I asked the order "Hey is this war worthy" and they said sure - I mean, what recourse do we have? Players will ALWAYS LOSE TO GODS. That's why I am so upset.
What's odd is I asked for blood, war, and blanket enemy statuses. Moirean built an embassy and pushed for diplomacy. 1 irl year later and were on the same page. If we're going to be enemies were going to be enemies.
Also, downvote me all you want. It doesn't make the guard layout any less derpy. We picked that spot to raid because it was a badly-done guard layout. This really needs to be understood. Enorian created a guard vacuum where we could pull in guards and kill them 1 by 1 and let them reset until we easily cleared out your entire guardstack. We used those rooms because of the the bad layout.
Downvoting me doesn't make that any less true. This is a fairly objective fact that anyone analyzing your guards could have seen. The temple itself didn't even really matter for the killing. The same result would have happened because of bad guard array.
The reason I - and others - am upset is that this sort of thing is something gods have no business in. Gods should not meddle with things like PK and raiding. It's the last way we, as players, have to generate conflict. Once gods get involved, stuff ends, conflict ends, game over man.
And that's fine - being enemies is fine. The only diplomacy I've seen was trying to get herself unenemied and OOC statements about having the embassy, and snippets of conversation IC that boil down to 'give us what we want but we won't really negotiate because glory of Spinesreach' which equates to 'no point in having a conversation' or the shouting of Enorian of 'no they're all bad they'll just abuse it we don't want that'.
There is an incredibly strong kneejerk to the prospect of lifting the statuses due to the inevitable abuse of noobs being used as raiding points (not that that would necessarily change that raids will occasionally happen regardless, but that it's inviting them further and making more of a weak spot). That is the biggest hurdle I've been trying to work through with people.
Since guard changes raiding has pretty much ended except for the last 3-4 raids over the past year which were exclusively because the blanket status exists.
Also, yeah, @jensen is right - if you guys are raging about us raiding you? Your own entire fault. I've been trying for a REAL LIFE YEAR to make nice with lifers. I built rooms, I offered NPCs, I tried to write treaties, I gently nudged via politics - and Enorian gives absolutely zero shits. You guys have invited the raids that are coming.
Noobs played zero factor at all in the last two raids. One was having a house, the second was me phasing in and analyzing your derpy guard layout. Claiming newbs will fuck you guys over is so dumb - pissed off Moireans will do a lot more damage than 10 newbs, and people rolling alts just to be infiltration points have REPEATEDLY been cited as something ban-worthy by the admin.
Also, downvote me all you want. It doesn't make the guard layout any less derpy. We picked that spot to raid because it was a badly-done guard layout. This really needs to be understood. Enorian created a guard vacuum where we could pull in guards and kill them 1 by 1 and let them reset until we easily cleared out your entire guardstack. We used those rooms because of the the bad layout.
If said God didn't dump his temple (boat) where it was, then you wouldn't have no way to raid at that spot.. so its not Enorians fault its the GODS or the person in charge of his order who screwed over Enorian.
From the 5 people who spoke to me about it, that was moved to that spot and only two people can move it, the GOD or the Order head. Neither was online when you was raiding and only 2 enorian people, 1 being at work so on the website login. @moirean
If your using a Gods Temple to raid from, Why doesn't a God have business in zapping all your asses? or kicking you out of the temple? find a better spot then his temple to raid from? oh no.. You cant as Enorian most likely doesn't have one ... lol
I'm not raging about you raiding. I'm irritated with the continual tired method of "give me what I want or I'll hurt you," because that only plants people's feet further into the ground. You say you've tried and tried but I haven't seen anything other than trying to get yourself unenemied when Rashar brought it up and talk of the Embassy, but then when it came time to an -actual negotiation not just demands-, silence. I haven't seen anything else. That could certainly be due to a failure in communication with Enorian, which is likely, however you could have tried to talk to each Herald and cosy us up, had your Ambassador talk to ours, etc.
