Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE

Rashar

Agreed. But, it's pretty typically Ishin. :P

Toz

It'd be more accurate to say, gods shouldn't start trouble/get involved if they don't want their order to get war declared. That's the only action that can be taken, and the last time all this drama about gods got stirred up, that's what we were told to do - 'Well if you don't like it, talk to your patron about an order war or something'.

Ishin

Emelle said:

@Ishin: That isn't fair at all.

How is it not fair?

If you don't have the umph to back up what you say, either don't say it, or prepared to be smacked in the face via whatever mechanics or RP people have available to them.

Oleis

Okay. I'm just now getting caught up, so let's hit pause on the player-to-player slapfight and get down to facts and policies.

I am unsure what exactly Damariel did. I am positive that he shouted a lot of grumpy things at the darkside raiders. I am also positive about one strict rule I have with God roleplay: you can do whatever you want in your temple. Some of you have channeled some righteous anger into the idea that Gods are interfering with your gameplay by taking action against you in their temples, while completely ignoring the fact that gameplay (that is to say, a corporation telling its participants not to be dicks) is the only thing keeping the in-character god from obliterating your character and all of his/her family.

We keep Gods on a very short leash, which typically means that they're relatively toothless in the context of punishments and counterplay. Acting indignant that a God would take direct action against using His temple as a raid point is completely asinine.

Emelle

Ishin said:

Emelle said:

@Ishin: That isn't fair at all.

How is it not fair?

If you don't have the umph to back up what you say, either don't say it, or prepared to be smacked in the face via whatever mechanics or RP people have available to them.

First of all, we know a God's power isn't exclusively tied to the power of their order members. That aside, it's logically unsound to qualify the power of an order exclusively by the quantity and quality of its PKers. There's much, much more depth to orders than that. Granted, a lot of people aren't willing to look past PK mechanics, which is really too bad, in my opinion.

But hey, I'm just a lowly noncom, so what do I know?

Toz

Emelle said:

First of all, we know a God's power isn't exclusively tied to the power of their order members. There's much, much more depth to orders than that. Granted, a lot of people aren't willing to look past PK mechanics, which is really too bad, in my opinion.

There's no way to hurt a God. Order's the next closest thing. Even ICly, it's pretty obvious nothing you do to a God is going to have lasting consequences. But man people hate Order Wars, so popping one off is a pretty good way of making SOMEONE hurt for your troubles. Wars aren't fought because one army hates another - leaders don't get along, it's the troops who fight each other.

Jensen

I agree with you Emelle, but if you slap down someone who leads an order full of diehard fighters then expect a war.

Rashar

Because removing the ability to raid from your temple is totally slapping someone down.

Rashar

To sort of elaborate on what @oleis was saying, because I've always felt this way. I'm guilty of violating it myself after a few (or more than a few) shots on a bad night or two, but for the most part I have been and try to stay true to this.

The only reason Gods don't fucking decimate you and turn you into a memory is because this is a game and they want to keep players. If people would just keep that in mind, I think the perspective would make so much more sense.

They are -Gods-. They can fucking -sneeze- you to death. Everyone has this dismissive attitude towards them that really irks me, because it makes no sense. Call it what you want, you know? People justify it as 'Oh, Dhar/Varian/Whoever brings us back from the dead and so it's RP that I can't die, so why should I care?' What if a God just muted you and rearranged your face so you didn't have a mouth, and you had to go RP with another God and try to get it cured every time you talked shit or ran your mouth? What if they crippled you and made you unable to walk or blinded you, or any number of other things that is well within their 'power', but not within what they're 'allowed' to do administratively?

Dunno. It's a pet peeve of mine, this desire people have at a way to 'fight back against Gods'. You don't. They're fucking Gods.

Jensen

They totes can, if death mattered people might be afraid of that. Jensen suicides and dismembers himself as part of his rp, why would he care about another death no mater who it came from.

Ishin

@Rashar - There was an Auresae a while back, I think it was, who really crippled Xiuhcoatl's ability to move. They put on some non-remove prayer beads that were made out of like something 10x denser than lead and he moved around like he was carrying furniture or something. Soooo slow like a snail.

I really approved of that method of punishing people. I think the attitude you describe is derivative from the 'worst' punishment that can be given is either 'death or disfavor' that seems to be super popular.

