Owned Part II

Daskalos

Also, because someone is going to say 'but X has artifact and you beat them' - this is the level of investment I'm talking about"
A pair of gauntlets:

*******************************************************************************
Power                Value                Tradein             
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
heal_bonus (3)       2000cr               1332cr
zephyr               250cr                166cr
cache_extension (3)  1000cr               666cr
resolve              400cr                266cr
strength (3)         2500cr               1666cr
celerity             600cr                400cr
sustenance           550cr                366cr
endurance            250cr                166cr
stability            250cr                166cr
constitution (3)     2000cr               1332cr
clarity (3)          800cr                532cr
overkill_extend      100cr                66cr
mind_assault         700cr                466cr
enemy_expand (3)     400cr                266cr
whitesight           150cr                100cr
web_evasion          800cr                532cr
heal_mana_bonus (3)  2000cr               1332cr
culling              700cr                466cr
ally_expand (3)      400cr                266cr
magic_potence (3)    1600cr               1066cr
intelligence (3)     2500cr               1666cr
equilibrium_recovery 850cr                566cr
willpower            250cr                166cr
dexterity (3)        2500cr               1666cr
mana_boon            1000cr               666cr
lifevision           750cr                500cr
critical_chance (3)  1200cr               800cr
hunt_luminary (3)    800cr                532cr
quick_harvest        300cr                200cr
fracture_alert       60cr                 40cr
havens_sense         200cr                132cr
skilled_enchanter    250cr                166cr
protection           500cr                332cr
beast_claws (3)      1600cr               1066cr
handtohand_damage (3 1600cr               1066cr
magic_protection     750cr                500cr
xpgain (3)           1000cr               666cr
darkness             100cr                66cr
light                100cr                66cr
charisma             200cr                132cr
illusion             500cr                332cr
flight               400cr                266cr
wormhole_warp        800cr                532cr
venom_blood          100cr                66cr
shroud               800cr                532cr
elusion              2000cr               1332cr
divining             60ic                 40ic
*******************************************************************************
Total credit cost:       38560
Total credit tradein:    25706
Total iron coin cost:    60
Total iron coin tradein: 40

A pair of draconic wings:

*******************************************************************************
Power                Value                Tradein             
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aboveclouds_flight   2000cr               1332cr
enhancement (3)      1400cr               932cr
regeneration         700cr                466cr
mana_regeneration    700cr                466cr
*******************************************************************************
Total credit cost:       4800
Total credit tradein:    3200
Total iron coin cost:    0
Total iron coin tradein: 0

A holy emblem of righteousness:

*******************************************************************************
Power                Value                Tradein             
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
devotion_boon        500cr                332cr
spark_boon           500cr                332cr
spirit_anchor        100cr                66cr
polymath             750cr                500cr
*******************************************************************************
Total credit cost:       1850
Total credit tradein:    1232
Total iron coin cost:    0
Total iron coin tradein: 0