I'm alright with everything that happened, for the most part. Raiding Enorian on repeat seems like a pretty unproductive way to get them to drop enemy statuses, though. I mean, if you're just raiding because fuck it, let's raid? Sure, sweet. Do it up, I'm down. I've got no reason -not- to anymore. But, uh. If you were actually expecting that to accomplish anything, you might have been going about it wrong.
That said, the Holy War.. You have said it yourself enough times that Holy Wars suck for everybody. It's getting a bit ridiculous that you continue to pull this card every time you get pissed off and want to step just -that- much more on people's toes. You've got enough weight to handle things without ruining people's entire day.
Don't even bother justifying it by saying you talked to them and they said sure. That's a complete copout. It's like members of the Syssin going on and on about how they don't actually liiiike their policies, but RP bro. Of course they're going to say sure. It's an Order full of evil PKers - and you're about to spend a day trolling an Order that has all of a handful of members. And how many of them even PK?
And no, 'It's the only tool I had to stab back with' is not cutting it. Not the first time, not even the second time. Certainly not the third time. By now, you're just being asinine. Go to sleep, and tomorrow we'd appreciate the Moirean that does really awesome things for the game and makes it funner for everybody.
Candle-lit chambers of the Enorian Embassy. (Spinesreach.) Bright candlelight gleams off white-washed walls in this simple, stark set of offices. Designed for use by emissaries from Enorian, the chambers are refined and somber, with heavy azure curtains and carved ivory furniture the sole adornments beyond a large portrait depicting the Revelation. The area's main feature, the painting is as tall as a Troll and depicts - in fantastic, devoted detail - that famous moment from the Beacon's history, with a wide-eyed woman next to an angel blazing with holy light. Aside from this, there is an austere design to the chambers, with a large desk set in the center of the room, while smaller cubbies are set aside for diligent, dutiful scribes to assist the southern ambassadors in their work. A conscripted Spirean soldier statue coldly scans the area for threats. Resting on the ground is a cube-shaped silver sigil. A sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the ground. You see a single exit leading west.
Last time I was here I proposed a treaty for unifying in world-threatening circumstances. Enorian unilaterally denied it. Sorry if I can't devote the time every week or two to offer the same stuff to your new council.
From my recollection our ambassadors have been denied talks on principle of our shadow tether. Threats of violence have only been in the last two irl months due to frustration and the initial raid in August 2013 when we all got enemied. To @nalor place 5 guards at the temple entrance = no raid. Poor placement on you guys, we got punished for being tactical
@rashar - what way would YOU pick to respond to a god who directly interfered with your large-scale PK mechanic? A holy war is.....a large scale PK mechanic...
From my recollection our ambassadors have been denied talks on principle of our shadow tether. Threats of violence have only been in the last two irl months due to frustration and the initial raid in August 2013 when we all got enemied. To @nalor place 5 guards at the temple entrance = no raid. Poor placement on you guys, we got punished for being tactical
You got punished for raiding a Gods temple .. Lol.. not for being tactical .. @Jensen
I'm not even sure ANYONE knew the God placed his temple in Enorian as I had two people (pkers from enorian) ask me where the boat/temple was.. (( Im not 100% sure what the heck it is in enorian, if its staying or what but someone said it was a boat))
So back to the point, if you want to raid a temple to raid a city, Stop crying when a God steps in or find a better spot IN ENORIAN which doesn't involve a Gods temple!!
I can't remember any requests, so if they have happened, I am sorry that that never got anywhere.
However, at least keep in mind that Spinesreach and Spinesreach's happiness isn't our priority? We've had four Vanguards in the last year, multiple council turn overs (which means everything gets restarted because votes change), world wide events, local events, and our own work to try to figure out how to un-mess Enorian on top of the usual kinds of drama and issues that just slows everything down. We can't all be charismatic leaders ready to take charge and unicorns the consequences.
And none of us have complained that you were raiding from a temple, only that this temper tantrum into a holy war because a god wasn't OK with you being all up in their special place is irrational and out of proportion to the act. It's like being mad at someone for kicking you out of their bedroom because you were spray-painting penii on their walls.
