Best Of

Shadow web after all, is a popular OOC hangout for newbies and new players and the shadow community at large, who are affected by the attitudes put forth.

This is primarily what my 'agree' was in regards to. Spirit side doesn't necessarily have this problem as we don't constantly have a web going at all hours of the day, and I can think of only a handful of times where stuff has gotten semi-heated on Front Line (our OOC combat clan), but never to the extent of some of the logs of Shadow web that have been shared with me. Though, let me be clear, that wasn't any of the Carnifex in those logs. Some of the worst offenders were members of the Dominion, Spinesreach, and Teradrim. Unless I'm being directly pasted logs, I'm not privy to what goes on in Shadow web or clans (despite what @Araseth thinks), but this thread is a good exercise in taking a look at my own tether's orgs to make sure instances of this alleged bullying with power isn't happening. Ascendril may be low on the totem pole, and I've had at least one person ICly bring up concerns that Templar made up most of Enorian's Heralds (which has been 2/5 for the last 8 months I've been a Council Member) and I assuaged this person's concerns by reminding them that while the Illuminai don't have a seat on the Council, they are fully represented in the city and a fair amount of their members hold Ministry positions. I then asked this person if there were specific instances they could think of where the Templar didn't have the Illuminai's interests at heart, and they couldn't think of any; just that because the Illuminai don't have a 'voice' by not having a Herald seat meant that this issue COULD arise. But it hasn't. I can't really speak to Duiran, but it seems like the Sentinels are where the biggest bulk of people resides; even with the recent mass-exodus of members to the Shaman. All in all, I think we really try to nip this behavior in the bud on Spirit side; but I'm also not so naive to believe that disparaging comments towards guilds, orgs or people don't occur on Spirit side. We just tend to keep our seething hatred of other individuals isolated to private webs, clans and discord servers, so it may not seem as prevalent when compared side by side to Shadow comms.

Also, uh, I don't think Rebra, anywhere, said this was being compared to sexual assault. Like, she didn't even use the word 'sexual'. She just said trauma, abuse, harassed; which, yes, COULD have sexual assault under that umbrella but that's not at all what I inferred from her statement. I took what she said as:

People who feel wronged or like they're the victim of some type of trauma - no matter how real or imagined it is - may have a difficult time broaching that in a public forum or calling attention to it, because they're treated a particular way until they come up with receipts of the alleged behavior.

Which is fine, I think, to expect proof of wrongdoing. I suppose I'm inclined to think there might be a little bit of truth in this huge post that Fyrren made, mainly because the playerbase can be real crappy sometimes - myself included. ESPECIALLY myself sometimes, like I can be just awful and it won't be until long after something's happened that I go "ah yeah, I suck". And I think maybe a forum post, however good the intentions were to shed light on a perceived problem, was probably the wrong way to go about this. I can't speak for @Mjoll, but I know if someone hopped into my DM's and talked to me one-on-one about a problem they had with the Templar or Enorian, I'd appreciate that more than waking up to a massive forum thread explaining why my org is bad and how I or my fellows allegedly made someone feel bad.

However, my closing statement is that I don't think any of the Carnifex players go out of their way (intentionally or unintentionally) to make other PLAYERS miserable. And if you (general 'you') feel like they are, then that's something best discussed with them personally rather than a public forum post that puts the entire guild on blast, even with the disclaimer that it's 'not all of them'.

I want to preface by noting that I do not believe that every member of the Carnifex goes out of their way in an OOC fashion to cause anyone grief or to bully anyone. I doubt many people do, in any setting. We each like to think of ourselves as just, fair people in a just, fair world, and it can be easy to believe, in a group or community setting where everyone we're friendly with seems to agree with one another, that we are right, and any mention of a different experience must be false, or must be the fault of that person's own actions. They just aren't approaching things right; they must try harder; they're not doing enough.

There are people in this thread who assert that a victim must provide specific proof of their distress and their experience of abuse in a public setting for all to see, or they must by default not be believed. I can think of real life situations where such proof is also demanded of victims, and as a physician and mental health provider in real life, I have seen the fallout of such an attitude for those who have had the courage to come out with any account at all of their distress, and their experience is repeatedly invalidated by default.

