Exterminations

Seir

We all know that if the shoe was on the other foot, the other side would be complaining. Let's try to refrain from claims of "white knighting" and how one side is complaining more than the other. Both sides are equally guilty of bitching at every opportunity and will disagree with one another for the sake of disagreeing, irregardless of whether or not the statement that one side made was factual.

Point is, Duiran's bounty system for exterminations used to be on a one-for-one basis. I was the Benandanti of Bark and Minister of Security for a long time back then but I absolutely hated giving out bounties for it as did the others, but we needed to issue bounties for it because people were exterminating in the Eastern Ithmia and then claiming that we weren't allowed to retaliate because they weren't in "line of sight" for Duiran. One issue later and we were affirmed that we can bounty for exterminations. However, due to complaints on both sides, the 'one-for-one' policy became a policy where you will get one bounty for every two exterminations, the exception being if you do just one room, we can still give you one bounty for it. Now the Indorani GM wants to complain about it. I would have no issues with this as a conflict medium if there was actually a means of retaliation. Conflict does not involve exterminating when no one is looking and then running away every time a forestal so much as looks at you funny because you were caught red-handed. That is not conflict, that is not "roleplay". That is being a dick for the sake of being a dick and hiding behind some flimsy pretense of "roleplay". How do I know? I would pull dickery of a similar nature on Lusternia on organizations like Celest, Magnagora, and Serenwilde on a regular basis.

If you want to keep exterminate conflict, then there needs to be more inherent risk to doing it. It should be channeled and send off a warning to forestals through some innate ability. However, the downside to this is that I'm pretty sure even with this in place, people will start the channel just to proc the forestal ability and then run away to be an ass. That is what we're pretty much dealing with already, so I don't see anything changing.

In any event, Aetolia has shown time and time again that there are zero consequences for the actions that people pull because they can just run from any and all fights with zero way of forcing someone to finally own up to what their character has done via conflict or attacking. This is largely due to the number of escape mechanisms present in the game, as well as the fact that someone can bunker down completely by spamming shield.

Jensen

I like it and it sounds like it's being used in an interesting manner. Kudos.



PS. Don't whine about stacked bounties, you made the bed now lie in it. Want the Indo's to stop exterminating? Do what I used to do, go right into Bloodloch and kill them.

Xavin

As an aside, it's now been scaled back even more, and has been for a while. We do one per three, but if you only do one or two you still get a bounty.

Seir

Jensen said:

I like it and it sounds like it's being used in an interesting manner. Kudos.



PS. Don't whine about stacked bounties, you made the bed now lie in it. Want the Indo's to stop exterminating? Do what I used to do, go right into Bloodloch and kill them.

Except no one is complaining. It's just disproportionate because Exterminate has more consequences and lasts, but I don't personally care. I mean, I could pull a certain unnamed Indorani and just neoexterminate everywhere and evade anyone who tries to come after me for it. Given the nature of these forums and what I've heard on shadow webs already, I can guarantee that there will be complaints.

Xavin

If jungle bloom lasted and didn't pull from a god's essence, it would be more in line.

Angwe

I think we should remove the ice cost from Concoctions Naturalism. I also think Chak or somebody should give the Indorani a way to see who used Jungle Bloom.

Rashar

My head hurts.

Ishin

Seir said:

Jensen said:

I like it and it sounds like it's being used in an interesting manner. Kudos.



PS. Don't whine about stacked bounties, you made the bed now lie in it. Want the Indo's to stop exterminating? Do what I used to do, go right into Bloodloch and kill them.

Except no one is complaining. It's just disproportionate because Exterminate has more consequences and lasts, but I don't personally care. I mean, I could pull a certain unnamed Indorani and just neoexterminate everywhere and evade anyone who tries to come after me for it. Given the nature of these forums and what I've heard on shadow webs already, I can guarantee that there will be complaints.

