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Griefing and bullying. It's not okay OOC but it is okay IC? (Wall of text warning)
Lately I have not been playing as much as I would like to, mostly due to real life health reasons as I have been going through many dental issues and am currently waiting for surgery to remove an impacted wisdom tooth that is growing into my jaw and against a nerve, inducing 24/7 headaches.
What little time I do have for playing has gone into basic leadership responsibilities and dealing with a large amount of griefing and bullying.
It is widely known that the Carnifex guild are a group of thug-like, brutal badasses who chew bubblegum or kick ass and they are always out of bubblegum. Unfortunately, what this guild has cultivated in my view is a mob-mentality within the game and it has had a negative impact on many other characters/players as a consequence.
People often talk about being able to separate OOC emotions from IC emotions but over the two decades that this game has been around, it should be obvious by now that some players are capable of this very well and play some very unique characters without missing a beat and strive to prevent any sort of OOC bias to dictate the actions of their characters and kudos to you hardcore roleplayers for it, you have got some mad skills and not just anyone can do that level of immersive roleplay.
However, there are also many players who are not able to do this nearly as well or simply are not playing the game for the same level of immersion on a daily basis. Some people just want to be able to pursue their interests in the game, be it crafting, lore, bashing, general chatting over webs or OOC clans, whatever. There are so many ways to play this game and that's what makes this game special in my mind.
Lately there has been a trend going on in Bloodloch due to what I and many others know as the monopoly the Carnifex hold in sheer numbers and mob-mentality and it has quite frankly turned into what I can only describe as a culture that deals with others through sheer bullying and griefing, be them ally or enemy, it doesn't matter to them.
What has this done? It has caused an extremely hostile environment to play in. Sure, Bloodloch is supposed to be this brutal city of undeath, but all I have experienced from the Carnifex is a selfish, divisive, and entitled method of dealing with anything. They are intrusive, demand much without offering anything substantial in return, will try to manipulate other guilds through any means necessary such as herd mentality voting in order to stunt their sister guilds' voices or to try to manipulate leaderships of smaller guilds through telling them what is good for them, which essentially means "do what we say or you will regret it". A mentality that is more often linked with criminal organizations than with civilians.
It is my view that a city is supposed to be made up by a majority of members from the three guilds that call it home, which means that those guilds should be working together towards a common goal and respecting the authority and autonomy of each other over their given charge. Teradrim - Pillars of the Earth/Undeath. Dominion - The Blood. Carnifex - The Master Soulstone.
What has happened instead is the Carnifex essentially bullying the leadership and members of the Teradrim and Dominion in order to achieve their own goals with zero regard for what the characters of these two guilds are trying to achieve themselves within the confines of their own guilds and with their roles in the city of Bloodloch. The Carnifex players may be enjoying this as a form of 'immersive roleplay' but it is at the cost of 'immersive roleplay' for others. Instead of being able to deal with the Teradrim/Ivoln/Undeath themed roleplay that I would rather be doing, I have to deal with the real life stress that is induced from a barrage of bullying, insults, accusations, threats, demands, and so forth FROM AN ALLIED GUILD.
Why do things have to be this way? Can someone truly justify the idea that any form of bullying/griefing in an Out Of Character context is not okay but then play a character who partakes in bullying/griefing in an In Character context?
This is all written from my own point of view and I have voiced it here rather than in game due to the fact that I experience a straight up sensation of real life fear for the fate of my character should I voice anything in character at this point in time. I have invested money and much time, as any other long time player has and I don't want to see this all gone to waste because I have an opinion about things that do not go with the current status quo but sadly that is the state of mind I have been brought to. It is even to the point that I write this post knowing that I will likely suffer further consequences for speaking up on these issues, be it through OOC backlash on the forums or Shadow Web or the meta bias that will likely make me the target of further griefing and bullying IC. But at this point, I rather speak up than lurk and just watch this happen.
There are many players in this game who will justify their behavior as it being a part of their character and 'immersive roleplay' but where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line between being an evil undead dude and straight up griefing people? I speak with players on a daily basis who have crossed 'the mob' and thus suffer greatly for what in my mind are trivial mistakes or simply real life circumstances that have forced a player to take certain actions In Character such as avoiding certain positions or stepping down from positions, etc. Should they continue to suffer for this? Are their own experiences and suffering inconsequential and thus should be allowed to be treated as lepers and pariahs indefinitely?
I have played a Teradrim for a long time and have had my ups and downs but any player who knows me IC or OOC well enough knows that I play this game ONLY for the Teradrim/Ivoln/Undead lore and related. I have my faults as any other player has but I do try to at least provide as welcoming an environment as I can in a game format that is not going to be seeing a renaissance any time soon. I try to breed collaboration rather than division. Community building rather than fracturing. But trying to do this while being a target of what I perceive as a clandestinely organized smear campaign has brought me to a dismal mindset.
Due to the current situation I have explained, I will be cancelling my subscription to the game and ceasing any spending in it as I cannot justify paying for something that allows for an environment with this level of bullying and griefing. If things change, I will likely continue my subscription once more.
Also, I do not mean this as an attack on any one individual but rather a vocalization of what I have been experiencing lately. I am very well aware that I am going to be likely experiencing a lot worse after this post.
----
But as I like to end any post like this with a bit of brightness rather than just a straight up rant, I will like to give thanks to every player who has made this game worth sticking around for as long as I have since my return.
