Mafia: The Rellyw Rebellion - Game Thread

Omei

(See here for the rules; if you have not received a PM, you are a rellyw - a vanilla townie. All rules questions should either be PMed or placed in the signup thread.)

The sky is slate grey as winter hems in, and the nights have grown longer - especially since the last experiments from the Conclave of Magic. Ever since martial law was declared by the Ard-Dhasani, the pinch has been keenly felt. The rellyw have worked longer and harder in the fields, with barely scraps left for them to eat. Inside the Citadel, forbidden to all but the Ankyreans, they feast well into the night, staring down upon their slave labor from their high balconies.

Rumors always fly thick, especially when there is little else to do; rumors of why the outer gates have been closed and placed under guard. Rumors of southern Corruption, rumors of yet more experiments up in the Citadel, and rumors of men who have been transformed into giant stirges, sucking the blood dry from their victims. This is especially impressive, given that the Kalsu word for stirge is remarkably difficult to pronounce, and that is the language you all must speak in service to Ankyrean masters.

Last night passed quiet and cold, and when dawn rose, the clouds drifted from the nearby Taren peaks and begin to let fall the first snows of autumn. It was two rellyw farmers, in the middle of one of the fields, who found him, so pale that he could scarcely be distinguished from the snow and every bit as cold. The Ard-Dhasani - dead and flung some distance from the Inner Citadel's balcony. Two questions loomed: what sort of creature has the strength to do such a thing, and why were there bite marks on his neck?

The last straw came when the Syssin were sent out to find the culprit among the rellyw; for they all knew it had been someone inside the Citadel that had committed the murder, not one of their own. After one too many pointed questions from the Defenders, the peasants retaliated as one, using pitchforks, torches and bar-brawling to subdue the Ankyrean guard and storm the Basilica.

It is here, amid crushed vendors' stalls and marketplaces, that camp has been made; members of the Conclaves that are holed up within the Citadel have disguised themselves and gone among their slaves in a last-ditch effort to turn the rebellious sentiment against itself. What none of them reckoned with, however, were the three southerners who had capitalized upon the chaos within to sneak past the gates, tear the hearts from the guards, and infiltrate the peasants as Chakrasulian agents of corruption.

Within the ruined fields and the wrecked Basilica, four factions will play out a political drama in miniature, as each of them seeks to claim power over the unruly mob and gain control. Which will win?

You decide.

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ROUND ONE - DAYTIME

25 surviving players:

@Macavity

@Vharen

@Meskhenet

@Moirean

@Sarita

@Desian

@Haern

@Aldric

@Llok

@Ilyon

@Aryanne

@Aarbrok

@Minarael

@Piper

@Periluna

@Jasline

@Xenia

@Kaeus

@Damonicus

@Aren

@Daskalos

@Teani

@Demarcus

@Esper

@Alexina

FOURTEEN VOTES needed for a lynch!

Kaeus

Shall we try our luck and go straight for @Desian as usual?

Aarbrok

Is is usually @Desian 's fault, if my memory serves me right

Desian

This ain't Feichin's mafia, kids. But immediate training does serve a mild purpose in the mafia games as far as possible targets when a rellyw is killed. Most of you have seen my mafia skillz, and lynching the people with extreme experience first round is a bad idea. Even if I was mafia, I'd still be a very capable person steering the rellyw in the right direction at least for the first few rounds. 

Get a job, ya bums. 

Llok

Vote: Demarcus

Dude's more of a nuisance than me o.O

Moirean

Some thoughts:

- First, it's in both Conclaves' interests to work with the rellyw from the start, since nobody wins until the Indorani are taken out.

- Second, the Conclaves can't start bumping us off until we find a guilty person. Killing off rellyw from the start only helps the Indorani at first. You guys can't actually make any kills until at least one Conclave member gets killed off, so - like it or not - you'll want to work along with the rellyw. Basically what Desian said, but explained in a less guilty way.

- Third, we have the Warden at our disposal to give us some clues as to what each team is doing for a game plan.

With those things in mind, I'm wondering if a no-lynch might actually be worth considering. This game is set up to give us a lot more going on behind the scenes - and a way to peek at this and make more educated guesses, versus having to rely just on a vote record.

Thoughts?

Ilyon

The indorani still get to kill someone, even if the conclaves don't, making nolynch sound like a bad idea.

Teani

Ngh. So many roles to keep track of. This is complicated! Let me see if I got this straight.

The Rebels having a role that can effectively block the Syssin's powers if they reveal themselves, so we can't have any safe roleclaiming to start building from.

At the end of this round, the Warden will know what everyone in a power role did, unless they stayed still to remain in the dark. This means that even though they will know some potential roles (potential because of framer) they have no one to share it with.

I think if we don't cause something of a stir, like a potential lynch, people will be more inclined to hold back. I'm not sure if a 'no lynch' is a good option for us here.

Edit: Feel like I might be in way over my head, but better speak up to get explanations than not, right?