Have you NOT been reading Xavin's fucking posts? I mean, do you have him on forums ignore? If so, please fucking tell me how you did that, so I can do it to you.

Seir

It's not so much complaining so much as it is pointing out flaws within a system. I've seen baseless complaining on this forum (and been guilty of it myself in the past) and I mean this as respectfully as possible, Ishin, but this response sounds more knee-jerk and offers nothing constructive so I'd register that more as a complaint than I would Xavin's criticisms and suggestions. He's at least offering something and not devolving his arguments by resorting to ad hominum.

That being said, I'd much rather go back to the earliest points in this thread and remove extermination and now neo-exterminate in favour of expanded conflict mediums between nature and the earthen that place an obligation on the participants and place a heavy implication towards player/character consequence.

Daskalos

Ok, so as I understand it:

Indorani start exterminating, which has long been considered one of the most trollish skills around. Indorani refuse to engage in dialogue, claiming they're only doing it because they need the essence (which would be akin to me starting a fire because I need the spark and want to consume it).

Duiran responds with bounties, which Indorani then start complaining about, despite it being the only retaliation really possible at the time due to Indorani's incredible escapability (pathfinder, blackwind, standard mapping, et al).

It is suggested for Duiran to just ignore the exterminations (on a personal note, I think 'ignoring the problem' is a terrible solution because it requires you to sacrifice your own RP. With fires this is possible, as the messages fade in time on their own and plants regrow. With extermination, unless the location is rejuvenated, plants never grow again and is permanent.).

Duiran is given magic staves that let them transform desert into forest, one natural area into another natural. This pokes the bear and Bloodloch comes out with bounties of their own. Unlike extermination, after a time the staves wear off, the area reverts naturally, there is no cost to fix, and plants are gone which limits pear.

Bloodloch complains because their villages might revolt and they now want to kill Duiran into submission. Did you ever stop and consider that if you put pressure on the Indorani guild to reign in it could all be stopped?

That's the problem. Generally when someone acts out of line, you move up the food chain and put pressure on them to help control the insolent organization\person. Unfortunately, with Bloodloch the whole political pressure thing doesn't work. Nobody likes to lose and to force the Indorani to back off would require Bloodloch to 'lose'. This won't happen with a group that is dominated by PK'ers who generally enjoy a numbers advantage in most conflicts.

So, unless the admin step in and do something about exterm, even up the things, or whatever, this is the reality we live in.

Ishin

I initially clicked disagree, but I actually do agree with the second part of your post there. I'd give up a whole lot just for some meaningful conflict.

Aarbrok

You know I dont normally agree with Daskalos either, but the last part hit the nail right on the head....meaningful conflict would make so much more sense, because sadly when left to the players this scenario happens.

Moirean

@Daskalos - extermination is fixed on its own at new years. That's why I was saying, ignore the *mechanical* fix if it's tiring, and focus on RP stuff instead (which admin have now given them a fancy tool for). Nobody was saying that Duiran should just sit and do nothing and it's baffling me that multiple people now are paraphrasing posts with that interpretation.

Regarding the pressure thing, I'm kinda boggling at how this is all playing out and how willing people are to pick these fights and stack up these bounties. Dexter never struck me as insanely charismatic, so I figured, oh, maybe people are really starved for conflict, but then I hear that they are running away and not fighting, so, really, I have no idea what's going on in Indo-land. I'm not defending them, if that's what anyone was thinking my posts were doing. I have no idea what's really going on there. I'm just frustrated by the insistence on the mechanical response of rejuvenation and then the frustration ("We *have* to rejuvenate!") that's coming with it, because that sort of inflexible view is a bigger issue we see reflected in a lot of places in Aetolia.

Xavin

The problem, though, Moi, is that the staves don't really offer much of an rp fix to the problem. You do it to an exterminated room, the extermination persists. You do it to a normally unexterminatable room, they can come in and exterminate - which, by the by, persists after the hour passes and the room goes back to normal.

