Griefing and bullying. It's not okay OOC but it is okay IC? (Wall of text warning)

Lately I have not been playing as much as I would like to, mostly due to real life health reasons as I have been going through many dental issues and am currently waiting for surgery to remove an impacted wisdom tooth that is growing into my jaw and against a nerve, inducing 24/7 headaches.

What little time I do have for playing has gone into basic leadership responsibilities and dealing with a large amount of griefing and bullying.

It is widely known that the Carnifex guild are a group of thug-like, brutal badasses who chew bubblegum or kick ass and they are always out of bubblegum. Unfortunately, what this guild has cultivated in my view is a mob-mentality within the game and it has had a negative impact on many other characters/players as a consequence.

People often talk about being able to separate OOC emotions from IC emotions but over the two decades that this game has been around, it should be obvious by now that some players are capable of this very well and play some very unique characters without missing a beat and strive to prevent any sort of OOC bias to dictate the actions of their characters and kudos to you hardcore roleplayers for it, you have got some mad skills and not just anyone can do that level of immersive roleplay.

However, there are also many players who are not able to do this nearly as well or simply are not playing the game for the same level of immersion on a daily basis. Some people just want to be able to pursue their interests in the game, be it crafting, lore, bashing, general chatting over webs or OOC clans, whatever. There are so many ways to play this game and that's what makes this game special in my mind.

Lately there has been a trend going on in Bloodloch due to what I and many others know as the monopoly the Carnifex hold in sheer numbers and mob-mentality and it has quite frankly turned into what I can only describe as a culture that deals with others through sheer bullying and griefing, be them ally or enemy, it doesn't matter to them.

What has this done? It has caused an extremely hostile environment to play in. Sure, Bloodloch is supposed to be this brutal city of undeath, but all I have experienced from the Carnifex is a selfish, divisive, and entitled method of dealing with anything. They are intrusive, demand much without offering anything substantial in return, will try to manipulate other guilds through any means necessary such as herd mentality voting in order to stunt their sister guilds' voices or to try to manipulate leaderships of smaller guilds through telling them what is good for them, which essentially means "do what we say or you will regret it". A mentality that is more often linked with criminal organizations than with civilians.

It is my view that a city is supposed to be made up by a majority of members from the three guilds that call it home, which means that those guilds should be working together towards a common goal and respecting the authority and autonomy of each other over their given charge. Teradrim - Pillars of the Earth/Undeath. Dominion - The Blood. Carnifex - The Master Soulstone.

What has happened instead is the Carnifex essentially bullying the leadership and members of the Teradrim and Dominion in order to achieve their own goals with zero regard for what the characters of these two guilds are trying to achieve themselves within the confines of their own guilds and with their roles in the city of Bloodloch. The Carnifex players may be enjoying this as a form of 'immersive roleplay' but it is at the cost of 'immersive roleplay' for others. Instead of being able to deal with the Teradrim/Ivoln/Undeath themed roleplay that I would rather be doing, I have to deal with the real life stress that is induced from a barrage of bullying, insults, accusations, threats, demands, and so forth FROM AN ALLIED GUILD.

Why do things have to be this way? Can someone truly justify the idea that any form of bullying/griefing in an Out Of Character context is not okay but then play a character who partakes in bullying/griefing in an In Character context?

This is all written from my own point of view and I have voiced it here rather than in game due to the fact that I experience a straight up sensation of real life fear for the fate of my character should I voice anything in character at this point in time. I have invested money and much time, as any other long time player has and I don't want to see this all gone to waste because I have an opinion about things that do not go with the current status quo but sadly that is the state of mind I have been brought to. It is even to the point that I write this post knowing that I will likely suffer further consequences for speaking up on these issues, be it through OOC backlash on the forums or Shadow Web or the meta bias that will likely make me the target of further griefing and bullying IC. But at this point, I rather speak up than lurk and just watch this happen.

There are many players in this game who will justify their behavior as it being a part of their character and 'immersive roleplay' but where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line between being an evil undead dude and straight up griefing people? I speak with players on a daily basis who have crossed 'the mob' and thus suffer greatly for what in my mind are trivial mistakes or simply real life circumstances that have forced a player to take certain actions In Character such as avoiding certain positions or stepping down from positions, etc. Should they continue to suffer for this? Are their own experiences and suffering inconsequential and thus should be allowed to be treated as lepers and pariahs indefinitely?

I have played a Teradrim for a long time and have had my ups and downs but any player who knows me IC or OOC well enough knows that I play this game ONLY for the Teradrim/Ivoln/Undead lore and related. I have my faults as any other player has but I do try to at least provide as welcoming an environment as I can in a game format that is not going to be seeing a renaissance any time soon. I try to breed collaboration rather than division. Community building rather than fracturing. But trying to do this while being a target of what I perceive as a clandestinely organized smear campaign has brought me to a dismal mindset.

Due to the current situation I have explained, I will be cancelling my subscription to the game and ceasing any spending in it as I cannot justify paying for something that allows for an environment with this level of bullying and griefing. If things change, I will likely continue my subscription once more.

Also, I do not mean this as an attack on any one individual but rather a vocalization of what I have been experiencing lately. I am very well aware that I am going to be likely experiencing a lot worse after this post.

----

But as I like to end any post like this with a bit of brightness rather than just a straight up rant, I will like to give thanks to every player who has made this game worth sticking around for as long as I have since my return.

Everyone in TCC, you give me the strength to weather through everything, whether it is IC drama or real life struggles and I truly feel I have grown to be a better person since getting to know many of you better and experiencing what it is like to have a great online community to be a part of. I love you all.

