Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE

Atrapoema

I can't remember the full details any longer, but someone with access to the Leaders board may want to peruse it and pull the rules from it that were placed in guilds' laps several years back. We have very stringent rules (or did have) for what you can and cannot expect of someone advancing to GR3. Explorer requirements and essays were a part of the "absolutely not" category, if memory serves.

If these rules are still in effect, I believe it's time we laid them out in a help file for everyone to have access to. Something like HELP GM or HELP GUILDRULES or something. There have been too many instances of multiple guilds either being completely ignorant of these rules or outright ignoring them for whatever reason.

Macavity

Since it was asked to have it posted, this is what I found recently from LEADERS 376

[spoiler]

Pre-Class Requirements

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LEADERS NEWS #376
Date: 2/2/2010 at 22:53
From: Slyphe, the Maelstrom
To : Everyone
Subj: Pre-Class Requirements

It has been brought to our attention that certain guilds seem to be 
slipping back into a trend in regards to Pre-Class requirements. 

So to touch on three points I think need to be restated perhaps for 
clarity. 

1) You cannot force a city of choice with no other option. It needs to 
be City or No City. I've personally come across novice requirements in 
two sperate guilds that state they need to join X city and that's final 
over the last week. Now, there is an understanding on wanting Novices to
avoid certain cities, such as Luminaries saying "You can't join 
Bloodloch!" That is sort of self explanatory, it is more the "Join X or 
Y the moment you come off the Isle" that I am speaking of. 

2) Forced Mentorship is another matter. You should not be punishing any 
novice or 'transfer' from another guild for not dropping a Mentor you do
not agree with. As well, you should not be forcing anyone to take on a 
mentor, or guild sponsor regardless of if they are a Novice or come from
another guild. 

3) Lastly, something of a hot issue. Imposing extensive time restraints 
on someone to move towards class with no other tasks to be done in the 
mean time is not something any of you should be doing. For example, if 
you place a requirement that novices or guild transfers must wait X 
amount of game months before they can advance their skills or get to the
next rank is a big no-no. It is understandable that you may want to 
stagger tests/tiers/interviews so that a person can only pass one a RL 
day, but time frames that are essentially waiting periods of excess game
months to even get to another interview is against our policy. 

I think the above pretty much covers everything that we felt needed to 
be addressed. Just use common sense when you make requirements and 
adhere to the rules set in place and you should all be fine. I'm not 
pointing the finger at any one guild in particular *Luminaries I was 
just pulling a random guild to comment city choice*, those that I have 
seen or had brought to me I have talked to their leaders to correct the 
problems. Also, if any of you need clarification on ANY Administrative 
policy regarding Pre-Class requirements you can post your questions 
here, or message me directly and I'll be happy to explain. 

Penned by my hand on the 18th of Midsummer, in the year 295 MA.

Atrapoema

There's definitely more from before that, if it can be found.

Moirean

I don't know how feasible this would be, but I think it would be pretty helpful if the admin were able to find time to sit with the leadership of each guild (and maybe city?) in a semi-regular (ie every few RL months) OOC meeting, giving the GM (and any secretaries who attended) some basic feedback and either approval for current structure/scrolls/guild activities or suggestions for improvement. This would also give the guilds a chance to air any concerns or issues and suggest small things they want. 

I know that this sounds like a big headache, but I think the biggest hook you will find in this game is engagement with other players, and the guild/house system is the core method for this sort of engagement for new players - it's really in everyone's interest to have good guild systems, so IMHO it's worth investing time to ensure the guild leadership is gently nudged if they are being crazy, tossed a line if they are flailing or given some nice support and encouragement to continue if they are doing a good job.

Atrapoema

Really, that's what the forums and community, at large, should be doing, provided we have guidelines set in stone. We should be policing these things, so the administration doesn't have to take the time to do so, unless it is absolutely necessary for the guild's continued survival. There are several problems with this, though, such as the fact that not every GM (or secretary) visits the forums. You also have instances of the community alerting a GM, either IG or via the forums/OOC tells, of the problems with their setups, and said GMs refuting the evidence and then taking their ball and going home, because they are not open to criticism and their method is, of course, infallible.