Everyone in TCC, you give me the strength to weather through everything, whether it is IC drama or real life struggles and I truly feel I have grown to be a better person since getting to know many of you better and experiencing what it is like to have a great online community to be a part of. I love you all.
To the Teradrim guild members, you are the reason I play this game, let alone Fyrren, and no matter how tough things get for me in game or in real life, you always have my back and keep me anchored and help me get through things. I could not ask for a better in-game community to be a part of and it is always a pleasure when we get to explore our extremely niche style of roleplay and lore. I give an extra big shoutout to @Zenobia , @Amarita , @Macavity , and @Malcanthet because you are my Aetolia-family and you rock my world. (Teradrim puns are mandatory.)
To the admins and developers and volunteers, thank you for your endless dedication to keeping this game going and no matter how bad things get in the short term, you all seem to find a way to fix things and make things once more enjoyable for so many people. Keep on being awesome!
What little time I do have for playing has gone into basic leadership responsibilities and dealing with a large amount of griefing and bullying.
It is widely known that the Carnifex guild are a group of thug-like, brutal badasses who chew bubblegum or kick ass and they are always out of bubblegum. Unfortunately, what this guild has cultivated in my view is a mob-mentality within the game and it has had a negative impact on many other characters/players as a consequence.
People often talk about being able to separate OOC emotions from IC emotions but over the two decades that this game has been around, it should be obvious by now that some players are capable of this very well and play some very unique characters without missing a beat and strive to prevent any sort of OOC bias to dictate the actions of their characters and kudos to you hardcore roleplayers for it, you have got some mad skills and not just anyone can do that level of immersive roleplay.
However, there are also many players who are not able to do this nearly as well or simply are not playing the game for the same level of immersion on a daily basis. Some people just want to be able to pursue their interests in the game, be it crafting, lore, bashing, general chatting over webs or OOC clans, whatever. There are so many ways to play this game and that's what makes this game special in my mind.
Lately there has been a trend going on in Bloodloch due to what I and many others know as the monopoly the Carnifex hold in sheer numbers and mob-mentality and it has quite frankly turned into what I can only describe as a culture that deals with others through sheer bullying and griefing, be them ally or enemy, it doesn't matter to them.
What has this done? It has caused an extremely hostile environment to play in. Sure, Bloodloch is supposed to be this brutal city of undeath, but all I have experienced from the Carnifex is a selfish, divisive, and entitled method of dealing with anything. They are intrusive, demand much without offering anything substantial in return, will try to manipulate other guilds through any means necessary such as herd mentality voting in order to stunt their sister guilds' voices or to try to manipulate leaderships of smaller guilds through telling them what is good for them, which essentially means "do what we say or you will regret it". A mentality that is more often linked with criminal organizations than with civilians.
It is my view that a city is supposed to be made up by a majority of members from the three guilds that call it home, which means that those guilds should be working together towards a common goal and respecting the authority and autonomy of each other over their given charge. Teradrim - Pillars of the Earth/Undeath. Dominion - The Blood. Carnifex - The Master Soulstone.
What has happened instead is the Carnifex essentially bullying the leadership and members of the Teradrim and Dominion in order to achieve their own goals with zero regard for what the characters of these two guilds are trying to achieve themselves within the confines of their own guilds and with their roles in the city of Bloodloch. The Carnifex players may be enjoying this as a form of 'immersive roleplay' but it is at the cost of 'immersive roleplay' for others. Instead of being able to deal with the Teradrim/Ivoln/Undeath themed roleplay that I would rather be doing, I have to deal with the real life stress that is induced from a barrage of bullying, insults, accusations, threats, demands, and so forth FROM AN ALLIED GUILD.
Why do things have to be this way? Can someone truly justify the idea that any form of bullying/griefing in an Out Of Character context is not okay but then play a character who partakes in bullying/griefing in an In Character context?
This is all written from my own point of view and I have voiced it here rather than in game due to the fact that I experience a straight up sensation of real life fear for the fate of my character should I voice anything in character at this point in time. I have invested money and much time, as any other long time player has and I don't want to see this all gone to waste because I have an opinion about things that do not go with the current status quo but sadly that is the state of mind I have been brought to. It is even to the point that I write this post knowing that I will likely suffer further consequences for speaking up on these issues, be it through OOC backlash on the forums or Shadow Web or the meta bias that will likely make me the target of further griefing and bullying IC. But at this point, I rather speak up than lurk and just watch this happen.
There are many players in this game who will justify their behavior as it being a part of their character and 'immersive roleplay' but where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line between being an evil undead dude and straight up griefing people? I speak with players on a daily basis who have crossed 'the mob' and thus suffer greatly for what in my mind are trivial mistakes or simply real life circumstances that have forced a player to take certain actions In Character such as avoiding certain positions or stepping down from positions, etc. Should they continue to suffer for this? Are their own experiences and suffering inconsequential and thus should be allowed to be treated as lepers and pariahs indefinitely?
I have played a Teradrim for a long time and have had my ups and downs but any player who knows me IC or OOC well enough knows that I play this game ONLY for the Teradrim/Ivoln/Undead lore and related. I have my faults as any other player has but I do try to at least provide as welcoming an environment as I can in a game format that is not going to be seeing a renaissance any time soon. I try to breed collaboration rather than division. Community building rather than fracturing. But trying to do this while being a target of what I perceive as a clandestinely organized smear campaign has brought me to a dismal mindset.