To the Teradrim guild members, you are the reason I play this game, let alone Fyrren, and no matter how tough things get for me in game or in real life, you always have my back and keep me anchored and help me get through things. I could not ask for a better in-game community to be a part of and it is always a pleasure when we get to explore our extremely niche style of roleplay and lore. I give an extra big shoutout to @Zenobia , @Amarita , @Macavity , and @Malcanthet because you are my Aetolia-family and you rock my world. (Teradrim puns are mandatory.)

To the admins and developers and volunteers, thank you for your endless dedication to keeping this game going and no matter how bad things get in the short term, you all seem to find a way to fix things and make things once more enjoyable for so many people. Keep on being awesome!
image
Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
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Comments

  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited October 2021
    edit: you know what, nah, screw this post, the entire premise is whack from the ground up and absolutely against the spirit of roleplay and the game, I'm not even gonna waste my time

    Iazamat
  • The Carnifex did not put the Teradrim in a position to act how they acted. The Teradrim did what the Teradrim did, and if they didn't want any negative reactions, then maybe they could have taken a different approach.

    Calling us (the players) all griefers and bullies is pretty bullshit and uncalled for, tbqh. Incredibly uncalled for.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    TetchtaNipsyAlelaIazamatMjollIllikaal
  • edited October 2021
    I'm just going to say because I'm biased. The Carnifex weren't the people telling others to stop asking questions on CT or trying to stop discussion on CT. One that wasn't even started by a Carnifex so I'm not entirely sure where the bullying aspect is coming from outside of the general bullying all orgs do to each other to get anything accomplished.

    Also I don't really have a comment on the other two guilds since it's been a bit since I've played in either one of them. I also don't really know anyone who's super active in either of them that I interact with only a semi frequent basis anymore.

    IazamatBulrokMjoll
  • NipsyNipsy Setting fire to Aeryx's mine
    edited October 2021
    I interact with Carnifex players daily, and they fill a role and RP an amazing representation of their niche within the Roleplay world as a whole.
    I find that in reasons of conflict there is alot to say for how and why we approach things the way we do as players, but in my experience both IC and OOC, The Carnifex are generally true to their RP and are some of the most supportive players on an OOC basis, avoiding being a clique and seeking to aid the whole.

    I do not see much -world- interaction from the Teradrim, save for maybe a sermon to Ivoln being shouted, or Mileta being helpful to other players, but I don't see much from other Teradrim in a bigger picture than their Teradrim world. And this is completely a personal take and it may be broader than what I see as a player, but I have only really experienced Fyrren doing sermons, Mileta doing inter-organization OOC help and communication and then a young Teradrim named Gribbit who is embracing his role with the whole. (Current events aside, the Teradrim should have taken the lead on, but it sounds like Bamathis Order is the more worldly approach on this, especially from a Spirean standpoint. Which is great PS, cause big threats.)

    I believe that if we perhaps outreach to communicate in a manner befitting, instead of OOC coming for an entire Org, that might bolster a more inclusive and healthy environment, but by presenting a post like this one, it is only driving that wedge deeper.

    EDIT: I will also add, I have been in the position you are in and let my decision making OOC based on IC stuff get the best of me and cause me to burn many bridges and harm friendships, and its not good for one to do that to themselves, take a break if its effecting you like this, come back refreshed, with new perspective. There are great things happening in Aetolia currently, big strides forward, be part of the positive change and not the bad feelings that you are choosing to hold onto. I promise it will get better with perspective and time away. (2 cents)
    Alela
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited October 2021
    I keep trying to come up with a thing to say to this but every time I start I just get extremely angry, but also overwhelmed. Do I try to unpack "bullying the people with leadership positions when they signed on to be leaders and bear the responsibilities of that role" first, or do I go for the implication that there's some sort of metagaming plot to ruin everyone's and/or a specific someone's play experience (when, by the way, Carnifex players are often the ones telling people to stop metagaming in OOC mediums)? Or do I take a crack at the suggestion that players are obligated to explain their characters' motivations out of character on demand whenever their actions inconvenience another person? Or do I roll the dice on trying to dissect what precisely is even "bullying" here?

    Because I'm guessing, if this is referencing the past couple weeks of IC stuff (which has been a hoot), a lot of the "bullying" has been characters living in the world asking whether they should be concerned about existential threats that directly impact them, as well as asking for accountability. I have no idea what consequences your character is eating, if any, in game, but this really reeks of "my character had a consequence for an action and I can't take it." It also reads as a bad faith attempt to bait pretty much every Carnifex player into being an aggro jerkwad so you can go "see what I mean?" when pretty much anybody who is slapped with a massive label and unfounded accusations would be understandably angry and upset at the suggestion.

    If you can't take the heat of leadership and the responsibilties that entails, you can step down. I've done it a bunch of times in game when I didn't want to keep doing the job. If you are really some person who wants to do nothing but craft and have slice of life RP, that's something you can do! In a guild, even! You just don't become a public-facing mascot for your organization that has to interact with other people and represent their org and its responsibilities. Like I'm not in a real leadership role in the Carnifex right now and as a result I could mostly just screw off and do whatever I want and almost pretend to not be a Carnifex, if I really really wanted.

    This post is so nasty and runs against the very heart of what roleplay is and I'm, honestly, appalled that it was written, let alone posted. Also THIS:
    due to the fact that I experience a straight up sensation of real life fear for the fate of my character should I voice anything in character at this point in time
    this is a really unhealthy thing and if that's something you're legitimately experiencing, you really might consider taking a break from the game altogether, because this is not a healthy attitude to bring to...honestly any recreational activity.

    NipsyAlelaBulrokIazamatMjollTalamh
  • edited October 2021
    I haven't read all the responses just yet, but Fyrren's OP and title make me immediately supremely uncomfortable because it indicates a lack of separation by players.