I mean, I guess we can sit and pretend that the staves have a meaningful effect on the outcome, but they don't. All they're really supposed to do is put pressure on Bloodloch, or so I presume. But...we are where we are.

Moirean

Why do you have to go off and fix the room, though? Why not focus stuff on making the exterminators hurt instead, versus fixing stuff? You shift things from a reactionary, passive role into an assertive, active role, which I would think is much more engaging.

Aarbrok

Make the staves rejuvenate?
Saving you the comms, and giving you a free tool that can be used as RP??

Question Mark

I had some RP with @Mariena last night about all this, she has a good attitude IC and OOC towards this conflict, I even had @Kaestrin doing what I would expect and monitoring a Spirean in Duiran, he was agressive at first and I thanked him for fulfilling his role ICly, Aarbrok is hardly a threat to Duiran but it is good to see the Council on its toes.

Overall this could be a good plot twist change point for the Council as a whole, I am excited to see how this plays out, even if I am no longer a direct part of it, but Cabal brain wants to monitor it and make sure the Council doesnt get in over their head and do something drastic...you know, taking notes.

Xavin

Moirean said:

Why do you have to go off and fix the room, though? Why not focus stuff on making the exterminators hurt instead, versus fixing stuff? You shift things from a reactionary, passive role into an assertive, active role, which I would think is much more engaging.

Because the people doing it refuse to engage. That's the whole problem. We've got a group of people who are doing something that presumably is being done to generate conflict and when that conflict comes they hightail it to safety and derp around a city, haven, or simply qq for a bit.

Moirean

But now that you guys have the staves, you're getting that engagement. You guys are able to go bring the fight to them and Bloodloch is happy to respond because, hi, they're Bloodloch.

Xavin

I guess my issue with that, though is the scale of it. Ultimately, what do we accomplish by using the staves? Look at the long-run. Or at least beyond the immediate five minutes.

I'm not saying this to complain. I'm glad they gave us -something-. I'm just saying that a 60 minute environment change that wipes plants and doesn't really do much else isn't accomplishing much.

Aarbrok

How do you know it does not do that much aside from what you are seeing mechanically. From an IG perspective and current RP I have had in Duiran, you may be doing far more than you consider you are with those staves.

I need that kermit drinking tea picture...

(but thats none of my business)

Xavin

Okay. I'll take that under advisement. I'm trying to calm down about the whole thing, really. I'm just super freakin' frustrated right now.

Aarbrok

*pat pat* I know the feels man.
It can be frustrating, and im horrible at giving good advice.

Sometimes you just gotta hang on for the ride, even if it is kinda crazy.
Pkers gon be Pkers, RPers gon be RPers.

Seir

I don't really care one way or another provided people aren't playing with an intent to make the game miserable for others. Conversations that I've heard on both sides bug me personally because they speak of a mentality where people are finding an OOC satisfaction in making the game unsatisfying for others and I'm a firm believer in "name-and-shame" but I'd get my hand slapped for it. Point is, conflict is fine but I'm losing confidence in the fact that people want conflict for the fun that it can bring rather than they want another avenue to make people on the other side miserable because they've allowed IC prejudices to bleed OOCly. There's really no excuse for it. Ever.

So, back on point, I do believe that Aetolia's playerbase can be mature and engage in conflict, but if both sides keep demonstrating an inability to show restraint, we're likely not going to see a return of a war system and other more in-depth forms of conflict. Yeah, people will always complain, but it's really gotten to a point where it's more than that and some members of our playerbase are devolving to a point where it's getting really reprehensible. I enjoy conflict as much as the next person, but I understand restraint as I enjoy having an opponent on the other side that finds equal enjoyment in friendly competition. When people drag the names of other players through the mud (something that folks in spirit are guilty of on Front Line) and when they talk about how they enjoy and get their kicks from making the "other side" miserable (something that shadow is guilty of in webs), it's quite honestly depressing and begs the question why anyone would want to participate in conflict if this is what they're going to expect?