Due to the current situation I have explained, I will be cancelling my subscription to the game and ceasing any spending in it as I cannot justify paying for something that allows for an environment with this level of bullying and griefing. If things change, I will likely continue my subscription once more.
Also, I do not mean this as an attack on any one individual but rather a vocalization of what I have been experiencing lately. I am very well aware that I am going to be likely experiencing a lot worse after this post.
----
But as I like to end any post like this with a bit of brightness rather than just a straight up rant, I will like to give thanks to every player who has made this game worth sticking around for as long as I have since my return.
Everyone in TCC, you give me the strength to weather through everything, whether it is IC drama or real life struggles and I truly feel I have grown to be a better person since getting to know many of you better and experiencing what it is like to have a great online community to be a part of. I love you all.
To the Teradrim guild members, you are the reason I play this game, let alone Fyrren, and no matter how tough things get for me in game or in real life, you always have my back and keep me anchored and help me get through things. I could not ask for a better in-game community to be a part of and it is always a pleasure when we get to explore our extremely niche style of roleplay and lore. I give an extra big shoutout to @Zenobia , @Amarita , @Macavity , and @Malcanthet because you are my Aetolia-family and you rock my world. (Teradrim puns are mandatory.)
To the admins and developers and volunteers, thank you for your endless dedication to keeping this game going and no matter how bad things get in the short term, you all seem to find a way to fix things and make things once more enjoyable for so many people. Keep on being awesome!
Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
8
Comments
Calling us (the players) all griefers and bullies is pretty bullshit and uncalled for, tbqh. Incredibly uncalled for.
Also I don't really have a comment on the other two guilds since it's been a bit since I've played in either one of them. I also don't really know anyone who's super active in either of them that I interact with only a semi frequent basis anymore.
I find that in reasons of conflict there is alot to say for how and why we approach things the way we do as players, but in my experience both IC and OOC, The Carnifex are generally true to their RP and are some of the most supportive players on an OOC basis, avoiding being a clique and seeking to aid the whole.
I do not see much -world- interaction from the Teradrim, save for maybe a sermon to Ivoln being shouted, or Mileta being helpful to other players, but I don't see much from other Teradrim in a bigger picture than their Teradrim world. And this is completely a personal take and it may be broader than what I see as a player, but I have only really experienced Fyrren doing sermons, Mileta doing inter-organization OOC help and communication and then a young Teradrim named Gribbit who is embracing his role with the whole. (Current events aside, the Teradrim should have taken the lead on, but it sounds like Bamathis Order is the more worldly approach on this, especially from a Spirean standpoint. Which is great PS, cause big threats.)
I believe that if we perhaps outreach to communicate in a manner befitting, instead of OOC coming for an entire Org, that might bolster a more inclusive and healthy environment, but by presenting a post like this one, it is only driving that wedge deeper.
EDIT: I will also add, I have been in the position you are in and let my decision making OOC based on IC stuff get the best of me and cause me to burn many bridges and harm friendships, and its not good for one to do that to themselves, take a break if its effecting you like this, come back refreshed, with new perspective. There are great things happening in Aetolia currently, big strides forward, be part of the positive change and not the bad feelings that you are choosing to hold onto. I promise it will get better with perspective and time away. (2 cents)
Because I'm guessing, if this is referencing the past couple weeks of IC stuff (which has been a hoot), a lot of the "bullying" has been characters living in the world asking whether they should be concerned about existential threats that directly impact them, as well as asking for accountability. I have no idea what consequences your character is eating, if any, in game, but this really reeks of "my character had a consequence for an action and I can't take it." It also reads as a bad faith attempt to bait pretty much every Carnifex player into being an aggro jerkwad so you can go "see what I mean?" when pretty much anybody who is slapped with a massive label and unfounded accusations would be understandably angry and upset at the suggestion.
If you can't take the heat of leadership and the responsibilties that entails, you can step down. I've done it a bunch of times in game when I didn't want to keep doing the job. If you are really some person who wants to do nothing but craft and have slice of life RP, that's something you can do! In a guild, even! You just don't become a public-facing mascot for your organization that has to interact with other people and represent their org and its responsibilities. Like I'm not in a real leadership role in the Carnifex right now and as a result I could mostly just screw off and do whatever I want and almost pretend to not be a Carnifex, if I really really wanted.
This post is so nasty and runs against the very heart of what roleplay is and I'm, honestly, appalled that it was written, let alone posted. Also THIS:
One of the things that differentiates the Carnifex from everyone else is their's is a culture of enabling people as opposed to stifling them -- which for better or worse is what many people experience in the other two guilds in Bloodloch.
It's a real problem that has resulted in plenty of resentment felt on both sides while those who have felt stifled in the Terradrim and Dominion have found themselves escaping this in the Carnifex, thus making it the largest population in Bloodloch. If this is happening, I can only recommend taking a good hard look at how you are doing things in your own micro-organism and see how to resolve this population discrepancy. Focusing on the backlash you're experiencing is trying to treat the symptom and not the illness.
Edit: It also indicates, to me, that the same OOC rumours and victimhood responses are continuing to propagate in the shadows unchecked, with absolutely zero critical thought given to them.