    Edit: It also indicates, to me, that the same OOC rumours and victimhood responses are continuing to propagate in the shadows unchecked, with absolutely zero critical thought given to them.
    TetchtaNipsyBulrokAlelaMjollGalilei
  • I'm surprised, honestly. I believed Alela had a good relationship with Fyrren ICly, and I thought we were somewhat chummy OOC as well. I've certainly not tried to antagonize you personally.

    For better or worse, I'm usually willing to give some amount of insight into my character's behavior if someone tells me they're feeling down because of it. In that spirit, my intent has mainly been to push for information and inclusion. It seems as though the Teradrim believe these are their events alone - an impression I've formed based on their apparent reluctance to tell anyone anything, let alone invite outside participation - and I think they're mistaken in this belief. Last night's disturbances were causing damage and lengthy stuns to numerous people at odd intervals, which meant we couldn't just get on with our business until we were relatively certain it wasn't going to continue. Furthermore, from an RP standpoint, all Undead should be concerned by issues with Earth, and all people in Sapience (who aren't openly defying Varian?) should be concerned about related Albedi threats. We push and push and push because we get nothing otherwise. The Teradrim guild has been like this for a long time, so while it may feel unfair to you as only recently the leader, you're experiencing the fruits of seeds long since sown.

    For real, I don't want you or anyone else to feel bullied. However, I don't accept that's what's actually happening here. You (as in the Teradrim in general) need to look at your behaviors and recognize that other characters are going to respond negatively to being shoved out constantly.
    (Web): Abhorash has joined your web.
    (Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
    (Web): Abhorash has left your web.



    Alela's Affirmations
    IazamatMjollMatiTetchtaBulrok
  • Xenia said:

    It's a real problem that has resulted in plenty of resentment felt on both sides while those who have felt stifled in the Terradrim and Dominion have found themselves escaping this in the Carnifex, thus making it the largest population in Bloodloch. If this is happening, I can only recommend taking a good hard look at how you are doing things in your own micro-organism and see how to resolve this population discrepancy. Focusing on the backlash you're experiencing is trying to treat the symptom and not the illness.

    Honestly, this cannot be said enough. I can easily say that I have not once outguilded someone simply for divulging something said on GTS - something that didn't even pertain to the guild. I also did not experience any of the metagaming or unwillingness in the Carnifex that I experienced in both the Teradrim and Dominon. The phone call is coming from inside the house.
    TetchtaMjollAlela

  • Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
    IazamatTetchtaEhtiasXeniaBulrokIllikaal
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Link for the people who have scaling issues with the image: https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/comment/109259/#Comment_109259

    It's really frustrating to read a comment like that after this post.

    IazamatMjoll
  • edited October 2021
    Alela said:

    It seems as though the Teradrim believe these are their events alone - an impression I've formed based on their apparent reluctance to tell anyone anything, let alone invite outside participation - and I think they're mistaken in this belief. Last night's disturbances were causing damage and lengthy stuns to numerous people at odd intervals, which meant we couldn't just get on with our business until we were relatively certain it wasn't going to continue. Furthermore, from an RP standpoint, all Undead should be concerned by issues with Earth, and all people in Sapience (who aren't openly defying Varian?) should be concerned about related Albedi threats. We push and push and push because we get nothing otherwise. The Teradrim guild has been like this for a long time, so while it may feel unfair to you as only recently the leader, you're experiencing the fruits of seeds long since sown.

    For real, I don't want you or anyone else to feel bullied. However, I don't accept that's what's actually happening here. You (as in the Teradrim in general) need to look at your behaviors and recognize that other characters are going to respond negatively to being shoved out constantly.

    I want to highlight this as talking about what I said earlier about a culture of enabling. This is an example of not enabling players. The Teradrim were the gateway into this most recent event. What this means is on an OOC level there is a responsibility as Terradrim players to do their part to make this happen and give people things to do. Put on your RP pants and start making shit up if you have to that gives people something to do if you don't know what needs to happen yet, IC. But going silent and not divulging what is happening perpetuates the insular situation that has been cultivated by the Terradrim for a very long time.

    It's the insular culture that people are upset with and Fyrren is now in a position where they either have to create the culture shift that sheds the guild in a better light or bear the brunt of frustration that has been brewing for generations of GMs in the Terradrim. It may not feel fair to be new to the position and have to deal with it, but at the same time when the behavior exhibited perpetuates an insular attitude nothing is going to change.

    I can't stress enough the importance of being self aware as a GM, not only of yourself but of how your guild is coming across. If you don't have a finger on that pulse you're going to have a bad time and probably think you're being bullied.

    IazamatMjollGalileiTetchtaIesidFyrren
  • I have mixed feelings about the Teradrim since joining. I really love the lore of the Teradrim and our guild members are nice enough. I have not seen any bad talk about Teradrim on Shadow Web or about its members. But I am not Fyrren so I cannot speak, nor will I, to people directly being mean to him in OOC.  And if that is happening that is a different issue and should probably be resolved in issues. I can speak to the fact that as a new member that the guild could do a better job with being inclusive in RP.
    MjollIazamatTetchtaXeniaAlelaMatiEscelika
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited October 2021
    This is bordering on off topic but the Teradrim have some of the coolest lore in the game and there are lots of ways to spin that to create engagement both within and without the guild.

    IazamatMjollXeniaGribbitAlela
  • You need to post evidence of this bullying and griefing.

    If it's there, then the Carnifex need to be accountable.

    If you come up short, sorry, but you're the asshole.
    Mjoll
  • edited October 2021
    Honestly, I loved my time in the Fex. It was a lot of fun. You are right in that, usually, the Fex ride or die together. But they are a military organization. That should be expected. Dissenters are killed and removed. It fits their RP of savage knights. I see what you are saying, but I just disagree. They will bully and threaten to get their way. 

