Exterminations

Jensen

Moving to here before I derail the rage thread any more.

New extermination system ideas:

Have Duiran rangers call off on CT if an exterminator is hitting an area.  Ranger has to be alive to issue the call (may wish to remove the log of the ranger death so things can still be done in secret)

Have a willpower draining def that detects globally for exterminations and procures a line.  Have that line also tell you the room if you happen to be in the area at the time.

Slow down extermination time to that of splicing wormholes so you cannot clear a whole forest before anyone can react.

Have Shamans/Sents have an ability similar to LEYLINES that will tell you how many exterminated rooms are in an area. (must be in area, will not tell global numbers)

Those should make patrols be less tedious, give you a fair shot at detecting when they're occurring, and still allow enemies to have a chance to accomplish what their goal was.  

Calipso

I actually would like if some form of 'destruction' mechanic was presented to each Org. Currently it seems Enorian has the beautiful Firestorm ability that I would give a limb to have as an artifact, while the other orgs generally dont. Extermination is forest only, but I would like to see it extended somehow.

I could definitely see Duiran with a "Return to Nature" ability that 'destroys' urban, village, path, etc. rooms.

Exterminate could be changed to also affect normal rooms.

Moirean

We've had this discussion already, years ago. The consensus back then seemed to be that it would be better to give orgs better ways to do low-level clashes, instead of expanding out a mechanic that wasn't popular.

Jensen

Making the mechanic managable for both sides seems to be a better than removing it, or worse leaving it alone

Irruel

@jensen
We all agreed on that back then as well - but no one was able to suggest a manageable version of the mechanic.

Your idea isn't so bad at first glance, though there would need to be retaliation versions - and it can't be something like fires in cities. Attacking a city requires dealing with guards, while attacking a forest does not.

When you start down the road of creating ways to attack cities beyond our current shitty raid system, it gets quite complex. And ultimately - what gets suggested is closer to a war system.


I'm all for ways to allow a civ vs wilds conflict, but extermination isn't it, and to be honest, the game has moved on from anti-civ, probably irrevocably, because Duiran has a life based alignment.

Jensen

I would love fires in cities

Irruel

Me too, but they wouldn't work as a response to exterminations.

Jensen

Too drunk. Make point later

Toz

Supposedly, the ancient Persians debated ideas sober and drunk, to make sure it made sense both ways, @Jensen. Maybe you're just channeling some ancient Persian guy.

Jensen

If we're still going to talk about it, want to move it over here and stop derailing short questions?

Ishin

I'm down for some stuff like this. I think each city needs a way to conflict with each other the other 3 cities. It hurts my heart that Duiran's anti-civ shit is gone, because like...that would have given them reason to part ways with Enorian now and again, you know? As it is now they just kinda hold hands'n shit.

Solaria

I like this. Plus, add in something like the infamy system from Achaea to handle the PK element of it. While I hate Achaea, that system is very handy for opening PK without having to use constant bounties. I know @Toz gave an option in the other thread, and it's a good starting point. All things can be tweaked to work out better than initial concept, but trying to brainstorm better ways to handle things is not a bad thing at all.

As a separate note, maybe something could be added mechanically where there could be something besides naturalism to cure exterminations. Maybe the Rangers can heal it over time, or give Benadanti staffs some sort of ability to cure it without use of comms. Or a combo of both. If the staff could cure it, you could basically shove the staff into the ground and it would pulse with Dendara energies and cleanse the destruction. It would take bal/eq like any normal attack and maybe use mana. And if you want to channel it to nearby..like..3 rooms or something, it'd take even longer.

Jensen

I thought they gave the ability to Sentinels with their reboot?

Solaria

Jensen said:

I thought they gave the ability to Sentinels with their reboot?

If they did, then no one is using it. Seen even sents notating need of elemental ice in Duiran, so maybe that was something that got scrapped?