For better or worse, I'm usually willing to give some amount of insight into my character's behavior if someone tells me they're feeling down because of it. In that spirit, my intent has mainly been to push for information and inclusion. It seems as though the Teradrim believe these are their events alone - an impression I've formed based on their apparent reluctance to tell anyone anything, let alone invite outside participation - and I think they're mistaken in this belief. Last night's disturbances were causing damage and lengthy stuns to numerous people at odd intervals, which meant we couldn't just get on with our business until we were relatively certain it wasn't going to continue. Furthermore, from an RP standpoint, all Undead should be concerned by issues with Earth, and all people in Sapience (who aren't openly defying Varian?) should be concerned about related Albedi threats. We push and push and push because we get nothing otherwise. The Teradrim guild has been like this for a long time, so while it may feel unfair to you as only recently the leader, you're experiencing the fruits of seeds long since sown.
For real, I don't want you or anyone else to feel bullied. However, I don't accept that's what's actually happening here. You (as in the Teradrim in general) need to look at your behaviors and recognize that other characters are going to respond negatively to being shoved out constantly.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
(Web): Abhorash has left your web.
Alela's Affirmations
It's really frustrating to read a comment like that after this post.
It's the insular culture that people are upset with and Fyrren is now in a position where they either have to create the culture shift that sheds the guild in a better light or bear the brunt of frustration that has been brewing for generations of GMs in the Terradrim. It may not feel fair to be new to the position and have to deal with it, but at the same time when the behavior exhibited perpetuates an insular attitude nothing is going to change.
I can't stress enough the importance of being self aware as a GM, not only of yourself but of how your guild is coming across. If you don't have a finger on that pulse you're going to have a bad time and probably think you're being bullied.
If it's there, then the Carnifex need to be accountable.
If you come up short, sorry, but you're the asshole.
I thought we did reasonably well, as Teradrim and Carnifex, for that El'Jazira ritual. I really enjoyed the fact that we could come together and present a united front by pooling the strengths of these two guilds and RP towards a purpose. As an outsider looking over the proceedings, I thought both guilds shared a fair amount of respect towards the proceedings for most part, and we got somewhere with the ritual, so I never thought it was an issue until this was raised here.
As a general stance, I myself really hate gating events or information related to events that happen because people want to know and feel involved with any development of lore. Certainly, this current event is geared towards the Teradrim and Ivoln's Order that eventually had to include the rest of the orgs, and as someone who wasn't there, I don't even know how it all went down to have prompted the creation of this post. If Almol did not even clue my character into what was shared (and subsequently Macavity helped with clarification), I would not even know the actual importance of the current actions involving the amphorae. In fact, when Elene woke up, the first thing she asked in conversation when she read the post and sought information was, "Why are the Sorcerer-Kings which were mentioned in passing individuals that we should be wary of, and why is Spinesreach involved?" The answers she got back signified a lack of enough information being passed around.
However, from an IG point of view, I think this is a pretty perfect opportunity for the Teradrim to hold and host more lectures/discussions on Azvosh Rakar, @Fyrren, and why they deem the Sorcerer-Kings a threat to Sapience (lead in to the Trial that was witnessed). I know you've been wanting to work more on expanding Earthen lore and culture, which is pretty cool, because not a lot of it is available for others outside of the Teradrim to understand. I am, however, pretty enthused to see it resonate outwards under the reigns of your leadership, which you once said will be your main focus as Imperator. I feel that by involving more than just the Teradrim in affirming Earthen lore, it will help break any perceptions of insular culture, attract more people into joining the guild for its lore, and also create a two-way street towards further development.
Stress in leadership, where you are in a position to induce changes, create RP opportunities and support game lore, is unfortunately a side thing that comes with the position. It is because it bears more than just IC responsibility, but also OOC ones to facilitate enjoyment of the game as a whole to others and not just yours. I promise that it gets better as time passes though.
Now if this is happening oocly, it really should be addressed.
My personal take is that when you take on leadership roles in the game, the onus is you to shift away from a strict, me-only, my character first, method-actor approach. The role is a job, and is one of responsibility. It's not a reward for winning an election. You have the additional burden of facilitating enjoyment for as many players as possible other than just yourself.
(To be clear - this is just my general two cents that came from what I thought were pretty insightful points made by others. My take on the situation is the same as above - post evidence, otherwise making such bare allegations is quite, imo, a hurtful and reprehensible thing to do.)
There are people in this thread who assert that a victim must provide specific proof of their distress and their experience of abuse in a public setting for all to see, or they must by default not be believed. I can think of real life situations where such proof is also demanded of victims, and as a physician and mental health provider in real life, I have seen the fallout of such an attitude for those who have had the courage to come out with any account at all of their distress, and their experience is repeatedly invalidated by default.
Certainly, allegations should be based in fact. But it is important to acknowledge that it can take someone who is truly harassed or abused an immense amount of courage and willpower to provide such details of their trauma, especially for a skeptical audience who have already presdisposed themselves to not believe them, especially for an audience that consists partly of the accused themselves, and who hold a relatively greater degree of power, both in game and out, if only for the fact of having greater numbers, among other factors. The process can be re-traumatizing, embedding and worsening the trauma further. The playing field, in that case, is not neutral, but is stacked against the speaker from the start.
It may be a mistake for me to be open and honest with my own, OOC experience of the community in Aetolia in this setting, because I am aware the deck is stacked against me, and I am aware that my voice, and the OP's, will be drops in the sea of others who already think differently: Perhaps barraged by a sea of disagrees and lol's, perhaps marked as off-topic - I hope not, and I hope I can have faith that people are still willing to hear the voices of people who might have a different experience from them, and appreciate the courage that went into saying anything at all. I am aware that what I say has a likelihood of forever colouring what other players or even admin OOCly think of me as a person, and perhaps, ICly my character as a character, going forward. But I feel that I must share my experience, so the OP's account is not again discounted as a single instance, to be brushed off, as other voices have been brushed off before.