    Now if this is happening oocly, it really should be addressed. 
  • Elene said:

    Stress in leadership, where you are in a position to induce changes, create RP opportunities and support game lore, is unfortunately a side thing that comes with the position. It is because it bears more than just IC responsibility, but also OOC ones to facilitate enjoyment of the game as a whole to others and not just yours. I promise that it gets better as time passes though.

    I particularly agree with this. And it ties in to what Xenia said about RPing as a method actor v.s. director. In RP, there is often (nearly always, and seldom not) a grey area where you can select a range of decisions that all still fit your character. Within that range of choices, you can pick the ones that maximises your own enjoyment, or one that maximises the enjoyment of players around you, or, as is usually the case, something in between.

    My personal take is that when you take on leadership roles in the game, the onus is you to shift away from a strict, me-only, my character first, method-actor approach. The role is a job, and is one of responsibility. It's not a reward for winning an election. You have the additional burden of facilitating enjoyment for as many players as possible other than just yourself.

    (To be clear - this is just my general two cents that came from what I thought were pretty insightful points made by others. My take on the situation is the same as above - post evidence, otherwise making such bare allegations is quite, imo, a hurtful and reprehensible thing to do.)
    IazamatMjollTeaniAlela
  • edited October 2021
    I want to preface by noting that I do not believe that every member of the Carnifex goes out of their way in an OOC fashion to cause anyone grief or to bully anyone. I doubt many people do, in any setting. We each like to think of ourselves as just, fair people in a just, fair world, and it can be easy to believe, in a group or community setting where everyone we're friendly with seems to agree with one another, that we are right, and any mention of a different experience must be false, or must be the fault of that person's own actions. They just aren't approaching things right; they must try harder; they're not doing enough.

    There are people in this thread who assert that a victim must provide specific proof of their distress and their experience of abuse in a public setting for all to see, or they must by default not be believed. I can think of real life situations where such proof is also demanded of victims, and as a physician and mental health provider in real life, I have seen the fallout of such an attitude for those who have had the courage to come out with any account at all of their distress, and their experience is repeatedly invalidated by default.

    Certainly, allegations should be based in fact. But it is important to acknowledge that it can take someone who is truly harassed or abused an immense amount of courage and willpower to provide such details of their trauma, especially for a skeptical audience who have already presdisposed themselves to not believe them, especially for an audience that consists partly of the accused themselves, and who hold a relatively greater degree of power, both in game and out, if only for the fact of having greater numbers, among other factors. The process can be re-traumatizing, embedding and worsening the trauma further. The playing field, in that case, is not neutral, but is stacked against the speaker from the start.

    It may be a mistake for me to be open and honest with my own, OOC experience of the community in Aetolia in this setting, because I am aware the deck is stacked against me, and I am aware that my voice, and the OP's, will be drops in the sea of others who already think differently: Perhaps barraged by a sea of disagrees and lol's, perhaps marked as off-topic - I hope not, and I hope I can have faith that people are still willing to hear the voices of people who might have a different experience from them, and appreciate the courage that went into saying anything at all. I am aware that what I say has a likelihood of forever colouring what other players or even admin OOCly think of me as a person, and perhaps, ICly my character as a character, going forward. But I feel that I must share my experience, so the OP's account is not again discounted as a single instance, to be brushed off, as other voices have been brushed off before.

    As people already know now who have read the townhall logs for Ictinus, I stopped engaging deeply in Aetolia about a year ago, due to my observation of certain destructive behaviours in Aetolia's player community, particularly on the shadow side. This was based partly in OOC observation, over the course of two years, of comments in shadow web that openly disparaged members of the Dominion and Teradrim guilds, or the Dominion and Teradrim guilds in general, and raised the Carnifex guild above all others in Bloodloch. There were comments including, and I quote, "Vampires bad, carnifex good." and "F*** teradrim guild." and someone who said of the Carnifex, "...isn't it the only guild in Bloodloch?" and that "Dominion isn't a guild, never has been...I refuse to see it as a guild. And...I thought the Teradrim was just a place holder because I didn't know there were people still in the guild...?" These are just drops of OOC comments in a sea of them that I bore witness to over months and years.

    I recognise that not every member of the Carnifex has participated in such behaviour, and not every comment made on shadow web was made by a member of the Carnifex. It can be emotionally difficult to see a post such as the OP's, and feel like you're unfairly implicated in something that you do not feel you have personally done; it can be easy to be defensive in such a setting, and to jump in in defense of yourself and your guild, and to question the person providing allegations whether they were at fault. And yet, like it or not, Carnifex as a whole has likely benefited from such attitudes and such talk as I have given examples of, and the Dominion and Teradrim likely have been negatively affected by such talk, regardless of individual intentions. Shadow web after all, is a popular OOC hangout for newbies and new players and the shadow community at large, who are affected by the attitudes put forth.

    The Carnifex, by assertions of certain posters in this thread, is in a position of privilege by numbers and by popularity as it is. Attributions are made of such success to a culture that enables its members rather than stifles, and I do not doubt that is part of it; Mjoll, and all those who have helped her build the guild, have put a tremendous amount of work into making the guild as rich and unique as it is. I have personally witnessed Mjoll and some others of the Carnifex spend quite a lot of time with newbies to help them integrate into Bloodloch and Carnifex and particularly the PVP culture of shadow side. I do not doubt assertions by multiple posters in this thread that they have had wonderful experiences in their contact with the Carnifex. These are likely true, for I too have had great experiences with members of the Carnifex.