Certainly, allegations should be based in fact. But it is important to acknowledge that it can take someone who is truly harassed or abused an immense amount of courage and willpower to provide such details of their trauma, especially for a skeptical audience who have already presdisposed themselves to not believe them, especially for an audience that consists partly of the accused themselves, and who hold a relatively greater degree of power, both in game and out, if only for the fact of having greater numbers, among other factors. The process can be re-traumatizing, embedding and worsening the trauma further. The playing field, in that case, is not neutral, but is stacked against the speaker from the start.

It may be a mistake for me to be open and honest with my own, OOC experience of the community in Aetolia in this setting, because I am aware the deck is stacked against me, and I am aware that my voice, and the OP's, will be drops in the sea of others who already think differently: Perhaps barraged by a sea of disagrees and lol's, perhaps marked as off-topic - I hope not, and I hope I can have faith that people are still willing to hear the voices of people who might have a different experience from them, and appreciate the courage that went into saying anything at all. I am aware that what I say has a likelihood of forever colouring what other players or even admin OOCly think of me as a person, and perhaps, ICly my character as a character, going forward. But I feel that I must share my experience, so the OP's account is not again discounted as a single instance, to be brushed off, as other voices have been brushed off before.

As people already know now who have read the townhall logs for Ictinus, I stopped engaging deeply in Aetolia about a year ago, due to my observation of certain destructive behaviours in Aetolia's player community, particularly on the shadow side. This was based partly in OOC observation, over the course of two years, of comments in shadow web that openly disparaged members of the Dominion and Teradrim guilds, or the Dominion and Teradrim guilds in general, and raised the Carnifex guild above all others in Bloodloch. There were comments including, and I quote, "Vampires bad, carnifex good." and "F*** teradrim guild." and someone who said of the Carnifex, "...isn't it the only guild in Bloodloch?" and that "Dominion isn't a guild, never has been...I refuse to see it as a guild. And...I thought the Teradrim was just a place holder because I didn't know there were people still in the guild...?" These are just drops of OOC comments in a sea of them that I bore witness to over months and years.

I recognise that not every member of the Carnifex has participated in such behaviour, and not every comment made on shadow web was made by a member of the Carnifex. It can be emotionally difficult to see a post such as the OP's, and feel like you're unfairly implicated in something that you do not feel you have personally done; it can be easy to be defensive in such a setting, and to jump in in defense of yourself and your guild, and to question the person providing allegations whether they were at fault. And yet, like it or not, Carnifex as a whole has likely benefited from such attitudes and such talk as I have given examples of, and the Dominion and Teradrim likely have been negatively affected by such talk, regardless of individual intentions. Shadow web after all, is a popular OOC hangout for newbies and new players and the shadow community at large, who are affected by the attitudes put forth.

The Carnifex, by assertions of certain posters in this thread, is in a position of privilege by numbers and by popularity as it is. Attributions are made of such success to a culture that enables its members rather than stifles, and I do not doubt that is part of it; Mjoll, and all those who have helped her build the guild, have put a tremendous amount of work into making the guild as rich and unique as it is. I have personally witnessed Mjoll and some others of the Carnifex spend quite a lot of time with newbies to help them integrate into Bloodloch and Carnifex and particularly the PVP culture of shadow side. I do not doubt assertions by multiple posters in this thread that they have had wonderful experiences in their contact with the Carnifex. These are likely true, for I too have had great experiences with members of the Carnifex.

That positive, enriching experiences exist and have been provided by the Carnifex and members of the Carnifex does not discount that harm may have been done by some. And again, Carnifex being in a position of privilege means that it may be helpful regardless, given the power and privilege that they enjoy, for its members to look outside the echo chamber of contentment they exist in to see what experience others may be having, and how they might use their power for the better. I am an example of a person who has essentially stopped playing the game because I could no longer log on to such an atmosphere as existed on shadow tether at the time, such that I recused myself. My character has a childe who left Bloodloch and shadow side altogether because of the player culture. My character has a sire who just retired, likely for the same reason. So yes, I agree Carnifex likely has support and numbers and popularity because people within it enjoy being in it and the benefits it provides. But the numbers divide may also have contributions, however small, from people in other guilds leaving because they were -not- having a good time in the current culture engendered in Bloodloch, and they did not wish to join the Carnifex to find a good time because maybe in some small part, some of the attitudes and behaviours of Carnifex members were part of that.