The full list, minus casks\tokens


Artifact List
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8118    A ring of the flood                     Being held by Daskalos
11384   Peripleko's Eye                         Being held by Daskalos
12368   An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
13180   A secure brass keyring                  Being held by Daskalos
13740   A luminous eyepatch                     Being held by Daskalos
26707   A Wheel of Fates pipe                   Being held by Daskalos
27372   A silver and gold ring                  Being held by Daskalos
28803   A venantium carving knife               Being held by Daskalos
36242   An anaxagorite-encrusted buckler        Being held by Daskalos
49780   The Searing Stamp of the Seraph         Being held by Daskalos
52170   A jewel-encrusted sacrificial dagger    Being held by Daskalos
55972   A pair of whirring diffusal goggles     Being held by Daskalos
66823   The star chart of Elenina               Being held by Daskalos
68105   A reinforced tower shield               Being held by Daskalos
68126   A compass-inlaid ilmenite bracer        Being held by Daskalos
81847   An entwined Glyph of the Eld'akathai    Being held by Daskalos
92655   An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
93084   A pair of draconic wings                Being held by Daskalos
94255   A simple iron and stone pendant         Being held by Daskalos
94319   An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
95137   An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
104929  A wyrmskin pack                         Being held by Daskalos
108783  A wyvern's tail                         Being held by Daskalos
109081  A construction kit                      Four Corners on Nordau Street
124575  An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
125916  An Iosai lyre                           Being held by Daskalos
130464  A pair of elegant malachite-hued trouserBeing held by Daskalos
137562  A gem of cloaking                       Being held by Daskalos
143315  An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
143317  An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
154622  An ethereal ember                       Being held by Daskalos
156543  A quiver of Cthalut                     Being held by Daskalos
157395  A homing pigeon                         Being held by Daskalos
157866  A bottomless letter satchel             Being held by Daskalos
168095  A gem of transmutation                  Being held by Daskalos
168760  A length of emberite prayer beads       Being held by Daskalos
174852  A snowglobe of Spinesreach              Being held by Daskalos
180955  An ornately-carved ivory pipe           Being held by Daskalos
186195  Izu-Ari's Dice                          Being held by Daskalos
192000  A glass of neverending eggnog           Being held by Daskalos
192022  A Selunic weaponbelt                    Being held by Daskalos
192236  A holy emblem of righteousness          Being held by Daskalos
200865  A barrel of inviolability               Being held by Daskalos
209382  A deep red boomerang                    Inside of "weaponbelt192022"
218320  A clarion eyeglass                      Being held by Daskalos
235296  The Parasol of Privacy                  Being held by Daskalos
257137  The Resolute Hammer                     Being held by Daskalos
257622  A ylem-binding gauntlet of the Parxian OBeing held by Daskalos
260727  A golden idol depicting a Kelki         Being held by Daskalos
261685  A bag of seeds                          Being held by Daskalos
265122  A hunter's lupine darkbow               Being held by Daskalos
270278  A clockwork craft gnome                 Being held by Daskalos
132062  A tactician's handbook                  Being held by Daskalos
235244  A focus of remembrance                  Being held by Daskalos
278720  A Celestine rune of empowerment         Inside of "scimitar262300"
278709  A Celestine rune of empowerment         Inside of "scimitar262306"
55139   A serrated rune                         Inside of "scimitar262306"
76261   A serrated rune                         Inside of "scimitar262300"
221828  An amulet of the underrealms            Being held by Daskalos
272059  A wand of portals                       Being held by Daskalos
96396   A white soulstone                       Being held by Daskalos
274217  An iron-wrought spyglass                Being held by Daskalos
283223  A Banner of Dominance                   Being held by Daskalos
278282  A venom rag                             Being held by Daskalos
131052  A pair of gauntlets                     Being held by Daskalos
284277  A Wand of the Charmer                   Being held by Daskalos
63008   A Ring of Translocation                 Being held by Daskalos
57304   A Torc of Vitality                      Being held by Daskalos
27959   The Elindes Talisman                    Being held by Daskalos
122129  A gem of destabilization                Being held by Daskalos
116637  A pair of weighted shoes                Being held by Daskalos
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

Lin

I knew he'd find an excuse to post the list.

Daskalos

I don't know what you're talking about! (I thought about going to all the artifact shops and just posting the wares list, but then realized I don't own a moneypouch or the undead stuff )

Ezalor

Actually in terms of your damage artis vs my defensive artis, while you do have everything possible to add to your damage, I also have everything possible to tank your damage (minus the Dice, which would add some con if it hit the right roll). I also have +10% electricity audit due to vampire stats, mend, and the unique ability to use shift against you since Astralblur exists.

With all that I could tank your damage so long as I mended all the time and occasionally shifted as well. Other classes, no matter how similarly artied, wouldn't be able to at all. The issue with hindering is that passive curing makes it very hard to actually accomplish. Limb break classes may be able to get somewhere with hindering but they're also typically the squishiest classes in the game to compensate.

Also, you weren't using your class's full damage capabilities either (ask Isto sometime how to hit even harder). Had you been, I am pretty sure even with 99999999999999999999999999 credits no one would be able to survive more than about 10 seconds in a room with you. 

EDIT: Actually no, I could have added 15% electric resistance to my arti shield. This would allow me to comfortably tank your lightnings as Bloodborn as long as you weren't chaining it with firebomb as well. Arti shield would only, however, put other classes on the same level as a non-arti shielded vampire as Epicurus + vamp resist is the same. Also firebomb hits me for 2.8k damage so had you been comboing your lightnings with that, I doubt the shield resist would have made a difference. To be fair, Ascendrils/Sciomancers can do it even harder than Luminaries since they can choose their staffcast element to bypass shield resists but hopefully the rework solves that damage issue.