    That positive, enriching experiences exist and have been provided by the Carnifex and members of the Carnifex does not discount that harm may have been done by some. And again, Carnifex being in a position of privilege means that it may be helpful regardless, given the power and privilege that they enjoy, for its members to look outside the echo chamber of contentment they exist in to see what experience others may be having, and how they might use their power for the better. I am an example of a person who has essentially stopped playing the game because I could no longer log on to such an atmosphere as existed on shadow tether at the time, such that I recused myself. My character has a childe who left Bloodloch and shadow side altogether because of the player culture. My character has a sire who just retired, likely for the same reason. So yes, I agree Carnifex likely has support and numbers and popularity because people within it enjoy being in it and the benefits it provides. But the numbers divide may also have contributions, however small, from people in other guilds leaving because they were -not- having a good time in the current culture engendered in Bloodloch, and they did not wish to join the Carnifex to find a good time because maybe in some small part, some of the attitudes and behaviours of Carnifex members were part of that.

    None of us are perfect people. And I imagine there can be fingers pointed at me for things I or my character has done. I own that I have not acted in ways I wish I could have at times, and I have wrestled with trying to work in a way to make people's experiences better, not worse - and I know I have not always succeeded. And, I am writing this to implore that maybe, insteading jumping immediately to defense, some of the participants of this thread can also take some time to think and acknowledge ways that they, in their privileged position, could work to make someone else's playing experience better as well. I hope the player culture has changed since my own breaking point some time ago; please, show that it has.

    Edit:
    Because this has been brought up so many times by people, I would like to reaffirm, based on professional experience and knowledge, that trauma is trauma. While sexual trauma and physical violence are devastating and make up what people think of when trauma is mentioned, they do not make up all of what trauma can be, or the emotional and physiological experiences of trauma that remain for those who have experienced it. While sexually and physically violent trauma have the added burdens of immediate dangers to life and body, verbal and emotional trauma, interpersonal and spiritual trauma can also trigger the same base bodily responses, beyond words, that a sexual assault or physical violence can cause. These are responses that can last for years, and can be greatly debilitating to mental health and sometimes, unfortunately, also be a risk to life. This applies as well in the case of situations where people feel they have been the subject of bullying or mobbing. While I recognise and appreciate the need of people to particularly honour and believe the horrific, life-threatening experiences of sexual trauma victims, that is not all there is. To deny the physiological responses of trauma in situations where that trauma is triggered or the experience is invalidated, whatever the origin, is to do a disservice to all of those, present in this community and beyond, who continue to struggle with their trauma on a day to day basis, and which also cause significant functional impairment and pain in people's lives.

    So please, I ask that we do have a conversation about my points, but do not invalidate the experiences of people who truly have experienced trauma, whatever the origin.
    Some lovely images of Rebra by @Konnorn, Acaisha Buffo, and @Eleanor respectively!

    Rebra chibi
    Rebra
    Callidora and Rebra
    SaltzTozTetchtaAeryxAlmolIazamatBeivuMjollSryaenNipsyBulrokObaAlelaCallidoraGalileiMacavityIllikaal
  • TozToz
    edited October 2021
    I think comparing, even subtly, someone upset over IC actions prompting an IC reply to sexual assault survivors or other abuse survivors is gross and wholly unpleasant, to be honest. I'm also clicking the 'disagree' button despite what feels like another attempt at drawing an emotional reaction with the whole 'I expect to be attacked for my post but hopefully not' bit, because I genuinely disagree with a lot of what was written.

    Since I've been back, everyone and everything has been roasted in shadow web, as well. The banter might not be for everyone, absolutely, but in my experience no org is really 'safe'. The Carnifex eat crayons, kick puppies, Mjoll is too stupid to lose fights. Mazzion is an old man living his best life. Bul and I are too angry to die or on the verge of a heart attack. It's definitely not all in good fun, some of it can get mean spirited, sure. Sometimes they are laughing at you, not with you, and it's totally okay to remove yourself from the semi-school yard environment when someone is tilting.

    ICly your character, not you, exists in a world with dangerous, cruel, selfish people. I'm going to let Fyrren have the last word on my post, though, to cover that: https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/comment/109259/#Comment_109259

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    TetchtaIazamatNipsyLenorielAlelaGalileiAxiusIllikaal
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited October 2021
    So, bear with me, ther was a lot posted here and I'm not going to address all of it. I'm going to try and hit the most important bits.
    Rebra said:

    I can think of real life situations where such proof is also demanded of victims, and as a physician and mental health provider in real life, I have seen the fallout of such an attitude for those who have had the courage to come out with any account at all of their distress...

    Certainly, allegations should be based in fact. But it is important to acknowledge that it can take someone who is truly harassed or abused an immense amount of courage and willpower to provide such details of their trauma

    I know you're trying to make a point, but this is...really gross to me? Comparing discomfort one experiences from roleplay in a roleplaying game (RP that doesn't involve physical or sexual abuse on top of it) to victim blaming in sexual assault or domestic abuse because folk are asking for examples of bullying is just...really disingenous. Like, get some perspective here, I'm begging you, because this is just not an okay framework to bring to this discussion. If anything, people who are being accused of this sort of thing are, frankly, owed specifics and logs, both so they can be held accountable and so they can defend themselves. Right now, it's still all nebulous things with no grounding, and yet we have to defend ourselves anyway.
    Rebra said:

    This was based partly in OOC observation, over the course of two years, of comments in shadow web that openly disparaged members of the Dominion and Teradrim guilds, or the Dominion and Teradrim guilds in general, and raised the Carnifex guild above all others in Bloodloch. There were comments including, and I quote, "Vampires bad, carnifex good." and "F*** teradrim guild." and someone who said of the Carnifex, "...isn't it the only guild in Bloodloch?" and that "Dominion isn't a guild, never has been...I refuse to see it as a guild. And...I thought the Teradrim was just a place holder because I didn't know there were people still in the guild...?" These are just drops of OOC comments in a sea of them that I bore witness to over months and years.

