Exterminations

Elie

Even better!

Moirean

Whatever solution you guys DO decide on, please retain the essence restoration option. While exterminate can be dramallama like it is now, it's also a valid way to get essence back and some of us use it for that.

Gwenith

There are things In the works. That is all. Now bring me a banana.

Serrice

RAISE CORPSE AS BANANA.

Mephistoles

Xavin said:

@Moirean - Except it doesn't undo the extermination. At all. And I would really appreciate it if you would stop suggesting that we ignore the part of duiran's role that says 'we do this when that happens'. Because the second we start ignoring it, what will happen? People will say 'lol, we made them so angry they just stopped, duiran sucks'.

This is from a little bit further back, but who cares what other people think? Who cares if you're doing the right thing. First and foremost, Aetolia is a game. And you should play it in a way that's enjoyable. We should all be doing that. If what you're doing isn't fun, change what you're doing. Don't ask other people to change what they're doing, change what your character is doing. So long as it's something that your character would actually, plausibly do, why do you care about people going 'lol' about what you're doing? Just find something fun that your character would do and go out and do it.

Serrice

Uh. So it's okay if I hunt down newbies constantly and grief them until they don't want to play because, hey, I shouldn't care what they think! I'm out for my own enjoyment!

Yeah, that'd go over well with the admin.

Mephistoles

There is a big difference between generating conflict between experienced players and newbie killing. You've played enough, and fought enough, to know that difference.

Gwenith

Serrice said:

RAISE CORPSE AS BANANA.

Ishin

ZOMBIE NANNER. EPIC.

Eleanor

/thread

Xavin

Mephistoles said:

Xavin said:

@Moirean - Except it doesn't undo the extermination. At all. And I would really appreciate it if you would stop suggesting that we ignore the part of duiran's role that says 'we do this when that happens'. Because the second we start ignoring it, what will happen? People will say 'lol, we made them so angry they just stopped, duiran sucks'.

This is from a little bit further back, but who cares what other people think? Who cares if you're doing the right thing. First and foremost, Aetolia is a game. And you should play it in a way that's enjoyable. We should all be doing that. If what you're doing isn't fun, change what you're doing. Don't ask other people to change what they're doing, change what your character is doing. So long as it's something that your character would actually, plausibly do, why do you care about people going 'lol' about what you're doing? Just find something fun that your character would do and go out and do it.

Have you not been paying attention to how Aetolia works? I'm honestly curious here. Because if you just start to ignore someone, particularly the sorts that are behind this whole incident, you end up having to put up with a bunch of self-satisfied bs being shouted/tell'd/posted about/etc. Because people aren't willing to just let things go.
*edit The most recent exchange on the public news board is a good example of that, really.

@Moirean is it absolutely needed? Necromancy has other ways to regain essence built into it. Why should something that is so easily abused be allowed to remain without major changes at the very least?

Riluo

Come on guys this whole thing is just getting rather silly now.

Lim

I thought that this matter could have been handled a bit better.

It's undeniable that Bloodloch's combat ability is on top right now. This may be true as a matter of mechanics, but it is an also an in-game fact, or a political reality. Think of them as Aetolia's military superpower.

Thus, from an IC standpoint, I don't understand why Duiran used the staff. If there had been any wisdom, the leaders(?) would have foreseen that using the staff would devolve into an armed conflict. This is an armed conflict that Duiran would lose, and on a player-level, feel griefed, abused and beaten. Now, this decision might have been clouded by OOC factors - ooh, God gave us this staff, let's use it. It could be that you're RP'ing rash political leaders who get their emotions clouded in an attack against the forest - perfectly viable RP too, but consider - how about -not- using the staff? That, too, is an IC choice.

In real life, where a country cannot win a fight against another, strong leaders find alternative solutions. It could mean sucking your thumb and getting humiliated and bullied, it could mean building up your military power in the mean time and enact revenge when you yourself become the superpower. It could mean seeking help from allies. It could mean launching an attack on the economy with soft power (dunno how that's done though - buy all the comms as a stop-gap?). In the game, we have the additional avenue of beseeching Gods for help.

The in-game solution would have been to seek an alternative source of power to beat the opponent. The crux of the problem wasn't that they have exterminate and you don't have an equivalent ability. The crux of the problem was that they have superior numbers and ability, and you don't, or that those who could otherwise be beaten, can't be pinned down. The solution therefore would have been to do something else - or at the least, decide not use the staff. You may called a coward, lose the respect of your citizens, but that is a very real political conundrum that leaders face, even in the real world. All this is part of playing the political side to this game, where at least in this respect, it does mimic real life.