I'm not real big on @Omei's rampant ripping off of heads, but it...kinda gets the point across after She's done it 5 or 6 times to the same person that maybe they might want to stfu, but...once where your character is RP f'd up, instead of just hexed or killed...

Probably get it across much better.

Rashar

Right. Cool. I'll give you that valid RP.

I bet the tune would change if they just muted you and fused your lips together every time you said something bad at them. How tired would you get of going and finding some way to cure that so you could talk again?

Toz

Dunno. It's a pet peeve of mine, this desire people have at a way to 'fight back against Gods'. You don't. They're unicorns Gods.

That is bad game design. Because, as you said earlier, this is a game.

An antagonistic figure needs to either A) be far removed from actions that directly influence players, or have some weakness that can be played against. Either one, really - but you cannot have both and expect players to not be frustrated any time anything is done. It sucks to have x happen and have no recourse other than sit there and take it, and there is nothing compelling about it.

Overcoming obstacles is a part of game design. 'Here's a big bad that kills you whenever and you can't stop it' is not.

Aarbrok

I remember in Achaea I flame sigiled a bunch of booze and panties in Lorielans temple, and made signs from Shallam directing people to her divine brothel. I was forced to wear a veil for two months that made me vomit up worms and infected me with voyria anytime I tried to emote or speak.

I loved that punishment.

Jensen

That is creative

Ishin

Rashar said:

Right. Cool. I'll give you that valid RP.

I bet the tune would change if they just muted you and fused your lips together every time you said something bad at them. How tired would you get of going and finding some way to cure that so you could talk again?

I agree, but I also think there's a line. There should be a way to fight back, in a way, But I think that if a conversation with a God IC was c/p'd to forums and it came out looking like 'You unicorns mother unicorns unicorns you I unicorns hate your mother unicorns guts you unicorns.' then you should probably get your hips melted to your knees so your entrance/exit message displays just how grotesque you are etc. etc.

Rashar

@toz I don't know, man.

I can honestly say that, with one recent and very specific exception, I rarely have had a God interfere ICly with something I've been doing that made me feel like I had no recourse or no way to do anything about it, or have it affect my gameplay to the point that I grew frustrated. And Rashar has, in the recent past at least, been pretty belligerent and bitter towards them.

I feel like people antagonize them for shits and giggles, and then when they retaliate with some IC thing, you want a way to fight -back-, and that's what leads to stuff like this. Let me help you out: Don't start shit with a God, because they will win.

The tainted fountain that Slyphe did in Spinesreach was in retaliation for people running their mouths, ICly. He responded with a fun RP punishment for disrespecting him and it was bitched about for days that he was 'bullying'. But ultimately, it was someone blatantly talking shit about a God that started it.

The other time that a war was declared was because of RP that Moirean did with Slyphe personally. It's hardly as if he was just running around bee bopping his way through interfering with mortal lives.

Here you have raids being conducted from a -temple-, and because he (right or wrong, true/false, justified/not) put a stop to that particular aspect of it, people are once again grumbling at Gods involving themselves with mechanical things and us having no recourse.

Come on, man. That's a stretch.

I think if you look back at most of the cases where people feel like Gods are straight up bullying without any ability to fight back, there's a good chance that they did something to start it. Again. Don't kick a sleeping dragon, bro. And I'm far from innocent - I've done my fair share of instigating, but I've never once complained about an IC consequence that a God leveled on me for something I did/said ICly.

Oleis

I get that you're fighting back against a god within your mechanical capabilities. Okay, sure. But you're fighting back against a god for defending his one sacred place. The one place in which he is allowed (however OOC that allowance is) to do whatever he wants to you.

You're very good at using your character's personality traits to justify your (the player's) conscious decisions, but you're wholeheartedly unwilling to look at the reverse, and acknowledge that you're playing against an opponent whose out-of-character responsibilities completely control his in-character actions. Starting a Holy War against a god who removed you from his temple is a bit like stealing a kid's candy and then beating him up every afternoon for daring to complain.

Jensen

No one ever tells you that that kid joined a gang, a rival gang, and needs to be told that crips bes be steppin' off bloods turf.

Toz

Oleis said:

Starting a Holy War against a god who removed you from his temple is a bit like stealing a kid's candy and then beating him up every afternoon for daring to complain.

Well. We are the bad guys.