    So, I've spent a great deal of time in Shadow Web and seen probably the depths of how bad it can get, and I know it sucks in there. That said, given that this post is about the Carnifex, I really feel like I have to point out that the loudest and biggest advocates against saying nasty things about other players and guilds, especially OOC, have all been Carnifex players. If there's someone who steps up to say "knock that crap off," 9/10 times it's a Carnifex player. I've seen some of these comments (though not all of them), and I can say that I've always seen someone say to knock it off.
    Rebra said:

    Carnifex as a whole has likely benefited from such attitudes

    I'm not sure I buy this, and I'm going to have to see a bit more intellectual legwork done to prove this point.
    Rebra said:

    is in a position of privilege by numbers and by popularity as it is... That positive, enriching experiences exist and have been provided by the Carnifex and members of the Carnifex does not discount that harm may have been done by some. And again, Carnifex being in a position of privilege means that it may be helpful regardless, given the power and privilege that they enjoy, for its members to look outside the echo chamber of contentment they exist in to see what experience others may be having, and how they might use their power for the better.

    This is kind of a premise treated as a given in your arguments and I just...don't think that guild population numbers are as big a deal as far as in game power goes as you are claiming. Similar things were claimed before the government shift; that the population of the guild means they have all the power, and yet shortly after such assertions were made...the only sitting Carnifex in the BL council got unseated and the guild lost their voice in the government. I'm guessing the point being made here, or that's attempting to be made is, because the guild is popular and has a comparatively high population to some other guilds (I don't know other guild numbers, either, I'm not sure how appreciably different it even is), that they are in a position of power, both IC and OOC, and therefore are obligated to view the impact of their roleplay through the lens of how it impacts player experience, otherwise they're bullying? And I don't think I buy that, but even if I did, I'm not sure I buy that anybody's been bullied by RP here. I just got done talking in web with @Fyrren about this, and @xenia touched on this as well, but people who have been the target of character attention have almost exclusively been characters who are in positions of power and authority: city leaders, guild leaders, important ministries; people who signed on to be the focal point of that kind of attention. It goes with the job. You hold the keys to power, you draw citizen attention. If you're the figurehead of your guild, yeah, you're gonna be the mascot people go to to complain.
    Rebra said:

    I am an example of a person who has essentially stopped playing the game because I could no longer log on to such an atmosphere as existed on shadow tether at the time, such that I recused myself. My character has a childe who left Bloodloch and shadow side altogether because of the player culture.

    So I've taken my fair share of breaks from Aetolia over the past couple years. Some were due to metagaming, some were due to homophobic remarks people made. Some were due to me being mentally unwell and the game being bad for me even though nobody did anything wrong. I think taking time away from Aetolia, especially if the very premise of the game is causing you distress, is a very good thing. I think leaving an org where you don't fit in is a very good thing. I'm not sure those are negatives. That's a thing we should be celebrating. Taking care of yourself and moderating the kind of play you experience is the responsible choice to make with a game like Aetolia. I'm glad you walked away when the game wasn't fun for you, but I think it's tremendously unfair to try and blame that on players roleplaying their characters. I also think it's really unfair to suggest that a guild should abandon its roleplay because it has a large population. I also think it's unfair to suggest that holding leaders accountable or pushing for transparency IC is tantamount to bullying at all.

    I don't think less of you as a player for posting this, fwiw. I already knew you had this perspective, you've been relatively clear about it for a while. I just don't agree with it, and I think trying to deflect the responsibility we have as players to frame our relationship with the game correctly onto others for playing the way they want to play is not a fair or charitable thing to do. The OOC nastiness in web is absolutely and totally uncalled for, and I hate it every time I see it, and I always speak out when I see it spiraling. Others do as well, and I think it's well worth it to have more transparency and accountability for the things people say in there. Big fan of that.

    But the thing is, Aetolia is not a fanfiction. It's not a single player game. It's not World of Warcraft. It's not even D&D. It's a living, breathing world where characters have motivations, often motivations that conflict with others'. Asking other people to cater their characters to other people's so they can have the maximum fantasy experience is really not a fair ask. I can also say that a lot of thought goes into the actions people take and that a lot of us choose the one that will cause the least amount of OOC grief; but asking folk to drop their characters because CT gets a little spicy sometimes or people ask City Leaders and Guild Leaders what's going on during an emergency like a rebellion or an existential threat to the whole plane, or worse, calling that behavior bullying, is absolutely silly. We have SO many tools to dial in the amount of focus that's placed on our characters. We can turn channels off, we can abdicate positions, we can turn tells off, we can ignore people, we can turn shouts off. We can quit guilds, cities, classes, subraces. We can decide not to jump into the middle of a fight when one is going on so we don't get swiped. Or we can choose to engage in all of these pieces of the game. But those pieces have consequences. They have stakes. They require roleplay and framing the game properly. And it also means that, sometimes, your character is gonna get bopped once or twice in the nose, and processing that is going to be a part of playing that part of the game.

    This post is ALREADY getting crazy long, but I have to touch on one more thing, and...actually I'mma just C/P the section from my convo with Fyrren

    There's def a "separation between IC and OOC" dogma where people seem like they feel compelled to never feel stressed from stuff that happens in game, but I don't think it's about that. "IC and OOC are Separate" is more meant to be a mantra that you use to remind yourself of the nature of the game when it DOES stress you out and to help keep you from getting resentful toward other players. re: escapism, I really, honestly, fully think Aetolia is a really dangerous game to use for escapism. Video Games or books and TTRPGs even are a lot safer because they're more insular and controlled. These days, Aetolia has almost 100 players at peak and a good chunk of them nowadays are serious roleplayers, serious roleplayers in Aetolian Mordor. If you pour a lot of personal stakes into a game like Aetolia, you're going to feel those L's REALLY hard when they happen. And, like, I've been there, man. Why do you think I took a several-month break earlier this year?


    edit: heck here's the log from my convo with Fyrren regarding this thread. It's probably worth a read for anybody invested in this topic: https://ada-young.com/pastebin/Rk7QSCdI

    IazamatAlela
  • LimLim
    edited October 2021
    If you are uncomfortable posting it in public, then you do not make the allegations in public. Bring it to the admin, and let the Carnifex have the right to respond to it.