Just my two cents worth.

Mephistoles

Xavin said:

Have you not been paying attention to how Aetolia works? I'm honestly curious here. Because if you just start to ignore someone, particularly the sorts that are behind this whole incident, you end up having to put up with a bunch of self-satisfied bs being shouted/tell'd/posted about/etc. Because people aren't willing to just let things go.

It kind of sounds like you're complaining that you won't be perceived as winning or perhaps getting the last word. Why, on an OOC level, does it matter that people will shout, tell, or post things?

Xavin

@Mephistoles no, I'm stating the fact that if we take the so-called high road and 'ignore is' people will tear into Duiran over it. And, if you hadn't noticed, player perception DOES drive org population. So we get taunted if we do engage, we get bitched at when we set bounties to hunt down the people that have been attacking us, and we get bitched at if we do nothing. There is, quite literally, no way to come out ahead for us. The indorani actually claimed we were greifing -them- with setting bounties/going after exterminators

@Lim what would you suggest? Bloodloch will -always- have more numbers, and will pretty much -always- have more hihg-end pkers. The only time it didn't? Was when the vast majority of them ragequit aetolia over losing a war. The problem isn't and wasn't to do with numbers at all. The crux of the problem was this. There is no way to hold an indorani down long enough to actually get the kill when they really want to run. This means that they are, basically, free to harass Duiran and there is very little we can actually do about it.


And you can't tell me this sort of thing isn't at least edging towards harassment:

2014/07/04 15:02:57 - Wylliam > Fourteen locations were done in Ilhavon by Gabriele again.
2014/07/04 15:10:42 - Wylliam > Five areas in western ithmia, done by Gabirele.
2014/07/04 15:14:20 - Wylliam > Thirteen locations in Northern Ithmia, by Gabriele.
2014/07/04 15:15:47 - Wylliam > Five locations in the Kalydian by Gabriele.

That's 37 locations done by one person because they want to be a unicorns.

Mephistoles

Xavin said:

@Mephistoles no, I'm stating the fact that if we take the so-called high road and 'ignore is' people will tear into Duiran over it. And, if you hadn't noticed, player perception DOES drive org population. So we get taunted if we do engage, we get bitched at when we set bounties to hunt down the people that have been attacking us, and we get bitched at if we do nothing.

I feel like at this point you're just complaining about conflict in Aetolia in a general sense and not extermination specifically anymore.

Xavin

More this supposed conflict than conflict in general. I mean, when we reacted we got accused of greifing the people who started the 'conflict'. How is that right?

Lim

@Xavin‌

Well, I think it depends on how you want to play your character.

Escalating it (like what was done in this case) is an entirely viable route - think George W. Bush and the Iraq war. The move was popular at the time, but on hindsight, it was a massive cock-up and then there was backlash years after. That's one interesting way to play a leader. The decision isn't bad. It is flavour. Remember, we're also telling a story.

Being calculated about it would also be pretty interesting - the only thing is I hope there are intelligent players out there who would be able to appreciate the nuance. Saying 'No, we got this staff, but the right choice isn't to use it' may be hard to swallow, and might even cost political capital, but hopefully some scribe/commentator somewhere is going to say 'yeah, it sucked, but on hindsight, he/she made the right choice'.

Because in-game mechanics are a poor reflection of real life - only one possible ally, no perma-deaths, no developed economy dimension, etc. In Aetolia, it seems to me that there are only two developed dimensions of gameplay - RP and PvP. The options are unfortunately limited. If it were me personally, I'd probably want to play the calculated leader - possibly get boo'd for it - but try to make up for it by scheming up something else with one of the forestal Gods (something that others have been suggesting, and I guess I agree is the more obvious solution).

And then think about what scheme to hatch. It needs to be something that targets the crux of it. Not a staff that creates jungle rooms - that misdiagnoses the problem. Maybe a staff that shuts down the escape abilities of the Indorani. If nullifying pathfinder/hermit is too harsh, then make it area only, or make it for a limited time, or make it such that there's only one staff that can be used, or make it such that there is a cooldown, or make it such that it shuts down all escape abilities, regardless of side, etc. Omei was shouting about them being cowardly and sending her wolves on them - She's obviously in agreement that they are cowards and need to be stopped from running. If a thingy that mechanically disables the pathfinder/hermit skills is too hard to code, then maybe temporary placing in Duiran's command wolves/mobs that attack and destroy the pathfinder (delete mob function?), or sniffs out the hermit card and rips them up (delete item function?), or bites and gives the stuttering(?) affliction (regular mob affliction?) to prevent wings/caverns arti.