Daskalos

If you mean firebomb, while useful, it's good for a burst, but not a sustained withering down.

Lin

OOOOOOOOOH IT'S ON

Ezalor

It doesn't need to be sustained! You knock off 2.8k of my hp at the start of a fight (and by the time it fires you have eq back so you can lightning as it hits too), and I have to leave the room or die very fast to eating lightnings alone after that. Would do less to a non-vampire but the lightnings would also hurt more.

Could just leave the room every time firebomb started until you ran out of spark but resource attrition is about the worst type of PK there is. Don't think anybody enjoys that.

Moirean

The last time I fought Daskalos he tried pushing damage on me. I hangedman every time he did lightening, so we eventually moved on to other tactics. ^_^

Arbre

Lin said:

I knew he'd find an excuse to post the list.

His sig goes really well with it too.

Kaeus

Just as a note, I intentionally built a stack that had paralysis and magic impaired at the top to fight you and Illidan (I knew I'd have to contend against heavy damage offenses that were magic based), and yet you still autobashed me to death. Granted I found a flaw that slowed me down a bit, I still would not have been able to survive doing even 1.97 dsk's of curare/colocasia. 

There was even a round or two during our fight that magic impaired stuck, unfortunately though you are able to easily outcure my afflictions and I had no other means to do almost anything besides trying to get my pants lightning'd off.

Illikaal

Normally, lightning would have been easy to deal with via shielding, etc. But due to the nature of the Delosian duel inflicting bloodlust after a while, it's only a matter of time before anyone would get bashed to death. 

For the entirety of that duel, at 6380 max HP and a 58% lightning audit, I got hit for 22% of my max HP every 3 seconds, and another 8% from demons (I don't know the time on it). I was able to shield and stall long enough to get Daskalos set up for an omen, but after all that work, I only succeeded in almost killing him, his vitality artifact being the thing to save him. Even popping nature thorncoat, and nature renewal as often as possible, it still wasn't enough to keep up with the damage. The sheer damage alone forced me to play 100% defensively, and even then I couldn't slam him because of his boots stopping him from going prone. I lasted a very long time, but that was only due to his malfunctioning absolver. He could have absolved me several times in that fight, because I had to pop serenity at repeatedly just to keep myself at sustainable health levels. Between the powerful passive curing that Luminaries have and me having to play completely defensively, he never had to use any active hindering such as an -intended- Luminary offennse via limb breaks, or just affliction pushing into high damage overwhelms. I couldn't ever stick any affs on him to slow him down any, and he didn't even have to bliss himself. 

That being said, artifacts have caused a huge issue since the beginning of time. That's why you've got Conner going around just about autobashing most unartied people, or even lightly artied people to death as a Bloodborn, Monk, etc. That's why Daskalos just lightning spams most people to death. That's why Templars slap people for 20% raw dsk's when they're artied. I don't know why there are easily abusable autobashing routes in this game when all of the above mentioned classes quite literally don't need the ability to autobash. Templars have a really strong Retribution route, Luminaries have strong affliction pushing, etc. Artifacts just make it unnecessary. 

Daskalos

Alright, let me see if I read this right:

A unique artifact (vitality) stopped you from killing me with Omen, and another unique artifact (boots) stopped you from slowing me down how you wanted. Because otherwise Omen would of killed me, you would have gone on to win the duel, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, and you wouldn't be on here whining because my investment gave me an edge over you. There's a reason I've bought what I've bought. There's a reason I've spent 10,000 credits in the last two auctions combined.

Also, who are you to judge what an 'intended' Luminary offense is? As a wise Luminary, the limb break routine is too slow to capitalize on and is designed to be a boon for the dexterous statpack. I know this because I wrote the liaison report that got it approved. I also had to use my affliction route on Ezalor because the damage route wasn't working. With everything I have invested. It wasn't enough. Not against a Bloodborn.