As people already know now who have read the townhall logs for Ictinus, I stopped engaging deeply in Aetolia about a year ago, due to my observation of certain destructive behaviours in Aetolia's player community, particularly on the shadow side. This was based partly in OOC observation, over the course of two years, of comments in shadow web that openly disparaged members of the Dominion and Teradrim guilds, or the Dominion and Teradrim guilds in general, and raised the Carnifex guild above all others in Bloodloch. There were comments including, and I quote, "Vampires bad, carnifex good." and "F*** teradrim guild." and someone who said of the Carnifex, "...isn't it the only guild in Bloodloch?" and that "Dominion isn't a guild, never has been...I refuse to see it as a guild. And...I thought the Teradrim was just a place holder because I didn't know there were people still in the guild...?" These are just drops of OOC comments in a sea of them that I bore witness to over months and years.
I recognise that not every member of the Carnifex has participated in such behaviour, and not every comment made on shadow web was made by a member of the Carnifex. It can be emotionally difficult to see a post such as the OP's, and feel like you're unfairly implicated in something that you do not feel you have personally done; it can be easy to be defensive in such a setting, and to jump in in defense of yourself and your guild, and to question the person providing allegations whether they were at fault. And yet, like it or not, Carnifex as a whole has likely benefited from such attitudes and such talk as I have given examples of, and the Dominion and Teradrim likely have been negatively affected by such talk, regardless of individual intentions. Shadow web after all, is a popular OOC hangout for newbies and new players and the shadow community at large, who are affected by the attitudes put forth.
The Carnifex, by assertions of certain posters in this thread, is in a position of privilege by numbers and by popularity as it is. Attributions are made of such success to a culture that enables its members rather than stifles, and I do not doubt that is part of it; Mjoll, and all those who have helped her build the guild, have put a tremendous amount of work into making the guild as rich and unique as it is. I have personally witnessed Mjoll and some others of the Carnifex spend quite a lot of time with newbies to help them integrate into Bloodloch and Carnifex and particularly the PVP culture of shadow side. I do not doubt assertions by multiple posters in this thread that they have had wonderful experiences in their contact with the Carnifex. These are likely true, for I too have had great experiences with members of the Carnifex.
That positive, enriching experiences exist and have been provided by the Carnifex and members of the Carnifex does not discount that harm may have been done by some. And again, Carnifex being in a position of privilege means that it may be helpful regardless, given the power and privilege that they enjoy, for its members to look outside the echo chamber of contentment they exist in to see what experience others may be having, and how they might use their power for the better. I am an example of a person who has essentially stopped playing the game because I could no longer log on to such an atmosphere as existed on shadow tether at the time, such that I recused myself. My character has a childe who left Bloodloch and shadow side altogether because of the player culture. My character has a sire who just retired, likely for the same reason. So yes, I agree Carnifex likely has support and numbers and popularity because people within it enjoy being in it and the benefits it provides. But the numbers divide may also have contributions, however small, from people in other guilds leaving because they were -not- having a good time in the current culture engendered in Bloodloch, and they did not wish to join the Carnifex to find a good time because maybe in some small part, some of the attitudes and behaviours of Carnifex members were part of that.
None of us are perfect people. And I imagine there can be fingers pointed at me for things I or my character has done. I own that I have not acted in ways I wish I could have at times, and I have wrestled with trying to work in a way to make people's experiences better, not worse - and I know I have not always succeeded. And, I am writing this to implore that maybe, insteading jumping immediately to defense, some of the participants of this thread can also take some time to think and acknowledge ways that they, in their privileged position, could work to make someone else's playing experience better as well. I hope the player culture has changed since my own breaking point some time ago; please, show that it has.
Edit:
Because this has been brought up so many times by people, I would like to reaffirm, based on professional experience and knowledge, that trauma is trauma. While sexual trauma and physical violence are devastating and make up what people think of when trauma is mentioned, they do not make up all of what trauma can be, or the emotional and physiological experiences of trauma that remain for those who have experienced it. While sexually and physically violent trauma have the added burdens of immediate dangers to life and body, verbal and emotional trauma, interpersonal and spiritual trauma can also trigger the same base bodily responses, beyond words, that a sexual assault or physical violence can cause. These are responses that can last for years, and can be greatly debilitating to mental health and sometimes, unfortunately, also be a risk to life. This applies as well in the case of situations where people feel they have been the subject of bullying or mobbing. While I recognise and appreciate the need of people to particularly honour and believe the horrific, life-threatening experiences of sexual trauma victims, that is not all there is. To deny the physiological responses of trauma in situations where that trauma is triggered or the experience is invalidated, whatever the origin, is to do a disservice to all of those, present in this community and beyond, who continue to struggle with their trauma on a day to day basis, and which also cause significant functional impairment and pain in people's lives.
So please, I ask that we do have a conversation about my points, but do not invalidate the experiences of people who truly have experienced trauma, whatever the origin.
Since I've been back, everyone and everything has been roasted in shadow web, as well. The banter might not be for everyone, absolutely, but in my experience no org is really 'safe'. The Carnifex eat crayons, kick puppies, Mjoll is too stupid to lose fights. Mazzion is an old man living his best life. Bul and I are too angry to die or on the verge of a heart attack. It's definitely not all in good fun, some of it can get mean spirited, sure. Sometimes they are laughing at you, not with you, and it's totally okay to remove yourself from the semi-school yard environment when someone is tilting.