Edit: And this is completely discounting any discussions of game balance or what have you. I'm really calling into question the motives and behaviors behind certain players nowadays when it comes to conflict. Back then, it was really a small handful of folks that were PK'ing for the sake of griefing, but now it really has gotten bad and I don't really know where the Aetolian "e-honor" went. I know a lot of players on both sides have it, but I see a lot of people that used to PK no longer really participating it for a variety of reasons, one of which is that players can't show restraint and are doing anything for a win.

Rashar

Trolls gon be trolls.

Seir

Rashar said:

Trolls gon be trolls.

Precisely my point. People complain about a lack of conflict and I get that they're frustrated about it. As an example, I was really frustrated when Estarra in Lusternia made supermobs in organization-based planes near unkillable or extremely improbable to kill. In that frustration, I lashed out by raiding organizations on a consistent, near-always basis and former Lusternians such as Serrice can vouch for how destructive I was to players whose organizations that my character was opposed to. I made the game unbearable, unenjoyable, and unsatisfying because they had to deal with my raids. It was only when I came to Aetolia that I actually calmed down and realized the impact that my actions had on those players. True fact, I actually went back to Lusternia and apologized to many of the players whose game experience I negatively impacted through my actions. Now, I'm seeing the same mentality that I used to have. Ultimately, my point is that I know people want avenues of conflict and that conflict is a large part of the game, but by being frustrated, allowing IC prejudices to bleed into OOC hatred and animosity, or wanting a win so much that we, as a player, don't allow our characters to face the consequences of their actions, we're pretty much stifling conflict.

Edit: Which is why I really do believe that an avenue of conflict between nature and the Earthen can be created that does not involve a tedious mechanic such as rejuvenation or the outrageous consequence of multiple bounties that go unanswered because people want to do anything for that win while avoiding the consequences of their actions by running away all the time. You can create an area that changes based on who wins an event. Participation is optional, conflict is encouraged, and you can provide a tangible incentive that doesn't imbalance PvP but offers a quality of life bonus to those who do participate and for their organizations.

Ishin

I'm not sure what webs you're in, @Seir, but I very, very rarely hear that kind of stuff.

Seir

@Ishin: It's not all the time, but I can tell you that when conflict is happening during or after (such as a lesser), there is a lot of negativity spewed on both sides.

I can vouch that both sides are very chill and relaxed outside of conflict and I'm happy to say that I like players on both sides, but conflict tends to rear a very ugly side out of some of them when people win/lose. I really, REALLY want to name folks, but it'd be petty and I'd get in trouble. I heard some choice stuff last night which is the entire reason I came back to this thread.

Moirean

Ok, now I'm just confused...

You become very still as you stretch out your arms, feeling out the living essence hidden in the nearby plant life. Satisfied, you bring your arms back together and grind the ash between your hands, sprinkling it about the ground.

Finally being in tune with the life essence of the surrounding area, you let loose your dark power in a rush. It quickly consumes the plant life and returns the energy to you.

Plant Herb Amt State
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A myrrh bush Myrrh 0/50 Mature
A wild ginger plant Ginger 0/50 Mature
A ginseng plant Ginseng 0/50 Mature
A red elm tree Elm 0/50 Mature
A purple echinacea Echinacea 0/50 Mature
A lobelia wildflower Lobelia 0/50 Mature
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You reach out and carefully harvest a stack of 50 myrrh balls, a stack of 50 ginger roots, a stack of 50 ginseng roots, a stack of 50 slippery elms, a stack of 50 echinacea roots and a stack of 50 lobelia seeds.

You say, "Apparently I am not very good at this."

Daskalos

Welp, we can all move on. Moirean broke extermination and now it has no mechanical side effect either.

Omei

Thanks Moirean!