    The notion that you can make a baseless allegation in public that is both hurtful and damaging to a person/organisation, and hide behind 'being afraid' or 'being hurt' to avoid accountability for the accusation is, in my opinion, a disgusting one.

    So is the comparison to sexual assault.
    TetchtaIazamatMjollAlelaGalilei
  • I am going to echo the sentiment of the others here, the comparison to sexual assault is cheap and gross.

    And honestly there is a problem with Bloodloch. It is plainly obvious with the distribution in membership across the guilds. But I disagree that it is because the Carnifex 'bullied' everyone into joining. And while I have not been an Aetolian that long, I can say the Carnifex is the most active of the guilds and people are drawn to active guilds with dynamic leaders.

    But AGAIN if there is this vast amount of bullying going on ISSUE, that kind of behavior is handled better through that medium than dramatic call out posts.
    TetchtaMjollNipsyIesidAlmolAlelaLenorielGalilei
  • Rebra said:

    Shadow web after all, is a popular OOC hangout for newbies and new players and the shadow community at large, who are affected by the attitudes put forth.

    This is primarily what my 'agree' was in regards to. Spirit side doesn't necessarily have this problem as we don't constantly have a web going at all hours of the day, and I can think of only a handful of times where stuff has gotten semi-heated on Front Line (our OOC combat clan), but never to the extent of some of the logs of Shadow web that have been shared with me. Though, let me be clear, that wasn't any of the Carnifex in those logs. Some of the worst offenders were members of the Dominion, Spinesreach, and Teradrim. Unless I'm being directly pasted logs, I'm not privy to what goes on in Shadow web or clans (despite what @Araseth thinks), but this thread is a good exercise in taking a look at my own tether's orgs to make sure instances of this alleged bullying with power isn't happening. Ascendril may be low on the totem pole, and I've had at least one person ICly bring up concerns that Templar made up most of Enorian's Heralds (which has been 2/5 for the last 8 months I've been a Council Member) and I assuaged this person's concerns by reminding them that while the Illuminai don't have a seat on the Council, they are fully represented in the city and a fair amount of their members hold Ministry positions. I then asked this person if there were specific instances they could think of where the Templar didn't have the Illuminai's interests at heart, and they couldn't think of any; just that because the Illuminai don't have a 'voice' by not having a Herald seat meant that this issue COULD arise. But it hasn't. I can't really speak to Duiran, but it seems like the Sentinels are where the biggest bulk of people resides; even with the recent mass-exodus of members to the Shaman. All in all, I think we really try to nip this behavior in the bud on Spirit side; but I'm also not so naive to believe that disparaging comments towards guilds, orgs or people don't occur on Spirit side. We just tend to keep our seething hatred of other individuals isolated to private webs, clans and discord servers, so it may not seem as prevalent when compared side by side to Shadow comms.

    Also, uh, I don't think Rebra, anywhere, said this was being compared to sexual assault. Like, she didn't even use the word 'sexual'. She just said trauma, abuse, harassed; which, yes, COULD have sexual assault under that umbrella but that's not at all what I inferred from her statement. I took what she said as:

    People who feel wronged or like they're the victim of some type of trauma - no matter how real or imagined it is - may have a difficult time broaching that in a public forum or calling attention to it, because they're treated a particular way until they come up with receipts of the alleged behavior.

    Which is fine, I think, to expect proof of wrongdoing. I suppose I'm inclined to think there might be a little bit of truth in this huge post that Fyrren made, mainly because the playerbase can be real crappy sometimes - myself included. ESPECIALLY myself sometimes, like I can be just awful and it won't be until long after something's happened that I go "ah yeah, I suck". And I think maybe a forum post, however good the intentions were to shed light on a perceived problem, was probably the wrong way to go about this. I can't speak for @Mjoll, but I know if someone hopped into my DM's and talked to me one-on-one about a problem they had with the Templar or Enorian, I'd appreciate that more than waking up to a massive forum thread explaining why my org is bad and how I or my fellows allegedly made someone feel bad.

    However, my closing statement is that I don't think any of the Carnifex players go out of their way (intentionally or unintentionally) to make other PLAYERS miserable. And if you (general 'you') feel like they are, then that's something best discussed with them personally rather than a public forum post that puts the entire guild on blast, even with the disclaimer that it's 'not all of them'.


    Tell me how I'm doing!
    (Web): Mileta says, "Okay... Sry is an edgelord..."

    (Web): Dreww says, "Sryaen just wants to be the best Dhar boi and slaughter everyone."
    MjollTetchtaAeryxObaNipsyCallidoraEscelika
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited October 2021
    Sryaen said:


    Also, uh, I don't think Rebra, anywhere, said this was being compared to sexual assault. Like, she didn't even use the word 'sexual'. She just said trauma, abuse, harassed; which, yes, COULD have sexual assault under that umbrella but that's not at all what I inferred from her statement.

    When discussing things like victim blaming and the harm of erasing the experiences of victims because there isn't immediate evidence, it's about stakes that are tremendously higher than any of the things being discussed here. Assault, domestic abuse, sexual assault, stalking, etc etc. The reason victim blaming and "no proof no believe" is commonly criticized in these circumstances is because the stakes for ignoring someone are SO high. People die. People get traumatized for life.