I'm not talking about the Damariel thing, because I wasn't around and don't really care. In fact, I'm not even really interested in arguing if Gods ever go 'too far'. I'm saying if you want to end the 'they went too far!' arguments on the forums/IG and reduce bitterness overall, there are two ways to go. Have Gods NOT do anything big/punishing ever, except events, OR provide counter-play. Because at the end of the day, they're still being perceived as players working for their side - because, in their official capacity, that's what they are. If I got to obliterate someone every time they shouted something at me, and the person who died had no way to fight back, that'd be a Bad Thing(tm). To a lesser extent, it is a Bad Thing(tm) for Gods to be able to do it with no counter play.

Yarel

Emelle said:

@Ishin: That isn't fair at all.

Why is it not fair to say that Gods should not write checks that their orders can't cash?

oops.. You answered my question before I could finish asking it. Guess I should have caught up before posting.

Oleis

That's more my point. I wish players (not just you specifically) would stop using "I am a bad guy" IC as an excuse for "I am acting in a way I know is unnecessary" out of character. If you're going to grief, grief. And raiding from a temple, which gives you city access without any of the city protections, is undoubtedly griefy. But don't start both an in-character crusade (with a mechanic we've all established is awful to begin with) and a vehement forums explosion when you get resistance to that. Especially when that 'resistance' amounts to nothing more than rhetoric.

Toz

Oleis said:

That's more my point. I wish players (not just you specifically) would stop using "I am a bad guy" IC as an excuse for "I am acting in a way I know is unnecessary" out of character. If you're going to grief, grief. But don't start both an in-character crusade (with a mechanic we've all established is awful to begin with) and a vehement forums explosion when you get resistance to that. Especially when it amounts to nothing more than rhetoric.

Well, that's why I'm here whining again. Order Wars DO suck- but they're also what we got told to do the last time we complained about a God doing something. It's the only real 'way' to hit back, and as much as it does suck, I see nothing wrong with hitting that button again and again - bounties aren't very compelling RP opportunities, they're an open target on your back for ganking, with the intention of discouraging you from acting in a similar manner again. IN THIS CASE is an Order War 'justified'? Dunno. IN GENERAL, is an Order War gonna happen whenever a God does something against a city/group? Yeah, probably, because it's the only way to strike back.

Jensen

You can ICLY hurt a God without an Order War. It's really goddamn hard, requires a lot of recon, and a bit of luck that they care about something tangible that could be stolen, taken, or destroyed.

Oleis

Okay, just for the sake of clarifying, what is it that you guys think Damariel actually did?

Ishin

I heard he made his temple non-portable. Then @Areka nudged me on Skype and said it wasn't so, even though I didn't debate it or bring it up. I mean I think it's kinda silly to do it mid-raid, but...it's his temple, he can do what he wants with it, yanno? I think that moving it would have been better, if he was going to do anything at all.

Jensen

Neron mentioned doing a sermon for Chak on Dams boat during a raid. His priest yelled at us and soon after sending portals was disabled, and for a stint wormholes were disabled. Dam shouted that we could do what we want but if we did a sermon he'd kill us all. About 10 minutes later wormholes were allowed again and I left.

edit: He manually ran through the rooms too, we stopped him with blocking. Kinda funny actually. I know something stopped us because I got the wormhole begins line looped like 6 times without anything happening on the other end

Trager

Non-portable? Could it by chance be an auction house arty that applies monolith defense to the entire area, perhaps?

Lim

Can we play this game like a roleplaying game?

I've actually said this before, and it comes up again because the same issues apply.

In the real world, any conflict boils down to muscle. Can you kick another sovereign's ass if it came to war? If yes, you have the upperhand and will dictate the terms. In this case, Bloodloch/Spinesreach/Iosyne's Order have the upperhand, because they will and can kick butt.

So what should the underdogs do? Well, for one, if you don't have the muscle, then don't be obnoxious. Blanket enemying is a stupid policy, but moreso stupid because it provokes your opponents without you having the necessary muscle to back it up. Very poor political choices have been made in game, which, to be frank, if done in real life, would be punished even more heavily.

In real life, Enorian would be burnt to the ground by now because its leaders have no sense of self-preservation and are on a suicide course of zealotry, or they would be voted out by citizens who realise that their leaders will bring them destruction. The only reason Enorian, with all its past decisions made, still stands, is because of an admin safety net that prevents it from being decimated.

What we're seeing here is how time and time again, that safety net will be called upon to bail players out of their bad choices.

Aarbrok

My god @Lim, someone pretty much give this guy a cookie, where is @Ere when I need them.