ICly your character, not you, exists in a world with dangerous, cruel, selfish people. I'm going to let Fyrren have the last word on my post, though, to cover that: https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/comment/109259/#Comment_109259
So I've taken my fair share of breaks from Aetolia over the past couple years. Some were due to metagaming, some were due to homophobic remarks people made. Some were due to me being mentally unwell and the game being bad for me even though nobody did anything wrong. I think taking time away from Aetolia, especially if the very premise of the game is causing you distress, is a very good thing. I think leaving an org where you don't fit in is a very good thing. I'm not sure those are negatives. That's a thing we should be celebrating. Taking care of yourself and moderating the kind of play you experience is the responsible choice to make with a game like Aetolia. I'm glad you walked away when the game wasn't fun for you, but I think it's tremendously unfair to try and blame that on players roleplaying their characters. I also think it's really unfair to suggest that a guild should abandon its roleplay because it has a large population. I also think it's unfair to suggest that holding leaders accountable or pushing for transparency IC is tantamount to bullying at all.
I don't think less of you as a player for posting this, fwiw. I already knew you had this perspective, you've been relatively clear about it for a while. I just don't agree with it, and I think trying to deflect the responsibility we have as players to frame our relationship with the game correctly onto others for playing the way they want to play is not a fair or charitable thing to do. The OOC nastiness in web is absolutely and totally uncalled for, and I hate it every time I see it, and I always speak out when I see it spiraling. Others do as well, and I think it's well worth it to have more transparency and accountability for the things people say in there. Big fan of that.
But the thing is, Aetolia is not a fanfiction. It's not a single player game. It's not World of Warcraft. It's not even D&D. It's a living, breathing world where characters have motivations, often motivations that conflict with others'. Asking other people to cater their characters to other people's so they can have the maximum fantasy experience is really not a fair ask. I can also say that a lot of thought goes into the actions people take and that a lot of us choose the one that will cause the least amount of OOC grief; but asking folk to drop their characters because CT gets a little spicy sometimes or people ask City Leaders and Guild Leaders what's going on during an emergency like a rebellion or an existential threat to the whole plane, or worse, calling that behavior bullying, is absolutely silly. We have SO many tools to dial in the amount of focus that's placed on our characters. We can turn channels off, we can abdicate positions, we can turn tells off, we can ignore people, we can turn shouts off. We can quit guilds, cities, classes, subraces. We can decide not to jump into the middle of a fight when one is going on so we don't get swiped. Or we can choose to engage in all of these pieces of the game. But those pieces have consequences. They have stakes. They require roleplay and framing the game properly. And it also means that, sometimes, your character is gonna get bopped once or twice in the nose, and processing that is going to be a part of playing that part of the game.
This post is ALREADY getting crazy long, but I have to touch on one more thing, and...actually I'mma just C/P the section from my convo with Fyrren
edit: heck here's the log from my convo with Fyrren regarding this thread. It's probably worth a read for anybody invested in this topic: https://ada-young.com/pastebin/Rk7QSCdI
The notion that you can make a baseless allegation in public that is both hurtful and damaging to a person/organisation, and hide behind 'being afraid' or 'being hurt' to avoid accountability for the accusation is, in my opinion, a disgusting one.
So is the comparison to sexual assault.
And honestly there is a problem with Bloodloch. It is plainly obvious with the distribution in membership across the guilds. But I disagree that it is because the Carnifex 'bullied' everyone into joining. And while I have not been an Aetolian that long, I can say the Carnifex is the most active of the guilds and people are drawn to active guilds with dynamic leaders.
But AGAIN if there is this vast amount of bullying going on ISSUE, that kind of behavior is handled better through that medium than dramatic call out posts.
Also, uh, I don't think Rebra, anywhere, said this was being compared to sexual assault. Like, she didn't even use the word 'sexual'. She just said trauma, abuse, harassed; which, yes, COULD have sexual assault under that umbrella but that's not at all what I inferred from her statement. I took what she said as:
People who feel wronged or like they're the victim of some type of trauma - no matter how real or imagined it is - may have a difficult time broaching that in a public forum or calling attention to it, because they're treated a particular way until they come up with receipts of the alleged behavior.
Which is fine, I think, to expect proof of wrongdoing. I suppose I'm inclined to think there might be a little bit of truth in this huge post that Fyrren made, mainly because the playerbase can be real crappy sometimes - myself included. ESPECIALLY myself sometimes, like I can be just awful and it won't be until long after something's happened that I go "ah yeah, I suck". And I think maybe a forum post, however good the intentions were to shed light on a perceived problem, was probably the wrong way to go about this. I can't speak for @Mjoll, but I know if someone hopped into my DM's and talked to me one-on-one about a problem they had with the Templar or Enorian, I'd appreciate that more than waking up to a massive forum thread explaining why my org is bad and how I or my fellows allegedly made someone feel bad.
However, my closing statement is that I don't think any of the Carnifex players go out of their way (intentionally or unintentionally) to make other PLAYERS miserable. And if you (general 'you') feel like they are, then that's something best discussed with them personally rather than a public forum post that puts the entire guild on blast, even with the disclaimer that it's 'not all of them'.
Tell me how I'm doing!