Edit: Doing some thinking, I do vaguely recall the world-wide treaty thing, and that being veto'd because it was deemed unnecessary. Never been a need to have a legally binding contract when it came to Kerrithrim or Dreikathi, and BL tried to ally with Nazedha, so best to just address each as they come up.
Probably not by making all the players in his Order not want to log on for the next week.
I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy.
Pretend you lead multiple orgs. Given the mechanics you have to pick from, which one would you pick to fight a god? I get that you don't like holy wars, but a god punked around with us. A holy war is the most fitting response.
From my recollection our ambassadors have been denied talks on principle of our shadow tether. Threats of violence have only been in the last two irl months due to frustration and the initial raid in August 2013 when we all got enemied. To @nalor place 5 guards at the temple entrance = no raid. Poor placement on you guys, we got punished for being tactical
You got punished for raiding a Gods temple .. Lol.. not for being tactical .. @Jensen
I'm not even sure ANYONE knew the God placed his temple in Enorian as I had two people (pkers from enorian) ask me where the boat/temple was.. (( Im not 100% sure what the heck it is in enorian, if its staying or what but someone said it was a boat))
So back to the point, if you want to raid a temple to raid a city, Stop crying when a God steps in or find a better spot IN ENORIAN which doesn't involve a Gods temple!!
I didn't get punished for anything. It just shut down raiding before it began and will ultimately end with blanket enemy statuses to Enorian, her guilds, and orders. I'm also not the upset one, I just feel like standing up for moirean because I understand her frustration.
From my recollection our ambassadors have been denied talks on principle of our shadow tether. Threats of violence have only been in the last two irl months due to frustration and the initial raid in August 2013 when we all got enemied. To @nalor place 5 guards at the temple entrance = no raid. Poor placement on you guys, we got punished for being tactical
You got punished for raiding a Gods temple .. Lol.. not for being tactical .. @Jensen
I'm not even sure ANYONE knew the God placed his temple in Enorian as I had two people (pkers from enorian) ask me where the boat/temple was.. (( Im not 100% sure what the heck it is in enorian, if its staying or what but someone said it was a boat))
So back to the point, if you want to raid a temple to raid a city, Stop crying when a God steps in or find a better spot IN ENORIAN which doesn't involve a Gods temple!!
That's the thing. That ENTIRE STRETCH OF BEACH was guardless. We were not raiding Damariel's temple. We were raiding Enorian, and anyone with any shred of perception would have realized that, due to the 50+ guards we killed.
@areka - the city's constant political change is exactly what I mean. I got tired of trying to coddle up to the new vanguard and track the politics. I warned Phen LAST raid that this wasn't an isolated incident, that it was just a warning for what to expect if Eno kept up their policy. This raiding was heavily warned in advance.
That is problem solving on a level far below what I know you're capable of, Moirean.
You're punishing players that weren't even around for the actions of their IC God - in what you're claiming (true or not) to be an overstep of his bounds. And by punishing, I mean ruining a week of their gameplay. They'll be building shrines tonight and tomorrow. Then they'll spend a day either hiding in the city or their haven to avoid the lolPK squad that is Iosyne. Then they'll spend a week raising shrines instead of doing other things like hunt, RP, PK, or just.. play the game.
Damariel doesn't give a shit that you declared war, man. He's not staying up all night PKing (read: dying). He's not building shrines. He's not losing hours of (and maybe -all- of) his Aetolia time this week because you got pissed off again and wielded an Order like a bludgeon.
What the fuck does Iosyne's Order even have to do with the raids against Enorian, or the reaction of one of their Patrons in moving -his- area so that it can't be used. If that's even what happened?
That's like the America declaring war on Canada because you got beat up at a bar in Quebec.
Again, in what world does "We're going to be aggressive enemies until you stop treating us like enemies," make ANY SENSE in creating change?
It doesn't matter if you were raiding Enorian - you were in a god's temple, they have full right to act within their temple, and it's irrational and delusional to expect them to just smile and nod or to get into such a wad about them doing things in their temple.