Moirean

The Indorani can kill someone, yes, but that's 3/25 people. There is no way we're going to hit an Indorani on a lynch. I'm not saying we're not going to lose people, but we do GAIN stuff from a night round - the traditional argument against no-lynch is that night rounds don't reveal much, day is when the core of the citizen's action is, and you're left with basically the same info you had at the last round, so you don't gain much from holding back.

In this game, I think it's a different story. 

I'm happy to vote if someone has a good argument to the contrary.

Regarding roleclaiming, I think we can do it safely?

- Have the vigilante roleclaim for initial coordination.

- Jailer protects them.

- If the Conclaves really want to waste their time removing that protection on the vigilante, to let the Indorani kill the person (which seems convoluted and not like something that the conclaves would want to do), we always have the conscript as fallback, and we've already formed an initial network. 

- Does that logic make sense? Point out a flaw if there's a gaping one.

Also, clarification to Teani - I don't think names are associated with what the warden sees, just roles and what they did.

Teani

Ah, I see. And yeah, didn't think about the Vigilante revealing. That would be a good thing. The question would be who to target for the proof kill. Anyone have a valid suggestion?

Macavity

@moirean I do not believe allowing the Vigilante to reveal themselves would be a good idea....If I am understanding all the roles correctly, if the Jailer was to protect the Vigilante then they could not use their night time abilities to kill people at night if they wanted to.  Maybe @omei can confirm or deny if I am correct on this?

also I am not sure a no lynch is a good idea either...  from the Rellyw point of view we have 16 people vs the 9 (3 from each group) to kill off to win the game, and that gives us a 56.25% chance of hitting someone of the 9.

Ilyon

Hrrm. I'm not so sure on the vigilante reveal. It would work initially, but if the rebel conclave loses a member, the loyalist conclave could easily remove the vigilante.

The big question, then. To lynch or to nolynch? The worst thing that we can do at this point is to lynch a conclave member, as this gives two factions a night kill instead of one, which does speak in favor of a nolynch, but on the other hand it also means that there isn't much information gained in the day round and we'll need to rely solely on the warden and the syssin.

Tricky tricky.

Ilyon

@Macavity - the chance is 36%, not 56.25% (9/25, not 9/16), and as I note above, hitting a conclave member could backfire while the indorani are in play.

Moirean

You have a good point that we can also hit Conclave members, but the minute we take out a Conclave person, the other Conclave then gains a night kill as well. 

Also, yes, it would not be intended that the Vigilante actually exercise their night kills right away - they'd just be pointless and random shots this early on, anyways.

Macavity

umm if I am reading this right...  the Conclaves either of them do not get their kills till the Indorani are all gone, so only one kill per night will happen at least from Votes, other abilities are another subject

Moirean

Oops posted too soon.

Note that we shouldn't send our roles to whoever makes a claim yet, until we have thought this through fully.

Esper

@Macavity: I think the die-roll breaks down this way: 9:25 is a 36% chance to kill a non-rellyw; a 24% chance to kill a Conclave member and give them a faction kill, as Ilyon pointed out.

If I'm understanding Moirean correctly, and the Warden's passive power, we do gain a lot of information at night: who Science investigates, whose active power Magic tries to block, who Devotion frames, and if the Wildcard inscribes one of their cards.

Disclaimer: I may misunderstand the Warden's power.

Additionally: the Consanguine by default masks Magic's choice from the Warden, but it may have already switched that, and may do so again at the night round.

I think the Vigilante role-claiming is a mistake this early in the game. That person only has a night kill, instead of a last-minute save shot.

Because of the Warden, we have a lot of information about the rebel faction, but not necessarily any of the others. The only way we can gain information about the other two, from what I can tell, is voting patterns. Nolynch thus seems to me as risky as in any game, despite the passive information gathering.

Moirean

@esper: Fairly certain that the Warden sees pretty much everything. I asked for clarification and was told:

"The Warden, at the end of the round, gets a report on which active powers were used during the [day or] night, and upon whom."

That looks like it would cover nearly all the factions' actions? The only ones listed as passive are whoever the experiment (rebel) picks and the dhasan of devotion (loyalist).

----

@macavity: -Gain a factional kill when they become the Conclaves with the most surviving members.

The Conclaves get a kill as soon as one Conclave loses a member (eg rebels lose someone, loyalists get a night kill).

I'm unsure what happens if their numbers switch around, eg if rebels drop to 2 and then loyalist drop to 1, will both conclaves have night kills? Sure hope not.

-------

Re: the vigilante roleclaiming, I keep thinking through scenarios and I agree that it's probably not the best idea - magic can block powers from working, while art can swap who is being targeted, so we can't guarantee protection.

That being said, we do need a way to coordinate not only our actions, but to safely share what the warden/syssin learn with everyone. My thoughts behind suggesting the vigilante is that he's the most expendable of our power roles, he can prove he's who he says he is if needed, and he can be replaced (which actually discourages bumping him off). Still, there are risks and people aren't always logical and might just go for a kill because it's a revealed name.