It is inappropriate to try and make a connection between that sort of circumstance where believing accusers is obviously of paramount importance because the consequences of not believing them are so high and the kind of things that are being said in this thread. People are correct to point that out. I can believe that that was not Rebra's intention, but it was the implication and the result of that line of reasoning (especially considering the added context of it being relevant in the healthcare profession), and it's not appropriate.
We play characters on the mean, evil, bad guy side of the game. We are allies, it does not make us friends IC - both require RP and effort by both parties. It does not mean that you won't be bitten by someone on your own side of the game, especially in matters that the character considers important to themselves or their orgs.
It's important for me to point out that I initially specifically crafted a character that was quiet, reasonable, and more likely to handle things privately in order to find a resolution, but BL and its orgs forced that character to become louder, more outspoken, and to drag other characters kicking and screaming into the sunlight just to reach a conclusion, because so much of BL wants to run and hide when they're confronted. It is a natural progression of RP spurred by the characters and situations around my own.
The above DM makes it sound as if the way my character reacts on CT during IC stressful situations is the only way I play my character, but I know the person who DMed me has never actually RPed with my character to learn how reasonable they can be or why they might get bent out of shape by something like the Pillars weakening. Furthermore, this is not something I, or rather my character, do commonly. Anyone who actually pays attention to CT, who actually knows my character, knows better. It's frankly upsetting to have someone pretend they understand/know your character while not having any context and only being upset that you would challenge another character or org.
As I've already said, we're allies, it doesn't mean we're friends, and if my character feels like you're neglecting your responsibilities or failing BL, he's going to be very clear about that - it's the character others have made him. BL has a severe issue where character who cannot handle the heat still decide to bring it, get rightfully targeted for it, and then instead of admitting their mistake, run, hide, and spread rumours both IC and OOC about characters and players. The IC aspect I can understand and, while frustrating, even respect. Hiding doesn't absolve you of consequences, however. Refusing to engage after the fact does not absolve you of consequences. When you put your character's energy out there, expect it to be met. When you are a prominent character or org who fails to put your energy out there, expect it to be met. Not being online doesn't make RP stop. A lot happens while I'm offline, because I do not play this game for escapism or 24/7 like so many players tend to do, and I often have to come in after the fact in RP.
The OOC aspect of this behaviour, though, is the very same that spurred this thread in the first place and continually makes me question playing this game.
Let me be crystal clear: YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE MY RP AS LONG AS I'M NOT BREAKING RULES. YOU GET TO REACT TO IT.
If you cannot be bothered to RP with me to learn why my character might feel this way, ignore is right there. If it stresses you out, ignore is right there.
I'm supremely and deeply uncomfortable and hurt between this post and this DM and will no longer be entertaining people who want to discuss my RP OOC. If you think I'm breaking the rules or being a bully, issue me. Full stop.
Edit: And, frankly, criticizing my RP and implying things of me OOC without giving even a critical thought to others in the equation is disgusting. I'm exhausted by it. I am being gaslit, repeatedly, by players in this game exactly in the vein of this DM and I am really just... I don't know what to do at this point.
My DM's are always open Trance#3833 if you think you're being unfairly targeted or bullied or griefed by me or mine. I will hear your side and provide perspective.
This is explicit permission for those of you I have ignored in game to DM me. Don't be surprised if I block you if you bring the same energy that caused the ignore.
Not a single one of you has ever come to me or the admin(to my knowledge) about griefing of bullying, which are both against the rules, and something I would be happy to deal with.
A public hit piece like this is wildly inappropriate and does nothing but engender bad feelings for all parties involved and those folk just looking in with a bucket of popcorn.
Do better.
Same as Mjoll, though, my block finger is loose and trigger happy. One of my worst player interactions of all time (and then a couple others) were from OOC checkins about my character's actions, and I simply don't tolerate behavior that goes past a certain threshold, is abusive, or I perceive as manipulative.
That said, if you have a problem and you want to discuss it, I'm almost always willing to take the time to do so, provided you are acting in good faith. I can say with absolute certainty that I'd prefer someone approach me asking about stuff like this instead of having to read threads like these.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
(Web): Abhorash has left your web.
Alela's Affirmations
I would like to thank everyone for keeping this thread very constructive as I posted this with the foresight that it would spiral into something far worse than it has.
I would also like to apologize as a player to everyone I have griefed with this post. I do not hold any ill feelings towards any of you but I posted this while in a very bad mental state and after experiencing too much of what I have complained about. I do realize now the unfairness in this post but I do not take anything I said back as that is how I saw things at that point in time and I have learned from it, grown, and moved on. Sometimes great sacrifice is needed in order for progress, be it personal or not.
I have had a few longer conversations with some of you and it has given me far greater insight into my situation, position, and how the game just works in general and it has been a learning experience I am extremely grateful for. I am not posting this apology as an excuse for my own failings and behavior but to state that I have read and understood every response here and have understood all of your own perspectives and voices. And I accept the consequences of my own actions and failings and hypocrisy and only hope to grow better as a person, player, and through that, roleplayer. While I may not entirely agree with everything that has been said, I can understand now a lot better what players on 'the other side' experience and realize now that we are all really in the same boat. Some of us just don't see it. We are all trying to have a good time and I know now that as players your intentions are not to bully or grief but our characters do have a natural evolution to them and they will react based on who they are and their history. This is something I lost sight of due to a lot of more recent experiences, gossip, old history and beefs that largely are between other players and do not involve me directly. I just ended up in a position where I hear all of this all day from only a large chunk of the player base.