And yes, @jensen says it as the truth - end of the day, I'm trying to create a DYNAMIC AND INTERACTIVE response to a dumb as fuck policy. I'm trying to make conflict and tease out stuff from a really one-sided and derpy thing.
Default response will just be to enemy and bounty you guys. Given the messages enemy status (to ONLY the heralds) alone has caused, you hypocrites can't even deal with a simple wrist slap.
@rashar - yeah, it kinda sucks for them, but we're given zero tools to fight a god. I've played this game for a decade. Declaring holy war pisses off the god a lot more than anything else I can do.
That is problem solving on a level far below what I know you're capable of, Moirean.
You're punishing players that weren't even around for the actions of their IC God - in what you're claiming (true or not) to be an overstep of his bounds. And by punishing, I mean ruining a week of their gameplay. They'll be building shrines tonight and tomorrow. Then they'll spend a day either hiding in the city or their haven to avoid the lolPK squad that is Iosyne. Then they'll spend a week raising shrines instead of doing other things like hunt, RP, PK, or just.. play the game.
Damariel doesn't give a shit that you declared war, man. He's not staying up all night PKing (read: dying). He's not building shrines. He's not losing hours of (and maybe -all- of) his Aetolia time this week because you got pissed off again and wielded an Order like a bludgeon.
What the fuck does Iosyne's Order even have to do with the raids against Enorian, or the reaction of one of their Patrons in moving -his- area so that it can't be used. If that's even what happened?
That's like the America declaring war on Canada because you got beat up at a bar in Quebec.
This logic is why conflict in this game is going downhill. An order member didn't act, it was the god themself. Burn down shrines? At. Half hour per with days of pk aura? No thanks, if he found another mortal lover I'd murder her twice.
Comments
Not that getting stuff done got me included on the cityfavor list until I pointed out I was there for 40 minutes of the 50 minute raid. Grumble.
Downvoting me doesn't make that any less true. This is a fairly objective fact that anyone analyzing your guards could have seen. The temple itself didn't even really matter for the killing. The same result would have happened because of bad guard array.
The reason I - and others - am upset is that this sort of thing is something gods have no business in. Gods should not meddle with things like PK and raiding. It's the last way we, as players, have to generate conflict. Once gods get involved, stuff ends, conflict ends, game over man.
There is an incredibly strong kneejerk to the prospect of lifting the statuses due to the inevitable abuse of noobs being used as raiding points (not that that would necessarily change that raids will occasionally happen regardless, but that it's inviting them further and making more of a weak spot). That is the biggest hurdle I've been trying to work through with people.
If said God didn't dump his temple (boat) where it was, then you wouldn't have no way to raid at that spot.. so its not Enorians fault its the GODS or the person in charge of his order who screwed over Enorian.
From the 5 people who spoke to me about it, that was moved to that spot and only two people can move it, the GOD or the Order head. Neither was online when you was raiding and only 2 enorian people, 1 being at work so on the website login. @moirean
If your using a Gods Temple to raid from, Why doesn't a God have business in zapping all your asses? or kicking you out of the temple? find a better spot then his temple to raid from? oh no.. You cant as Enorian most likely doesn't have one ... lol
That said, the Holy War.. You have said it yourself enough times that Holy Wars suck for everybody. It's getting a bit ridiculous that you continue to pull this card every time you get pissed off and want to step just -that- much more on people's toes. You've got enough weight to handle things without ruining people's entire day.
Don't even bother justifying it by saying you talked to them and they said sure. That's a complete copout. It's like members of the Syssin going on and on about how they don't actually liiiike their policies, but RP bro. Of course they're going to say sure. It's an Order full of evil PKers - and you're about to spend a day trolling an Order that has all of a handful of members. And how many of them even PK?
And no, 'It's the only tool I had to stab back with' is not cutting it. Not the first time, not even the second time. Certainly not the third time. By now, you're just being asinine. Go to sleep, and tomorrow we'd appreciate the Moirean that does really awesome things for the game and makes it funner for everybody.
Candle-lit chambers of the Enorian Embassy. (Spinesreach.)