If we have these guidelines set in a help file, available for all players to read and take advantage of, and able to be easily edited in case of changes, it would give more ground for the community to help those guilds that require it, and give no room for GMs/secretaries to stick their fingers in their ears and scream that they can't hear any of us.

Minarael

There's nothing wrong with the admin poking in every few months, glancing over structure (which takes minutes) and discussing it with leadership. That's certainly not too taxing to suggest. 

Given the really sad state of some of these guilds (Indorani. WTF, seriously), it's quite probable that we are losing players because there is no real pressure to stick to standards laid out by the admin. 

You laid out the reasons why relying on the playerbase isn't enough. 

Atrapoema

It would be, provided these guidelines were somewhere accessible, which is my entire point. Make them visible, there's no excuse, players will have the control required of them to do the policing that needs to be done, be it IC or OOC.

Edit: Administration intervention should be a last resort, saved for when a guild either refuses to fall in line or needs to be saved from themselves.

Minarael

Consultation was her suggestion, not intervention. Consultation applies a subtle pressure that should prevent the need for intervention, and ensures there is no excuse for -not- comprehending the basic expectations of org leadership.

Macavity

@Atrapoema here is something from 2007....

[spoiler]

Guild Requirements (mainly about novices)

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LEADERS NEWS #233
Date: 6/1/2007 at 17:08
From: Varian the Celestine
To : Everyone
Subj: Guild Requirements (mainly about novices)

I know this drives some of you crazy, but I have to bring it up again 
after spending the morning looking into complaints and guild 
requirements. Most people who play our games are casual players, who 
play an hour or two a day. Even that is a lot for most players. They 
want to have fun playing the game, and some guilds are making the whole 
experience frustrating. For every player that emails me, 100 are 
quitting and not saying anything. 

Here are some of the requirements that are just too much for a new 
player. I am not saying these cannot be done as they advance in the 
guild, not save it for much later in the guild, or make them all 
optional for extra rewards. Players have to get out of novicehood as 
fast as possible. 

- Know how to walk to multiple places all around the world. You may 
want them to be able to find the guildhall, but that is about it. It
can take months and months to learn how to get around a text game.

- Requirements for personal histories or any kind of 'essay'. This is
absolutely not allowed to require of novices, and only semi allowed
for any kind of requirements. If they are new, they do not even have
an idea of the history of the game. 

- Multiple or long interviews. Getting an interview for a player, that
is on for a couple hours every other day is nearly impossible. 
Especially when the interviewers do not want to do it 'right now'. 
One interview, and your interviewers need to be accessible, and it
really needs to just be a check in that they are doing ok and have
done a few simple requirements.

- Minimum time requirements. Imagine I am a newbie, I just want to
advance. What if I am done with the requirements, but I have to wait
3 or 4 more days just to ask for an interview, that I will probably
have to wait a couple more days to do. Remove them for novices.

- Tons of reading requirements. At least for novices, this is lame.
Players want to play the game, they want skills, and they want to go
kill mobs. Players do not want to play a game when they have to read
page after page of books in a guild library. A few help files are
fine, beyond that is not. Save the reading for higher up requirements.

- 'Mentor' requirements. Not a real mentor, but an in-guild person they
are trained by. This is really border-line, especially if your guild
has a bunch of people that just do not talk to novices. New players
are going to be extra shy too. This can be a suggestion, but not a
requirement.

- Not allowing players to use a skillset. This is huge. Why play a game
and not be able to milk venoms, make enchantments, harvest, forge, 
get crystals, make a grove, etc. If this does not change, I will have
to make optional ways for people to use these skills.

- Putting a player on probation after they finish novicehood. Why? You
want to limit them from reading a news board that all your enemies
probably have access to anyways? Do not put players on probation after
novicehood, which is like saying 'Good job! Now, let me put you in
jail.'

Here is a sample of some non guild specific requirements I would use.