Then see from there where it takes the arc.

Now, that's the short term solution. The longer term solution is a bigger headache - how do you get balanced the PvP dimension on both sides? I think that's something even the Admin has trouble figuring out. It's obviously not a class design issue - at least for me, I believe the lighter classes are a lot more fun to play because they're more nuanced/balanced/strong. The main reason only I don't play my lighter alt as much is because it's a less interesting character/I have less friends, etc. not because the PvP is any less fun.

TBH, that's a proper discussion I wish we could have so we can figure out how to make the game more fun for everyone.

Ishin

I have a really hard time believing you guys couldn't get enough people down to hold Gabriele still long enough to kill her. She blackwinds a lot? Pack fireflies and cubes. She pathfinders? Keep her stunned, prone, or just orb the pathfinder every time you go in.

Sometimes I can't tell if you guys are being legit, or if you're just like...so unused to actually having to FIGHT people without some knowledgeable PvPer holding your hand and telling you what to do.

Aarbrok

EDIT: Something, Something Gabriele...(I shouldn't be so mean)

Aishia

I can only imagine how you people being so flippant would deal with this situation if you were on the other side of it. Most of you are not even on the OTHER other side of it. No one likes being trolled, griefed, poked at with some text-words that their text-people feel text-inclined to find text-offensive. I doubt you'd do any better trying to catch a fleeing Indorani! Probably worse. Should we really keep a huge gank squad on alert all day to kill people nonstop? Just with the way this mechanic is designed, this situation could be FAR worse if pushed to its absolute. How do you think we'd feel inclined to react if like 10 Indorani were doing this? The whole freaking game could be exterminated and we'd spend more time going around to fix rooms than anything. Maybe they'd eventually run out of ash! Is anyone arguing that hard coded limitations or a mechanical change could be a bad thing? That's almost always the best way to deal with an issue one way or the other. It's not like the antagonists are demonstrating their want for conflict or RP to resolve the issue, even griefkilling them 10xd6 times seems to leave them unfazed.

Seir

Ishin said:

I have a really hard time believing you guys couldn't get enough people down to hold Gabriele still long enough to kill her. She blackwinds a lot? Pack fireflies and cubes. She pathfinders? Keep her stunned, prone, or just orb the pathfinder every time you go in.

Sometimes I can't tell if you guys are being legit, or if you're just like...so unused to actually having to FIGHT people without some knowledgeable PvPer holding your hand and telling you what to do.

For the same reason none of Spinesreach could hold Daskalos down when he was lightforming and murdering a bunch of guards with no one able to stop him despite people having fireflies/eye sigils. You really can't use that argument when you guys complained about the very same thing incessantly not that long ago (and was the reason we have Cubes in their current incarnation to begin with, but it's not feasible or realistic to expect us to cube/flame an entire forest)

Edit: And please get rid of this baseless assumption that spirit PK'ers aren't knowledgeable or don't know what to do. We both know you're just trying to stir the pot at this point.

Edit2: I'm also going to encourage a mod to close this thread. It's pretty much a circular argument at this point and is a demonstration that there will be a division among the playerbase based on faction no matter what the issue is. The administration and the liaison process will be the deciding factor and this thread devolved awhile ago.

Aarbrok

There is a huge difference between the ability of Daskalos and Gabriele. Just sayin

Seir

My point is that it doesn't take much to lightform/blackwind and run around evading entire groups doing it. Dask did it in more difficult conditions and Gabriele is doing it in an area without guards. It's still pretty easy.

Alexina

I've lazily watched this thread from a distance and just now decided that I want to chime in.

1. I'd politely like to request not calling people out on the forums, please. I really don't want to think worse of other people on either an OOC or IC level based on one-sided information provided in a thread as argumentative as this one. For those of us not personally involved in the doings of the Indorani or Duiran, it just makes specific characters come across as giant griefers and people that're detrimental to the game when in fact this might not actually be the case. It's one thing if people are referring to their own actions, but bringing someone's name into a conversation they are not participating in seems a bit unfair to them. This may not seem to be a big issue to all that many of you, but I personally would much appreciate if people took a moment to obscure whoever's name in logs if it's going to make them out to be the big bad guy of Aetolia.