Bright candlelight gleams off white-washed walls in this simple, stark set of offices. Designed for use by emissaries from Enorian, the chambers are refined and somber, with heavy azure curtains and carved ivory furniture the sole adornments beyond a large portrait depicting the Revelation. The area's main feature, the painting is as tall as a Troll and depicts - in fantastic, devoted detail - that famous moment from the Beacon's history, with a wide-eyed woman next to an angel blazing with holy light. Aside from this, there is an austere design to the chambers, with a large desk set in the center of the room, while smaller cubbies are set aside for diligent, dutiful scribes to assist the southern ambassadors in their work. A conscripted Spirean soldier statue coldly scans the area for threats. Resting on the ground is a cube-shaped silver sigil. A sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the ground.
You see a single exit leading west.
Last time I was here I proposed a treaty for unifying in world-threatening circumstances. Enorian unilaterally denied it. Sorry if I can't devote the time every week or two to offer the same stuff to your new council.
I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy.
You got punished for raiding a Gods temple .. Lol.. not for being tactical .. @Jensen
I'm not even sure ANYONE knew the God placed his temple in Enorian as I had two people (pkers from enorian) ask me where the boat/temple was.. (( Im not 100% sure what the heck it is in enorian, if its staying or what but someone said it was a boat))
So back to the point, if you want to raid a temple to raid a city, Stop crying when a God steps in or find a better spot IN ENORIAN which doesn't involve a Gods temple!!
However, at least keep in mind that Spinesreach and Spinesreach's happiness isn't our priority? We've had four Vanguards in the last year, multiple council turn overs (which means everything gets restarted because votes change), world wide events, local events, and our own work to try to figure out how to un-mess Enorian on top of the usual kinds of drama and issues that just slows everything down. We can't all be charismatic leaders ready to take charge and unicorns the consequences.
And none of us have complained that you were raiding from a temple, only that this temper tantrum into a holy war because a god wasn't OK with you being all up in their special place is irrational and out of proportion to the act. It's like being mad at someone for kicking you out of their bedroom because you were spray-painting penii on their walls.
Edit: Doing some thinking, I do vaguely recall the world-wide treaty thing, and that being veto'd because it was deemed unnecessary. Never been a need to have a legally binding contract when it came to Kerrithrim or Dreikathi, and BL tried to ally with Nazedha, so best to just address each as they come up.
@areka - the city's constant political change is exactly what I mean. I got tired of trying to coddle up to the new vanguard and track the politics. I warned Phen LAST raid that this wasn't an isolated incident, that it was just a warning for what to expect if Eno kept up their policy. This raiding was heavily warned in advance.
You're punishing players that weren't even around for the actions of their IC God - in what you're claiming (true or not) to be an overstep of his bounds. And by punishing, I mean ruining a week of their gameplay. They'll be building shrines tonight and tomorrow. Then they'll spend a day either hiding in the city or their haven to avoid the lolPK squad that is Iosyne. Then they'll spend a week raising shrines instead of doing other things like hunt, RP, PK, or just.. play the game.
Damariel doesn't give a shit that you declared war, man. He's not staying up all night PKing (read: dying). He's not building shrines. He's not losing hours of (and maybe -all- of) his Aetolia time this week because you got pissed off again and wielded an Order like a bludgeon.
What the fuck does Iosyne's Order even have to do with the raids against Enorian, or the reaction of one of their Patrons in moving -his- area so that it can't be used. If that's even what happened?
That's like the America declaring war on Canada because you got beat up at a bar in Quebec.
It doesn't matter if you were raiding Enorian - you were in a god's temple, they have full right to act within their temple, and it's irrational and delusional to expect them to just smile and nod or to get into such a wad about them doing things in their temple.
Default response will just be to enemy and bounty you guys. Given the messages enemy status (to ONLY the heralds) alone has caused, you hypocrites can't even deal with a simple wrist slap.
@rashar - yeah, it kinda sucks for them, but we're given zero tools to fight a god. I've played this game for a decade. Declaring holy war pisses off the god a lot more than anything else I can do.