Griefing and bullying. It's not okay OOC but it is okay IC? (Wall of text warning)

Tetchta

(Don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don'--)

(I'm so sorry my brain is like this.)

edit: this is so much less funny when it's on its own page T_T

Fyrren

Tetchta said:

(Don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don't post the meme, it was a good, constructive comment don'--)

(I'm so sorry my brain is like this.)

edit: this is so much less funny when it's on its own page T_T

That got a strong chuckle out of me, not gonna lie xD

Seurimas

Why do things have to be this way? Can someone truly justify the idea that any form of bullying/griefing in an Out Of Character context is not okay but then play a character who partakes in bullying/griefing in an In Character context?

So, I read the original post and wrote up my counterpoint to this. Reading the whole thread now, I see you've come to understand the state of things a little better and are maybe feeling better, which is great. I'm still gonna leave this here, cause I took so long to write it. And so...

Aetolia is a game. Much like any other game, it lets you do things that you can't do in real life. Cast a spell. Travel across the world through a wormhole. Meet a god. Also like many other games, it lets you do things you shouldn't do in real life. Murder a dude. Start a war. Yes, be a bully. But this isn't a thread about what you can do, it's about what you should do. So, the question is: is it okay to be a bully? Can you be a bully IC without being one OOC? I would say, unequivocally and somewhat obviously, yes and yes.

My argument in favor of IC bullying is pretty simple. Your character is not real. No one's characters are real. Any hardship experienced by your character, even one whose story you have lovingly crafted, is not real. These unreal hardships are not meaningless (or else why go through the trouble of creating characters in the first place), but they are not the same as real hardships. Equating unreal bullying to real bullying is plainly as wrong as equating unreal murder and real murder.

That said, I want to just throw out that wrapping OOC bullying in a thin IC veneer is real, it is not okay, and it is a problem. I think it is done without thinking more often than not. Telling between IC and OOC bullying can be hard. The line between IC and OOC insults may be paper thin, and you may not recognize your own OOC bullying as being OOC, let alone the actions of another person. For example, I would say meta jokes likes "isn't Carnifex the only guild in Bloodloch?" fall on the OOC side, no matter how they're framed or worded. Even if you add all they "yay, verily" and colorful accents you can think of to the message, it's not really coming from an IC place so it's not IC. It's a joke at the expense of another organization for just being inactive, a mostly OOC observation. If I were to offer one tip for being a good bully, it's don't get meta.

Now, I don't get to put it into practice often, because my characters are actually pretty much Good Boys, by and large, but I do have some thoughts on how to be a good bully:
* Stick to IC vernacular and lay it on thick. I love calling non-Guilded Syssin Counterfeits. It makes your insults and your jibes more obviously unreal. I'd love to collaborate on an OOC dictionary of IC insults we can start hurling at people. I've been looking for IC swears for a while, too. We really need HELP INSULTS and HELP SWEARS that have some basic, agreed upon vernacular for everyone to use.
* If you have a particularly volatile exchange, throw out a tell just to let the other person know there's no hard feelings, if you think they might be receptive to that. OOC clans or webs may also be a good venue to just throw out a quick "no hard feelings, you guys are doing great, Seurimas is just being an a-hole" or something.
* Instead of or in addition to the above, I strongly suggest Esteem. It's underused, you can put basically all the same stuff in there, and I feel like it prompts people to reflect on the exchange as an IC interaction, even if they might usually assume OOC malice. Be sure to note some things you liked that their character did in that interaction, or else it's not really Esteem.
* Don't have a "god-mode personality", but don't let others dictate your gameplay either. There's a fine line to walk there. Your character should react to negative events. Brushing it off because "it's only death" or "it's only a disfavour" is a pretty meta, uninteresting way to play. Setbacks should temper your bravado. But you should feel just as ready to hold true to the character you're seeking to play.
* And, again, don't get meta.

As for how to deal with being IC bullied? I can't offer more than just "none of it is real". That's not always much comfort, when things feel like they're veering into the OOC, or when it's impacting your play in real ways. If things do take a turn for the OOC, address it OOCly. Call people out for their meta jokes. Don't be afraid to block people. If things persist longer or deeper than they should and it's affecting your play, you can try asking for some space OOCly, but also understand that your play will be impacted by others' play. Keep it IC as much as possible, and then keep it IC some more. You may have get creative to solve things ICly, but it's what we're here to do. Hopefully battlefields will help with this some. Now, you might be able to escalate a conflict to your guild, and get people interested in hashing things out on battlefields in climactic, cathartic events.

Stress in leadership, where you are in a position to induce changes, create RP opportunities and support game lore, is unfortunately a side thing that comes with the position. It is because it bears more than just IC responsibility, but also OOC ones to facilitate enjoyment of the game as a whole to others and not just yours. I promise that it gets better as time passes though.

I'd also like to second this from Elene. Your experience with the Teradrim sounds a lot like my experience with the Syssin. At the time I became GM, we had just had three or four of our most active players make rather public and tumultuous departures from the game. It was either me, or one other person, basically. I bit the bullet and contested, and it has been stressful from before the moment I was even officially GM. I wish there were more support for and between leaders, because it is not always easy.

In the spirit of being positive, I will make the obvious observation that, while it can be stressful and difficult, leading an organization can also be rewarding. Whether it's getting to see one of your guild member's stories flourish the way they ought to, or having a Celani playing to your guild as an audience, or just being able to make your own impact with your guild and have it mean a little something more, there's a lot of good reasons to lead an organization.

Mati

Just stopping by to put my lot behind using +esteem to help diffuse tension OOC after a rough encounter, preferable to shooting an OOC tell. I get pretty weirded out when people I don't know or hardly know send me OOC tells about roleplay (unless it's a comfort check) and using the esteem system, I feel, helps keep the conflict firmly rooted in the structure of the game and not break immersion, and helps you to be in a mindset of constructive and appreciative phrasing that goes a longer way than a tell seurimas //gg. I also just feel the system should be used more in general, and it's nice to have a little log you can look back on and remember interactions your character has had, and positive players you want to keep in touch with whether or not your characters necessarily got along! Overall a great "hey this was fun for me, hope it was fun for you too!" tool. It also affords the player cooldown time from the tension before responding, if that's something they like to have.