Jensen

You possess the following abilities in Woodlore:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hide Conceal yourself in the shadows.
Signal Call across an area to your kin with the voice of the wild.
Climbing Clamber up into the trees with ease.
Hardiness Your time in the wilds has hardened both spirit and body.
Barkskin Make your skin tough like bark.
Coagulation Use your knowledge of healing to reduce bleeding.
Conceal Naught but a wisp of shadow from the wood.
Wildmark Leave your mark in the depths of the wild.
Foreststriding Walk the woodland with the stride of the rangers.
Refresh Rouse your wearied body with a surge of strength.
Tent Protect yourself from the elements.
Campfire Build a campfire to soothe the body and soul.
Fitness Controlling your breathing.
Thornspray Attack your enemies with a flurry of flying thorns.
Lifesap Leech from the spilled blood of others.
Instinct The forest is your domain; the land your ally.
Track Order a loyal companion to track down your prey.
Rejuvenate Return life to blighted land.
Vitality An adrenaline rush to heal your body.
Campsite Expand your hunting ground into a fortified campsite.
Camouflage Hide your companions from the watchful gaze of others.

Solaria

-redacted and edited- Didn't know it used ice from the AB. The description just says it uses a chant, doesn't mention ice. So, removing this bit. I'm just stating there should be an alternative that doesn't require ice. RP-wise, Duiran is going to keep trying to heal with ice. Might be good for them to still RP the healing, but not cost so much.

Aishia

I'm not sure what you guys are even talking about, they're using it nonstop.

Moirean

Sents now have rejuvenate in woodlore. Pretty sure it still costs ice.

I don't really understand the hate towards those exterminating. Exterminating does NOTHING anymore, except opens the door to conflict. Forestals literally can just ignore it as there are no large detrimental effects. "The Wilds defend themselves" has always been a valid line to throw out if you don't want to actively get involved in the specific conflict, and with the active and enthusiastic admin we have these days, I think it's very possible and feasible to even get some fun things going to reinforce that (eg, roaming treant in the ithmia that smashes anyone who's exterminated in the past Aet year, roots that lash out at anyone exterminating, even just a group drum circle to help wake up the wilds or whatev).

Again, forests naturally fix themselves at new year. Nobody needs to do anything. Herbs aren't rare. Forest terrain isn't needed for combat. There is NO REASON people need to be knocking themselves out to fix all these rooms - yes, absolutely show some sort of response to it, but emoting something about uttering an incantation and planting some seeds that will bloom at the new years works just as well as wasting all your ice and time. The mechanics in place already show that the wilds take care of themselves. When I was a Sent, I'd always be like, "...and the big deal is...?" whenever people talked about extermination. I'd let the room fix on its own and I'd get some PK if I was bored. I always found it to be coddling the wilds to go around rejuvenating.

Ishin

@Moirean - I think the biggest issue is that extermination has no cost, where-as the counter to extermination DOES have a cost.

I myself have to admit that I'm more in favor of giving each city an extermination-like ability that's more suited to that city, so that each has an agenda they can push in that manner. If that makes sense.

Ezalor

Extermination costs ash. Which is worth about the same as ice I believe.

Xavin

@Moirean the problem is that you're suggesting that we ignore the roleplay of the forestal organization. This is an instance where the mechanics and the roleplay are paired at the hip. A room gets exterminated, it's our job to fix it. The wilds tending to themselves has a caveat in that they defend themselves from more natural things, we don't need to go about fixing things that happen from natural causes. However, we are supposed to be dousing forest fires and rejuvenating areas that are exterminated unnaturally.

Regarding the cost, it's my understanding that Extermination only takes a single elemental ash? Versus elemental ice to 1. determine who exterminated and 2. fix the extermination.

As to the effect of the extermination, plants only come back from adjacent rooms. So if a whole area is exterminated, we have to replant at least one of the rooms. If a whole swath of land is ringed in by an odd terrain type, then there won't be any way for plants to grow in.