To promote from novicehood: 
THEY DO:
- Get level 10
- Deposit 500 gold to the guild. (HELP BANKS)
- Be able to find the guildhall
- Write a description for yourself (HELP DESCRIPTION)
- Be a citizen of WhateverCity
- Have some clothes
- Read HELP GUILDNAME, HELP ROLEPLAY
- Interview (which is really just a quick check they did those
things)

THEY GET:
- Full guild membership
- Simple guild title (Squire, Page, Altar boy, etc)

Now, lets create some more ways for them to promote in the guild, while 
slowing adding on some of the other RP stuff that you want. 

COOL RANK ONE
THEY DO:
- Get level 21
- Have healing stuff A, B, and C.
- Fight in a FFA or duel in the arena (win or lose)
- Have armour and whatever weapons the class uses.
- Know how to find the rat mob in the city.
- Get tattoos A, B, and C.
- Recommend learning these skills.
- Donate 1000 gold to the guild.
- Interview with a guild rep. (short, simple, sweet)

THEY GET:
- Better a standard guild title (Soldier, Priest, Wizard, etc)
- A guild favour

COOL RANK TWO
THEY DO:
- Get level 30
- Have all healing items.
- Read a 'single' book about the guild.
- Be able to walk to allied city or area.
- Complete simple quest A, B, and C
- Donate 2500 gold to the guild.
- Interview with a guild rep. (short, simple, sweet)

THEY GET:
- A better guild title (Knight, Mage, ect)
- Gets a special insider price on some of the items the guild can
make or get from other guilds.

COOL RANK THREE
THEY DO:
- Get level 50
- Write a history.
- Kill special bad mob dude
- Complete really cool quest A.
- Be able to walk to enemy city or area.
- Read a couple more guild books.
- Donate 10000 gold to the guild.
- Interview with a guild rep. (short, simple, sweet)

THEY GET:
- An even better guild title (Blademaster, Ether Wizard, 
Necromancer, etc)
- Can join a special insider clan.
- A guild favour.

A couple things to note. All the reading and writing are spread out over
several levels, so it is not something I have to do right now. I can 
bash or fight for a while, then come back and do some of these other 
things. 

Other activities you can use to have players do other activities which 
help promote RP and such. 

- Have requirements for how to become a novice aide.
- Have requirements for how to become a secretary.
- Have requirements for how to form or join a special group or
subguild within the guild. (fighters, ambassadors, trainers,
bashers, packs, historians, explorers, questors, etc)
- Special rewards for reading or writing guild history or other
books.
- Special rewards for doing other things that promote RP within the
guild, like killing mobs that your guild do not like, or killing
certain players (within PK rules). 
- Requirements to have any prefix/suffix you want.

In short folks, make it fun.

It is a game, not a job.

Penned by my hand on the 24th of Lanosian, in the year 217 MA.

Macavity

Ok so the above does not want to work for me....sorry for the long post

Areka

While not explicitly in those posts (while reference should probably be made), Teradrim's combat requirements and knowing everything about every entity in the game is problematic.

Macavity

@areka not sure what you are referring to, but we have no combat requirements.  We do not require people to go out and kill someone in order to advance.  The current set up within the guild is on a knowledge base set up which any novice can learn by reading a few cure help files, AB files, and asking the guild in general for assistance on the information.  The entity part of your post, does not state know every single entity out there, but simply to compare the Golem to the entities of the land.  As it stands now the Golem is a very different entity than any other out there currently, and that question is for them to learn about other classes that use entities and get a a general idea that the Teradrim are not the only ones that have one or many.

If there is a confusion on this please let me know, and I can see about rewriting those to sound less difficult 

Atrapoema

Thanks, @Macavity. It looks like it only applies to novices, but I swear that, at some point, these same rules were extended up all the way to GR3. It could very well be that I'm misremembering or it was never written down, though!

@Minarael: I guess I'm just completely against heaping more onto our volunteers' plates, when we know what they're already dealing with IG, not to mention RL. This is something that we, as players, are fully in control of, provided the guidelines are laid down and visible. Consultation just seems like an unnecessary waste of time, especially if they're going to visit every GM, even just to give them a pat on the back.