Unfortunately, Aetolia can create echo chambers very easily and it is easy to get sucked into one of these when you start to experience the negatives of the game. The echoes build and build and things that were once just circumstance evolve into conspiracy. And I realize that getting involved in this mindset is quite unhealthy and can ultimately cause a lot of damage and I also apologize for furthering the damage that there already is but it has made me appreciate all of you a lot more and your positions and the nuances of your characters and philosophies on roleplay. And through that, I will try to be a better player to help contribute to a more healthy environment rather than be a part of the ailment.
That being said, I was not alone in this perspective and feeling and I believe that my own failings and perspective at that time are shared by many other players. It does not justify the mindset but I would like people to understand that there are simply a lot of players who see things this way and I know now that the best way to open all of our minds and get out of this frame of mind is through constructive conversation and I will be engaging in this behavior more henceforth so I might grow and help others grow.
I apologize for what I will call here 'baseless accusations'. I did not post any evidence, logs, screenshots, etc. of what I have experienced and at this point in time there is no point as it would only further the damage. As with all logs, there is a POV and when one can only see their own point of view, it is easy to start accusing people of other things. Especially when others share that same singular POV.
I would like to explain that when I was writing this post initially, it was not isolated to a single experience or my own experiences but was with an amalgamation of frustrations that have built up by many players over many years. I am more aware now of how long of a conversation this has been as I have only joined the call relatively recently since rejoining the game. And in my position at the time, I was quite overwhelmed as a player as it felt so much more personal than it actually is and with this mindset in mind.
I know players who share a very similar perspective on things. I am not going to argue on who is right or wrong but I believe that it is good to confront what you might be perceiving as wrong, be it public or not, to be able to be given further insight into why one might be feeling this way. (keep in mind that it also requires one to question their own position and why they feel this way) So while I personally will be confronting people more directly and in a more private setting so they can have an equal ground to defend themselves on, I do believe that some people may just simply have to do what I have done in order to break out of their own ego and check themselves. As I have done.
Addressing my own failings as a leader:
I did not seek to become a leader in this game so suddenly but was more presented with two situations where I ended up being an option among a very few active and established players. I have been relying heavily on more experienced players in order to maintain the guild/order and learn but I did not realize how much of a mess things have been and the sheer volume of work that must be done. I don't plan to step down from anything at the moment but continue to try and learn and hopefully provide a much more enjoyable atmosphere in both the Teradrim and Ivoln Congregation/Order. My own experiences from the game and being a character that has never really been included in much due to my character's affiliations and my own real life demotivation and depression in the past has led me into a mindset as a player which is 'you'll figure it out yourself', as that is how I learned how to play, and it is not a very nurturing mindset to present to other players who want to enjoy the nuances of various events, lore, etc.
My greatest regret from everything before is that during the recent Teradrim event, I excluded a lot of people. I did not do this with the specific intent to exclude everyone but was quite overwhelmed with the amount of insults, criticism, etc. I was receiving over CT, (at that moment in time it all felt very personal and put me into a very dark state of mind), as well as the sheer volume of tells, says, emotes, and so forth that I was receiving, combined with the simple state of things and how I have been viewing things. I reacted by closing myself off so I could try to just focus on one thing and accomplish it and while ultimately, what was going on at that moment was isolated to the Teradrim/Ivolnorder, I did not understand that I had any ability to include anyone else from outside of those organizations and I did not explain this clearly in an IC manner and can entirely understand now why I was receiving what I perceived at that time as 'greifing and bullying'. I will do my best in the future to be as inclusive as I can be because good experiences are better when shared. I sincerely regret driving characters away from organizations and take full responsibility as a leader for my actions and will work to make sure I do not facilitate this further and if I am doing something that you perceive as bad leadership, distasteful, or ultimately counter productive and ostracizing please call me out on it and advise/teach me on how to do better. This is my first time ever in a position with this much power in the game and I have a lot to learn from all you masters.
I really feel shit about having pushed many of you away when I should really be hugging a large portion of you if not all of you. I feel like I have robbed so many of you from the experiences that we all want to be a part of. The damage is done, the wound was made. But time will heal all and I would rather be a part of the panacea rather than continue picking at the scab.
@Mjoll , @Bulrok , @Tetchta , @Iazamat , @Alela , @Xenia , and @ everyone in the Carnifex guild:
I know the damage I have caused and the anger some of you must feel towards me and I deeply feel ashamed to have gaslit any of you and hope that you can give me a second chance to prove that I do not have the intention of doing such things. I don't expect you to accept this apology but I write it to acknowledge that I know that how I handled things was pretty damn bad but I will learn from it and get better. And I sincerely apologize for putting you into this position but I hope you are able to understand where I was coming from and that I have grown from it.
-----
As always, I want to end all my posts with something positive and doubly so from now on.
I would like to thank all of you for your honesty and for humoring me during this growth period, as none of you have a responsibility to hold anyone else's hand but you do it anyway because we have to in order to keep our communities going. I thank all of you especially who came into this post and were able to put a logic to all the emotions and I thank all of you who vented your frustrations so directly because I realize now that we all suffered from this situation..
I look forward to seeing how our stories progress with this new found mindset.
I would also like to consider this the end of this particular discussion on the forum but feel free to comment anyway if there is something you feel must be said or even better, message me directly here or in game. My own discord is Vodkamizer#2386 if you feel like discussing things further over that particular medium. I will only be checking replies here but responding through messages if it is something I feel should be addressed more directly now.
Thank you all for your time and once again, sorry for the tower of text.
Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.