    It is inappropriate to try and make a connection between that sort of circumstance where believing accusers is obviously of paramount importance because the consequences of not believing them are so high and the kind of things that are being said in this thread. People are correct to point that out. I can believe that that was not Rebra's intention, but it was the implication and the result of that line of reasoning (especially considering the added context of it being relevant in the healthcare profession), and it's not appropriate.

    SryaenGribbitIazamatLenorielAlelaGalilei
  • edited October 2021
    My responses here might be juvenile. I'm fine with that. I had just woken up, and after this doozy of a thread, this was not something anyone should have to read.



    We play characters on the mean, evil, bad guy side of the game. We are allies, it does not make us friends IC - both require RP and effort by both parties. It does not mean that you won't be bitten by someone on your own side of the game, especially in matters that the character considers important to themselves or their orgs.

    It's important for me to point out that I initially specifically crafted a character that was quiet, reasonable, and more likely to handle things privately in order to find a resolution, but BL and its orgs forced that character to become louder, more outspoken, and to drag other characters kicking and screaming into the sunlight just to reach a conclusion, because so much of BL wants to run and hide when they're confronted. It is a natural progression of RP spurred by the characters and situations around my own.

    The above DM makes it sound as if the way my character reacts on CT during IC stressful situations is the only way I play my character, but I know the person who DMed me has never actually RPed with my character to learn how reasonable they can be or why they might get bent out of shape by something like the Pillars weakening. Furthermore, this is not something I, or rather my character, do commonly. Anyone who actually pays attention to CT, who actually knows my character, knows better. It's frankly upsetting to have someone pretend they understand/know your character while not having any context and only being upset that you would challenge another character or org.

    As I've already said, we're allies, it doesn't mean we're friends, and if my character feels like you're neglecting your responsibilities or failing BL, he's going to be very clear about that - it's the character others have made him. BL has a severe issue where character who cannot handle the heat still decide to bring it, get rightfully targeted for it, and then instead of admitting their mistake, run, hide, and spread rumours both IC and OOC about characters and players. The IC aspect I can understand and, while frustrating, even respect. Hiding doesn't absolve you of consequences, however. Refusing to engage after the fact does not absolve you of consequences. When you put your character's energy out there, expect it to be met. When you are a prominent character or org who fails to put your energy out there, expect it to be met. Not being online doesn't make RP stop. A lot happens while I'm offline, because I do not play this game for escapism or 24/7 like so many players tend to do, and I often have to come in after the fact in RP.

    The OOC aspect of this behaviour, though, is the very same that spurred this thread in the first place and continually makes me question playing this game.

    Let me be crystal clear: YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE MY RP AS LONG AS I'M NOT BREAKING RULES. YOU GET TO REACT TO IT.

    If you cannot be bothered to RP with me to learn why my character might feel this way, ignore is right there. If it stresses you out, ignore is right there.

    I'm supremely and deeply uncomfortable and hurt between this post and this DM and will no longer be entertaining people who want to discuss my RP OOC. If you think I'm breaking the rules or being a bully, issue me. Full stop.

    Edit: And, frankly, criticizing my RP and implying things of me OOC without giving even a critical thought to others in the equation is disgusting. I'm exhausted by it. I am being gaslit, repeatedly, by players in this game exactly in the vein of this DM and I am really just... I don't know what to do at this point.
    MjollTetchtaNipsyAlelaGalileiEliadonValorieEscelikaTala
  • I was going to respond to this with the receipts of everything the Dominion and Teradrim did to the Carnifex when they were large and in charge that have caused the Carnifex players to choose this avenue of roleplay, but that wouldn't be productive or helpful and ultimately would only serve to make only me feel better.

    My DM's are always open Trance#3833 if you think you're being unfairly targeted or bullied or griefed by me or mine. I will hear your side and provide perspective.

    This is explicit permission for those of you I have ignored in game to DM me. Don't be surprised if I block you if you bring the same energy that caused the ignore.

    Not a single one of you has ever come to me or the admin(to my knowledge) about griefing of bullying, which are both against the rules, and something I would be happy to deal with.

    A public hit piece like this is wildly inappropriate and does nothing but engender bad feelings for all parties involved and those folk just looking in with a bucket of popcorn.

    Do better.
    Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
    BulrokIazamatGribbitTetchtaNipsyLenorielAlelaGalileiEscelika
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited October 2021
    arhourigan#9599 here. We have to share a server or be friends for you to DM me, so keep that in mind. I've said before and I'll say again that I never feel obliged to explain my character (Tetchta is very insular and layered and mystery is like 90% of what makes RP fun for me), but I'm always willing to explain my personal OOC perspective and why I made character choices. I'm even willing to apologize and try and rectify if I did something wrong. You do gotta consider that there's no guarantee that I'll agree that I did anything wrong and I might not apologize. But I'm still willing to talk.

    Same as Mjoll, though, my block finger is loose and trigger happy. One of my worst player interactions of all time (and then a couple others) were from OOC checkins about my character's actions, and I simply don't tolerate behavior that goes past a certain threshold, is abusive, or I perceive as manipulative.

    That said, if you have a problem and you want to discuss it, I'm almost always willing to take the time to do so, provided you are acting in good faith. I can say with absolute certainty that I'd prefer someone approach me asking about stuff like this instead of having to read threads like these.

    IazamatNipsyAlela
  • I accept Discord DMs about stuff if we share a server - I'm in the official one, so should be easy to find me. A lot of Mj's and Tet's caveats apply here, though: e.g. it's possible I may not agree with you, I may block you for being nasty, etc.
    (Web): Abhorash has joined your web.
    (Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
    (Web): Abhorash has left your web.



    Alela's Affirmations
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