You know why I pushed full damage? Because I've heard you on the forums talk about how 'squishy' Shamans are and I figured I could handle everyone in the duel except you, Ezalor, and Moirean. So I decided, before it began to go for what my artifacts give me the biggest advantage in - damage - which also happens to be your biggest weakness, instead of using one of my affliction routes. Moirean and Ezalor would be trouble, but the only thing I knew about Shamans were 'Shamans squishy'. At least I've fought Bloodborn\Indorani enough to know what I'm doing. I was smart about how I fought. Ezalor was smart in how he fought, and I guarantee you next time he'll go in with hearts\bullseyes so he doesn't run out of willpower.  You almost beat me. Another 5 minutes and I was out of spark and then my lightning is gone. Any other Luminary, without the half spark artifact, would of been out long before that.

But Illidan, remember, you've never been able to beat me with any regularity. The best you usually could do was tie, as I'm sure you remember the duels between you, me, and Sibatti to become Damariel's champion. And the fact that none of us could beat the other in the timelimits of a standard arena spar.

 

 

 

 

Illikaal

Except that time I knocked you out during the first Knockout beta, and you proceeded to say that Omen was OP. There was also the time Serrice beat you in the last Delosian duel. That's also the point, because Shamans are -not- squishy, at all. I don't know where you even heard such a statement, but it wasn't from me. We also never got around to the duels for becoming Damariel's champion, ever. Shaman was also not released at that point. Also, the only reason a Luminary would go wise is for lightning spam. It's already been proven that Dex Luminary is worlds better. 

Nobody's whining about your victory. Congrats on winning. It's just that nobody likes being autobashed to death by a winbutton that requires 0 talent, and a giant wallet. 

Daskalos

I was going to respond to you, Illidan, but it's clear you just want to be a giant unicorn and throw out insults. So instead, I'll leave you with this:

 

 

 

Illikaal

If you take buying to win as an insult, then be my guest. 

Alexina

Let's just remove damage from the game then no one will ever die to it.

Kaeus

Alexina said:

Let's just remove damage from the game then no one will ever die to it.

Can't say I would be terribly disappointed! =p

Illikaal

The problem isn't damage in the first place. It is, was, and will forever be how hard artifacts cause damage to scale in this game. 

Seir

Or just make damage attacks largely insignificant without affliction buildup. If most fights are being resolved via bashing people to death, there's an inherent flaw with how combat is. Unfortunately, I don't see it changing any time soon given that some classes like Mage and Carnifex are supposed to have a pure damage route.

Pure damage classes don't work in any game. When you have to compare the amount of effort that affliction classes have to go through when it comes to affliction tracking, pressure, and survival compared to damage classes that only have to spam their bashing macro, the disparity is pretty unfortunate.

How do you fix it? By making all classes based around afflictions and basing their damage potential around afflictions. This will not only assist in balancing out one v. one combat, but also make group combat a bit more than hinder the target caller and focus bash the target to death.

I'd just like to add that I believe most of the problem is due to stat scaling though. Ever since the audit changes, I've noticed that stat scaling has become more of a pronounced issue than it was previously. I was able to compete back in the day without having to resort to buying Level 3 sip bonus artifacts and the like, now I'm lucky if I don't get bashed to death no matter what class I'm in.

Kaeus

The whole draw to this game for me (in terms of combat) has always been the complex affliction system. If you can simply bypass that with a fat wallet, then all the draw to it is lost for myself.

The only class I've enjoyed a "damage" route is Shaman, largely because it is far different from simply spamming the same attack over and over and requires something more to pull it off. Omen is a great example of damage potential focused around afflictions and I really hope new class revamps follow in the way Shaman was designed if Damage is to be the desired route to kill someone.

Xavin

Damage scaling is a pretty huge problem yeah. There're some crazy examples of it - look at things like archery and weapon throwing. Considering most thrown weapons scale to dex rather than strength, you can get some absurdly quick throws that deal a whole world of hurt.

Corlin

Been recently exploring the other routes available to luminaries, since there's a slim chance I'll ever have the credits to bash people to death, and I'm finding it difficult.

If I'm dext, for a limb route, my chastens are slower. My shield attacks are faster, though.

If I'm wise, to lessen the eq cost of various things, my shield attacks are mud.

I'm trying to find where the balance lies, the various routes available. How, for example, one might stack kelp as a luminary, with the goal of going for hellsight. We've got access to only a couple of the kelp afflictions, meaning a full kelp stack probably isn't happening. So.. goldenseal stack, leading to kelp? Maybe a lobelia stack, leading the same place?