I got clarification and we are allowed to send Omei PMs to post anonymous posts, so we can probably go the first few rounds through anonymous reports from the Syssin/Warden - it's in the Conclave's interests (and mildly the Indorani's as well) to see this info, so our only concerns with this method are: 1. Fake reports and how to handle them and 2. Do we want the Conclaves and Indorani seeing these? Obviously we'd want sensitive info edited out first, but would that be giving them too much of a leg up?

Macavity

ah i see my mistake, it was in the rules but this was a change....note to self read ALL rules and their CHANGES before posting!  lol

Esper

@Moirean: yeah, I went back to reread everything, and you're right. Loyalist conclave has 3 active powers, rebel has two, and Indorani has 2 (but the Wildcard can't do anything until someone with a role dies.

@Macavity: don't feel bad, it's very convoluted, I'm with you.

There's also a list of the order in which things resolve in the other thread:

Omei said:

(Switcher) Dhasan of Art -> (Roleblocker) Jailer/Dhasan of Nature/Dhasan of Magic -> (Framer) Consanguine Experiment/Dhasan of Devotion -> (Investigative/Informative) Dhasan of Science/Syssin/Warden -> (Other) Summoner/Vigilante/Conscript/Necromancer/Wildcard.

The conscript will take over whichever rellyw role dies first, which means a layer of protection for each of the roles.

There might be a convoluted way for the Warden to roleclaim because it is a passive power and will work through being jailed, but I know for sure I wouldn't be able to figure it out on my own, or that it is in any way wise.

Teani

See? Too many roles to keep track on. Makes me thoroughly confused. So, no roleclaiming just yet, at least not with so little information. But I still think a nolynch is a mistake. At least it would yield information, which is essentially what is needed, no?

Yes, one of the conclaves might get an extra night kill, but through voting we're able to see who pushes for who to gain their fraction a better position.

Jasline

@moirean, I see your point on the no-lynch. I agree that it's too early in the game for any roleclaiming to be going on. On the subject of anon posts we essentially have the same problem of deciding which is legit and which isn't. I've been thinking and I haven't been able to come up with a feasible way to be able to distinguish the real messages from the fakes without it being a trial and error sort of thing. So I don't see how anyone would be getting a leg up if no one can tell which message to listen to. Unless there's something I'm not seeing.

Meskhenet

I agree about a no lynch being a bad idea.  And roleclaiming in general is a bad idea. No matter what the case, you will be hunted down.

This is something we will all have to be rather careful about, don't you agree?

Teani

From the discussion it seems like most agree a no lynch is a bad thing, so I'm going to go ahead and pick a quiet target and see if they speak up or not.

Vote Sarita

Ilyon

Mm, I am not so sure if most agree on nolynch being a bad idea. I'm kind of on the fence myself, as while we gain little information from a nolynch, it is also true that the groups who can gain the most are the conclaves, not the rellyw.

Sarita

I was actually in the middle of trying to figure out if there would be a somewhat safe way of beginning to set up a rellyw network with minimal risks to us. What I'd been thinking is that it could center around the jailer. Until the Indorani/Conclaves start to get a better idea of who might be who, any night shots they take are pretty much random (probably 21/24 tonight, assuming we lynch someone who isn't Indorani, and considering the fact that they could as easily get a Conclave member.) The general idea I had is that the jailer would request an anonymous PM with his name, and the vigilante would target him while he protects himself. Without any roleclaims so far, it would make sense for the jailer to protect himself in this night round anyway. It would leave the vigilante with only two shots later on, but if things start getting coordinated, maybe this is a shot worth considering?

The reason I hadn't really posted about this that I was still trying to figure out how it would all work out with the conscript. I was running through a few different scenarios about how things would work out with other rellyw being confirmed and brought in, what happens if things fall apart too soon, and those kinds of things to even decide if it's something that could be too risky to want to try. The problem is that if we do go through with something like this, it seems like it would be better to do it sooner rather than later in the game while random shots are still less likely to hit the major roles that would play into this, but I also didn't want to suggest something that still had major holes that could be exploited to ruin it all either.

Ilyon

The jailer cannot protect himself.

Llok

That idea, while nice, would be easy to exploit.

Sarita

That's why I'd been holding off on posting in the first place. There were a lot of little rules and things to check to see if it could be a safe or viable option. Then Teani voted for me for being quiet, so I thought I'd share my reasons for that. I just wanted to be a little bit more sure before posting.

Teani

Rule question, can the Jailer's action of putting someone in jail be reflected onto someone else by the Dhasan of Art?

Plus, with the Jailer not able to protect him/herself, roleclaiming is not a good idea.

Thanks for speaking up though, Sarita. Brought some good things out into the open even though it wasn't all completely thought through.

Unvote Sarita

Alexina

Okay. I have a question. How do you figure out who's mafia on the first round? Because it seems to me like the first round always end up pretty chaotic, then there's a night round and someone dies, then day two starts and no one is any wiser.