None of us are perfect people. And I imagine there can be fingers pointed at me for things I or my character has done. I own that I have not acted in ways I wish I could have at times, and I have wrestled with trying to work in a way to make people's experiences better, not worse - and I know I have not always succeeded. And, I am writing this to implore that maybe, insteading jumping immediately to defense, some of the participants of this thread can also take some time to think and acknowledge ways that they, in their privileged position, could work to make someone else's playing experience better as well. I hope the player culture has changed since my own breaking point some time ago; please, show that it has.

Edit:
Because this has been brought up so many times by people, I would like to reaffirm, based on professional experience and knowledge, that trauma is trauma. While sexual trauma and physical violence are devastating and make up what people think of when trauma is mentioned, they do not make up all of what trauma can be, or the emotional and physiological experiences of trauma that remain for those who have experienced it. While sexually and physically violent trauma have the added burdens of immediate dangers to life and body, verbal and emotional trauma, interpersonal and spiritual trauma can also trigger the same base bodily responses, beyond words, that a sexual assault or physical violence can cause. These are responses that can last for years, and can be greatly debilitating to mental health and sometimes, unfortunately, also be a risk to life. This applies as well in the case of situations where people feel they have been the subject of bullying or mobbing. While I recognise and appreciate the need of people to particularly honour and believe the horrific, life-threatening experiences of sexual trauma victims, that is not all there is. To deny the physiological responses of trauma in situations where that trauma is triggered or the experience is invalidated, whatever the origin, is to do a disservice to all of those, present in this community and beyond, who continue to struggle with their trauma on a day to day basis, and which also cause significant functional impairment and pain in people's lives.

So please, I ask that we do have a conversation about my points, but do not invalidate the experiences of people who truly have experienced trauma, whatever the origin.

It seems as though the Teradrim believe these are their events alone - an impression I've formed based on their apparent reluctance to tell anyone anything, let alone invite outside participation - and I think they're mistaken in this belief. Last night's disturbances were causing damage and lengthy stuns to numerous people at odd intervals, which meant we couldn't just get on with our business until we were relatively certain it wasn't going to continue. Furthermore, from an RP standpoint, all Undead should be concerned by issues with Earth, and all people in Sapience (who aren't openly defying Varian?) should be concerned about related Albedi threats. We push and push and push because we get nothing otherwise. The Teradrim guild has been like this for a long time, so while it may feel unfair to you as only recently the leader, you're experiencing the fruits of seeds long since sown.

For real, I don't want you or anyone else to feel bullied. However, I don't accept that's what's actually happening here. You (as in the Teradrim in general) need to look at your behaviors and recognize that other characters are going to respond negatively to being shoved out constantly.

I want to highlight this as talking about what I said earlier about a culture of enabling. This is an example of not enabling players. The Teradrim were the gateway into this most recent event. What this means is on an OOC level there is a responsibility as Terradrim players to do their part to make this happen and give people things to do. Put on your RP pants and start making shit up if you have to that gives people something to do if you don't know what needs to happen yet, IC. But going silent and not divulging what is happening perpetuates the insular situation that has been cultivated by the Terradrim for a very long time.

It's the insular culture that people are upset with and Fyrren is now in a position where they either have to create the culture shift that sheds the guild in a better light or bear the brunt of frustration that has been brewing for generations of GMs in the Terradrim. It may not feel fair to be new to the position and have to deal with it, but at the same time when the behavior exhibited perpetuates an insular attitude nothing is going to change.

I can't stress enough the importance of being self aware as a GM, not only of yourself but of how your guild is coming across. If you don't have a finger on that pulse you're going to have a bad time and probably think you're being bullied.