I know afflicting is supposed to be viable for a luminary, but just looking at the class abilities, I'm stuck wondering how they even manage to push mana use. Self-pity and stupid only go so far.

Edit - What I'm saying is, I can understand why he chooses to just bash people to death, when he can do it. Not saying one way or another if I agree with it, but.. it's the 'obvious' route.

Ezalor

Dex + Crown is my guess, I don't know the offensive capabilities of the class too well though or their aff selection/balance times. You drain mana through focus/recon/Rites/bleeding from Overwhelm.

Daskalos

We can build a decent goldenseal route, but a kelp stack and ash stack aren't quite there. If you can cure our one, obvious curing route, then the rest becomes very hard to use. Talk to me IG and I'll try my best to explain (or if you're in the guild, read my GHELP COMBAT files)

Alexina

Seir said:

Pure damage classes don't work in any game. When you have to compare the amount of effort that affliction classes have to go through when it comes to affliction tracking, pressure, and survival compared to damage classes that only have to spam their bashing macro, the disparity is pretty unfortunate.

I kind of want to respond to this statement because it is not entirely true. Achaea's combat system is far more balanced, and it has cases of insane damage outputs which most combatants generally consider are fine (like max int monks kai choking for 48% of max health, or runewarden hugalaz procs for huge burst damage, etcetera, etcetera). There are mainly two reasons for this:

1. People get defensive artifacts. Generally speaking, the damage formulas in Achaea makes the sip ring so very useful plus there's the shield of Absorption that helps out a lot of classes. A smaller credit investment in defensive artifacts is enough to offset a larger investment in offensive artifacts in most cases.

2. Build-up offenses rather than momentum offenses. Puppetry/voduun builds up to high power levels even if you have to shield or use hindering to stop you from dying to high damage output (as opposed to the momentum-based offenses of bruising, carnifex soul drain, affliction stacking, etc). Likewise, they don't have pre-restore, meaning that limb-based offenses can make tiny, tiny progess in between shielding or using curing abilities or hindering, and still be able to reach that all-important dual/triple/quad break. People have to learn when to turtle (touch shield spam at its finest), when to leave the room, when to start flinging hangedman, etcetera, which in the long run makes combat awareness so much more important than credit investment.

When comparing these two games, it becomes painfully obvious that I get more out of my artifacts in Achaea (both defensive and offensive) while people in that game are able to compete even with a much, much smaller artifact list (if they have any at all). I'm not really sure what the solution would be to fix Aetolia but I really do believe that damage should be a viable route, especially if you're going up to a dexterous/wise character that plays a supposedly squishy class.

Rammus

http://www.logsty.com/logs/2uQ1z

heh.

Ezalor

http://pastebin.com/NFFGJN23

Seriously. Look, I know pay2win and all, but I am also fully artied out and I would've died in about 5 seconds to this crap if he hadn't been hitting rebounding + a couple lucky diverts. I'm also one of those supposedly OP tanky classes. This is ridiculous. Arti scaling really needs a look at when someone can do this to someone fully defensive artied.

Daskalos

Logs help a lot more if you had timestamps on them.

Ezalor

I painted once and hit him twice, so this happened in the span of about 9 seconds. I also see I rebounded once onto myself which added damage, basically cancels out him hitting my own rebounding and a divert.

Rammus's log has one attack and the start of a second so it was probably over the span of 4-5 seconds.

I'd wager part of the problem is that attacks all scale to maxhp while artis scale the entire damage of attacks. This means that defensive artis besides sip barely have any effect while offensive ones just go haywire.

Toz

Damage should be a viable kill route if there is some form of setup to it. Damage should never be a viable kill route if you can tape down your bashing macro and leave the room. Unfortunately, artifacts DO enhance classes to the point of pushing certain classes over the edge - an unartifacted player versus a fully artifacted player should have to perhaps work harder, but it should not be a nearly impossible to handle situation. If the only way for an omni-trans/endgame/unartifacted fighter to handle someone's damage output is for them to shield every other round or whore hindering, then there is a fundamental problem with combat balance that needs to be investigated. Adding a small bit of damage on for purchased artifacts is fine, being able to hold down f2 to win is not.