Macavity

there was a lot of talk about requirements from players and such, but I only looked for posts from Gods or Admins.  And the most recent post from Verites references these two posts I added here, this was 01/2013

Rivas

I rage at IC stutterers. It's a personal quirk of mine, but hot damn I just can't stand them.

Severn

Moirean said:

I don't know how feasible this would be, but I think it would be pretty helpful if the admin were able to find time to sit with the leadership of each guild (and maybe city?) in a semi-regular (ie every few RL months) OOC meeting, giving the GM (and any secretaries who attended) some basic feedback and either approval for current structure/scrolls/guild activities or suggestions for improvement. This would also give the guilds a chance to air any concerns or issues and suggest small things they want. 

I know that this sounds like a big headache, but I think the biggest hook you will find in this game is engagement with other players, and the guild/house system is the core method for this sort of engagement for new players - it's really in everyone's interest to have good guild systems, so IMHO it's worth investing time to ensure the guild leadership is gently nudged if they are being crazy, tossed a line if they are flailing or given some nice support and encouragement to continue if they are doing a good job.

I did this with Syssin very recently, pulled the leadership(and anyone who was online at the time) aside to get their opinions on how the guild was going and any concerns they had. It was actually a pretty decent meeting and I got a lot of feedback. I don't typically have a problem sitting down with people on an OOC level to find out what problems they are having/what they may need. I know some of the other Gods are the same way.

Then again, it's really hit and miss on some things because often times you run into players who are set in their ways and any intervention by us is seen as overly meddlesome even if we really should have skipped friendly interaction and went straight to using the thunder pan on them.

Macavity

I would KILL to have a God sit down with me and the Teradrim!  I do not remember the last time I honestly saw Ivoln around

Setne

Macavity said:

I would KILL to have a God sit down with me and the Teradrim!  I do not remember the last time I honestly saw Ivoln around

Look down?

Meskhenet

Don't look 'em in the eye!

Moirean

Meh, the eld swarms. I don't mind there being super mobs and I find them fun challenges, but impale and balance knock are frustrating, since there's not much you can do except spam an exit to run and hope your ping wins.

Ezrax

Meskhenet said:

Don't look 'em in the eye!

You're here until you die.

Alexina

Moirean said:

Meh, the eld swarms. I don't mind there being super mobs and I find them fun challenges, but impale and balance knock are frustrating, since there's not much you can do except spam an exit to run and hope your ping wins.

Bring someone along to get you out of the room (lust/mind wrench). Or switch into vampire and put up blood affinity.

Macavity

Alexina said:

Moirean said:

Meh, the eld swarms. I don't mind there being super mobs and I find them fun challenges, but impale and balance knock are frustrating, since there's not much you can do except spam an exit to run and hope your ping wins.

Bring someone along to get you out of the room (lust/mind wrench). Or switch into vampire and put up blood affinity.

blood affinity still would not stop the impale and balance knock.. Moirean should be Teradrim and use the Golem Prop, to pick you up when you fall

Toz

Mob impale doesn't require prone.

Xavin

Toz said:

Mob impale doesn't require prone.

That. In fact, it's pretty much just a variant of the typical mob web.

Moirean

Alexina said:

Moirean said:

Meh, the eld swarms. I don't mind there being super mobs and I find them fun challenges, but impale and balance knock are frustrating, since there's not much you can do except spam an exit to run and hope your ping wins.

Bring someone along to get you out of the room (lust/mind wrench). Or switch into vampire and put up blood affinity.

O.o

Aarbrok

I wonder what a living person would do then, seems that theres plenty of ways out for the undead.

(Instigation activated)

Sarita

Pretty sure mind wrench is for sentaari and zealots.

Aarbrok

I was just being an ass.  Im terrified of the super eld.

Vharen

NRRGRGRGRRNRNNNNRRRNRN. Unicorn chupacabra pegasus puma. That is all.