (besides find a rogue Undead Shaman?). I imagine it'd be equally as annoying for lifers when they don't happen to have a Shaman online.

Seir

Yeah, I really don't know where you're getting this "defensively"-oriented thing from. One thing that Daskalos didn't mention was that traps were also downgraded twice. They fade on log off and can't just set and forget like they used to. While not exactly defensive utility, your classes also out-audit ours. As a Bloodborn with your scythe stance, you're competing with a Templar in full plate in terms of audit (which is silly).

Groves are gone, which were largely our only (albeit way too absurdedly powerful) means of really competing with Shadow because our side suffers from having the most legacy skillsets and from immense power creep compared to yours.

Seir

Or Sand Slice can just be made to have reasonable counters like Vine Grab and not act as a long-distance erode (which is what it basically is). It should be stopped by shielding and not strip it. You already have Monk available to you if you want to Mind Strip, you don't need two variants of it.

Illikaal

Seems like everyone is afraid to say it, so I'm gonna go ahead and say it. 

There are no Teradrim, because people don't want to play Teradrim. There are no Shamans, because people don't want to play Shamans. The reason nobody wants to play a Teradrim or a Shaman is because both classes have difficult, slow-buildup mechanics that are otherwise frowned upon in group fights. Darkies don't want to use Teradrim, because Praenomen/Bloodborn/Indorani/Carnifex are just so good for groups since they have incredible up-front damage without warning, and crowd control along with it (Hangedman/Carnifex skewer/wrench). Honestly, if I had a Bloodlochian character, it'd DEFINITELY be one of those classes, and not a Teradrim. I'd absolutely love to have that sort of power in group fights. 

But then, outside of group fights, you're stick with small skirmishes, and or 1v1s. People don't like having to know each skill of their entire skillsets, and having to know how/when to use them at the right time. If you just spam one ability to win, it won't work in either case of a Shaman or a Teradrim. If you use 3 skills over and over trying to cycle through them, you won't do much more than just annoying your opponent, and never kill them. Both classes require a decent amount of setup to crank out damage equal to/greater than that of a Praenomen/Bloodborn/Indorani/Carnifex. As I said, I don't blame anyone for doing so, because it's so good. Play to win, right? 

I said all that to say: This whole argument about "Baww, this skill is OP and only countered by Teradrim/Shaman." just needs to go. Both classes are easily accessible to both sides, and someone better man the unicorns up and start playing the classes. It won't have to be a matter of "Well this fight sucks because we lack a Teradrim/Shaman." Frankly, I've seen more Vampires, Carnifex, and Indorani at leyline fights than I can count. Is it THAT big of a deal for one of them to pick up Teradrim? The same goes for all the Sentinels, (few)Templars, Luminaries, and Daru at leyline fights that don't have/want to pick up Shaman.

Supposedly, all the classes are going to move towards a slow-buildup offense, much like Shamans and Teradrim have done so far. You may as well start getting used to it now, and stop using the high-damage-from-out-of-the-blue classes as such a crutch. 

Daskalos

I have a problem with people that have only ever played Shadow saying 'oh, these skills are fine' when they've never had to deal with them in a real world application. Ezalor's post kind of proves it - he's now experienced Sand Slice (and don't get me started on Duiran using the tether loophole that made that even possible) and seen how annoying it is.

When Pit was changed, more Shadow side players were getting pitted than life side ones. The people that get lusted the most are those that switch sides and never had to deal with it.

When Shadow is grouped up, we all stand there trying to pull them out of their room, because if we rush without massive numbers, most of the time we're going to get focus fired like mad and die super fast. If we get close enough to pull out, we usually end up getting pulled IN or get destroyed by meteor\star\dopple\hammerthrow\arrows\whatever - because we don't have that level of pull. Plus the only Shaman we have is Illidan, and there are quite a few more Teradrim, so add Sand Slice to that list.

Ilyon

Ezalor said:

Just wanted to reiterate my stance about the silliness of having skills (Sand Slice) not have any counter besides having a counter class present. Atrapoema (rogue Teradrim) spammed Sand Slice at us yesterday and there was really nothing we could do about it on the darkie side (besides find a rogue Undead Shaman?). I imagine it'd be equally as annoying for lifers when they don't happen to have a Shaman online.

Teradrim are countered by themselves as well, so having another Teradrim would have worked just as well.

The main two reasons why I don't use Teradrim much are its lack of survivability (class has decent audit, but that's about it), and the fact that whenever I switch to another class, people inevitably start wanting BB rituals  (that's why I made that praenomen spec report, glare@Keroc) .

(and off-topic, but Duiran accepting the most anti-nature themed class is really hilarious)

(edit) @Daskalos - eh, we had this Spinesreach vs. Bloodloch animosity going for months, not like we were never on the receiving end of our own skills.

Daskalos

Duiran should be slapped around for fighting with a Teradrim as it goes against the tethers and is a loophole, nothing more. That would be like me helping Loch but keeping Luminary. IC'ly, Dask has walked away from 2 fights now because he refuses to fight next to a Teradrim.