2. Repeatedly exterminating rooms over and over again for no apparent reason is pretty grieftastic, if nothing else for the fact that the people playing in Duiran has expressed their concerns over the situation. As the aggressor, you may come up with a thousand arguments why your particular way of attacking or stirring up conflict is acceptable, but if it is forced upon someone that is not interested in it for prolonged periods of time, it will be so very, very, very frustrating to deal with. There's no right or wrong here, or if there is, both sides are right and wrong. No one can win the argument. Still, it is possible to acknowledge that your own actions have begun antagonizing the players belonging to the other faction, rather than the characters. This, in my opinion, is when you need to take a step back and examine your own motives and see if your particular course of action is contributing to the overall well-being of the game.

3. That said, if necromancers need a specific way to attack Duiran as a whole, please change the skill in a way that opens up for conflict to those who are genuinely interested in it rather than forcing it on a select few who see it as their obligation to take on an overwhelming force for the sake of their roleplay. Constantly being forced into the role of a martyr is also frustrating and boring in the long run, unless you choose to embrace that role on your own terms. Additionally, I do not understand why people are so bothered by whining or complaints on the forums. If anything, I think this is the place to vent your concerns when there is an aspect of the game that takes away fun rather than adds it.

Gwenith

2014/07/04 15:02:57 - Wylliam > Fourteen locations were done in Ilhavon by Gabriele again.
2014/07/04 15:10:42 - Wylliam > Five areas in western ithmia, done by Gabirele.
2014/07/04 15:14:20 - Wylliam > Thirteen locations in Northern Ithmia, by Gabriele.
2014/07/04 15:15:47 - Wylliam > Five locations in the Kalydian by Gabriele.
2014/07/04 15:45:13 - Wylliam > Nine locations in Aureliana Forest by Gabriele.
2014/07/04 15:56:07 - Wylliam > Four locations exterminated by Gabriele in Dakhota Hills.
2014/07/04 16:16:39 - Wylliam > At least fifty locations in Scidve, nearly the whole forests.
2014/07/04 16:17:18 - Wylliam > All by Gabriele..
2014/07/04 16:35:09 - Wylliam > Five locations in Torston by Gabriele.
2014/07/04 16:37:54 - Wylliam > Ten locations done in shamtota hills.
2014/07/04 16:41:55 - Wylliam > Three locations in The Isle of Mostyn.
2014/07/04 16:44:33 - Wylliam > Two areas in Central wilderness by Gabriele.
2014/07/04 18:38:54 - Wylliam > Two locations in Ollin by Gabriele.

~122 areas done in a RL day.

It's a bit of a crux for the forestal community. I know that before Wylliam logged in for his patrols we had about 4-6 members of Duiran online and none of the were sentinel classed (I think). Only Sentinels can step into a forest and tell if there is extermination in there somewhere, all other classes have to go from room to room searching. Only sentinels can identify who did the exterminating. It's getting ridiculous.

Xavin

Technically anyone with concoctions can identify an exterminator. But it requires 10 ice per room.

Riluo

EDITED:
I am not getting into this, but I left my comment below still, as I think it is rude to not leave it. Honestly if she is doing this you need to all gank her and teach her a lesson, I wish you luck and do not be discouraged, just get creative.

I hope this does not come off as cruel or rude to you guys.

But dear god just Kill her! If I can lock her down with a $50 tablet, whilst sitting in a tractor in rural Australia on wireless (56kb-80kb speeds), with only firstaid anyone can do it with a concept of her classes. Is it hard? Yes. I had to change tactic a few times (manual attacking by the way no AI here). But she dies and after a few kills she will stop, trust me I know.

Damonicus

How about ....we close this up. All parties have said what was needed. I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.

Elyni

Riluo said:

EDITED:
I am not getting into this, but I left my comment below still, as I think it is rude to not leave it. Honestly if she is doing this you need to all gank her and teach her a lesson, I wish you luck and do not be discouraged, just get creative.

I hope this does not come off as cruel or rude to you guys.

But dear god just Kill her! If I can lock her down with a $50 tablet, whilst sitting in a tractor in rural Australia on wireless (56kb-80kb speeds), with only firstaid anyone can do it with a concept of her classes. Is it hard? Yes. I had to change tactic a few times (manual attacking by the way no AI here). But she dies and after a few kills she will stop, trust me I know.

Illidan killed her -13- times consecutively, in the span of about an hour. You know what she did? Phased for 2-3 hours, then went straight back to doing it.