Jensen

The luminary one takes like 5 ash

Jensen

Teani

I think the general frustration is that while there are plenty of trolls out there who think it's fun to run around and exterminate just for the heck of it, the forestal community has a duty (RP-wise) to act, which means that leaving things be and letting nature recover on its own is out of the question. Protecting nature is Duiran's niche, just like Enorian has its zeal when it comes to life, Spinesreach has the research and Bloodloch has the blood. It's not right to ask anyone from those communities to just break their RP because someone decides to be a unicorn. It's natural for the players to express frustration when it becomes excessive though.

Also, there's a huge difference in trying to deal with the trolling kind of extermination and someone who RPs out their frustration over something with the forests or the forestal community by using said skill. The former kind I'd say deserves every bounty placed on them simply because they're probably not really interested in an RP solution, while the latter shows they might be approachable for some kind of RP conflict.

It's pretty simple to move from being seen as a troll to someone with a reasonable motive. Just make sure to start spewing some stuff in tells to people on the other side (something that might explain reasons and whatnot) and try to get some interaction instead of simple bounty collection. From the other end, if the exterminator doesn't respond to attempts to get such a meeting organized, it's more than likely to be a troll, so bounty away. No?

Just my 2 cents, I guess.

Seir

The solution is add a means of mechanical retaliation for Duiran. Unfortunately, Bloodloch and Spinesreach lack something as tangible as forest defense and such that could be used for a mechanic. We don't want Oakstone (and subsequently forest enemying) and I think everyone is in agreement in that regard, but it'd be nice to have some means of retaliation somewhere. It's too easy to just exterminate everywhere with zero consequence.

Edit: And before anyone says the bounty system... Eh, I don't really think it applies well to this. Not to mention, I'm still iffy about one bounty for every 2 exterminated rooms. Means we get to kill someone 25 times if they exterminate an entire forest or something along those lines.

Aarbrok

On a lesser scale we could place in something like an infamy system, Achaea used it for things like thievery, being in enemy cities, non bounty/assassin PK, you slowly build up infamy levels for certain things, if you become infamous you are open PK...

Extermination seems like it would suitably be useful for gaining infamy...

Seir

Conversely, we can expand upon the conflict dynamic between nature and Ivoln. I'd suggest an area that expands upon the underground forest in Azdun. One side is trying to preserve the nature and the forest down there and the other side, loyal to Ivoln, are trying to eradicate it for the pure earth. It could be something like Ciem, but I'd say that it is held on a regularly timed basis (like every Sunday, or every month, I don't know). The goal would be for each side to hold capture points in the area, kind of like king of the hill. After reaching a certain amount of capture points, one side is victorious and the area changes until the next match. If the Earthen win, the expanded part of the underground forest is "exterminated" and full of pure earth. If the forestals win, then the forest area surges or remains the way it is. The winners can get some kind of tangible benefit. Obviously, Extermination as a skill would be removed but the conflict still exists in some form and we have another conflict mechanic outside of ylem.

Solaria

Seir said:

I'd suggest an area that expands upon the underground forest in Azdun.

Only bad thing is..well..that doesn't exist anymore, does it? With Siha Dylis in place, I don't see any forest.

Jensen

You could do it to Ilhavon and give that area a purpose

Seir

Oh right. I haven't been in Azdun in... well, forever. No reason to go down there on either character.

Moirean

It's not breaking RP to roleplay out a solution to exterminations (versus just rejuvenating) or to cite the forests themselves as fixing it. The nice thing about roleplay is that it's very flexible and versatile, and I really don't understand why you guys are dismissing all of the suggestions I'm giving. It does not make you a bad forestal to RP out a solution versus just throwing comms and time at the problem - in my eyes, it makes you a creative and clever one.

Has the forestal role changed so much that now it's all about protecting and coddling nature? Haern used to preach that the wilds were stronger than us and that it was arrogant to assume we could protect them - not only was that sort of outlook very fierce and feral, it absolved forestals of the heavy responsibility of ensuring every forest room everywhere was safe. While Duiran is a city focused on the wilds, it's not your job to protect every single patch of forest. That's tiring and not fun and if that's the vision being pushed, I think admin need to step in and help clarify that to steer you guys away from burnout.