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Re: Community Behaviour

i've no interest in the discussion about any particular person's moral alignment or whatever.

This is no different to similar requirements I've seen/experienced from other organisations.

i'm curious about this. as somebody who has been involved in writing or editing guild progression requirements at all levels for 3 guilds (indorani, sciomancers, illuminai), as well as having been in numerous guilds on both sides of the game, i've never seen a guild with a 'shrine destruction' requirement. other than requirements i've written, i can't say for certain that there's never been an *option* to destroy shrines as a progression task, but it has never been a requirement for progression.

furthermore, when i went on a little bit of a shrine burning rampage on my previous character - completely based on that character's RP - i was roundly shouted-down in the court of popular opinion that is """Seir's Delve Discord Server""" (or was it here in the forums? idk, idc enough to look it up) by members of both tethers. in fact, i think Toz was particularly disapproving. anyways, iirc, the objections to my instigation were something like: i didn't have an order or congregation affiliation at the time, which meant the targeted order couldn't retaliate in any meaningful way. the asymmetry of the conflict, on top of the irritation of having to replace shrines, was seen as very un-fun. ultimately, i relented, because my goal wasn't then and isn't now to be anything but fun (even if playing a """bad guy""").

with the above background in mind, my questions:

do these sorts of objections not still hold true in this scenario (guild vs order)? after all, the flip side of one individual with no order/congregation is many people with many affiliations attacking a single order in that the conflict is highly asymmetrical (altho it's a case of too many targets to reasonably retaliate against rather than none). if they don't, why not?

what other guilds currently have (or even have had any time since 2017, since that's when i started playing) a progression *requirement* to destroy shrines? this is maybe pure curiosity on my part, but i've never encountered it in aetolia. i can definitely see why certain guilds might want to have/make beef with gods - especially, let's be frank, two of enorian's guilds since no shadow guild really cares on an organizational level - but if the (largely mechanical) asymmetry issue i referenced is real, it seems like pk-oriented conflict is probably not the most fun way to do it.

i anticipate at least one answer to the first question is that the targeted order could attack the guild's patron's shrines. it seems to me like this muddies things a bit, though, since then that patron's order might reasonably get involved. the conflict becomes even more asymmetrical at that point (although, i suppose, not hugely-so, as most orders aren't very populous).

more curiosity - why were people in the templar guild reticent to target bamathis's shrines? on its face, selecting iosyne seems... well, it makes sense RPly, but given the relative inactivity of her order (especially compared to the warlord's), it looks either cowardly or calculated to make the requirement easier. i assume that's not why focusing on the warlord was ultimately reject, though, right? [[ETA: these are just the two options that immediately occurred to me - i'm not trying to passive-aggressively imply i really believe anything untoward was going on. i genuinely have no clue, and i've no reason to think literally anything is actually the case without some insight from those involved.]]

Hawa

Re: Community Behaviour

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I think the context of the situation has been pretty well established? The things he's excited about plotting about are pretty obviously the de facto war that was started. Curb stomping a nearly dead order and going on forums immediately after and being like YEAH BRO MAN PLOTTING BATTLES IS GREAT BRO is pretty unambiguous? I'm not really sure how to connect the dots any clearer than they have been already, unless you're just doing this to gaslight the obvious.

Zarni

Re: Community Behaviour

Tbh legit do not care about the IC/RP reasons. I did not have IC/RP reasons to stop shadow from being assholes or to not join in on their fun, I had a working moral compass and was raised in such a way that I felt obligated to sit out or speak out against people who may or may not have been ruining the game for other people, regardless of how small or large.

You could have changed the requirement or let people work it out individually. Changing the requirement is like the #1 thought that comes to my head when I ask myself 'how could this have all been avoided without running into the issues of one lone templar vs. all of Bamathis order?!'

Bulrok

Re: Community Behaviour

@Benedicto You boasted about planning battles with Stine and what that experience is. In a Love thread. Someone else critiqued it in the same thread in which it was posted. That's the link.

Re: Your story, my only issue with the IC reasons is that they seem to function as vehicles for sating your ooc justifications and ego. I don't mean that in a cruel way, I mean to observe where the other party is coming from and why there's this unresolved conflict you guys need to squash. This could be a singular event that doesn't fit the pattern Bulrock has established for the past year or two but it seems like either way that beef still like...exists and needs to be handled.

@Haven I think an IC solution to the problem is a great idea. I agree with not being able to get together. It creates a niceness pressure cooker.

Eydis

Re: Bashing Damage Numbers!

Syssin, 20 dex, level 3 hunt, red orb, red amulet, fangs of corrosion

2178 per bite / 2.79 = 780.64 dps

I'll also point out that refilling camus is a lot more than 'periodically'. For example, starting from a full cache of 1500 refills of camus and health, once I run through Lair, Illdon, Spiral, Tiyen, Xaanhal, Nal'jin, and Dome I'll have roughly 300 of camus left in my FC while I'll still have 1300 health.

Might be worthwhile for camus to be added directly to the class' skillset or to have bite replaced with some other dex-based attack for syssin bashing since no other class requires a consumable be used for every attack. Either way, I don't think anyone would reject a report like that.

Xavin

Re: Mirror classes

"Different, but equal" - the philosophy behind class balance, as I understand it - has not worked for Aetolia in some time (if ever). As an example, it didn't work for World of Warcraft, either, when Paladins and Shamans were unique to their respective factions. There is always a disparity and a perception that something is "better", which inevitably leads to negative feelings and increased levels of salt.

Firstaid is different, how can we make curing more equal? Combat strategies are different, how can we make strategies more equal? This idea about equality is often misrepresented. If everyone in the world received 1 million dollars and the majority of the people blew it - they'd still complain about inequality. Let's not attack @Keroc about him attempting to balance combat but rather why don't you deepen your understanding of your class and actually try being good. People write classleads to nerf classes that are bad at combat.

The inequality is people with a lack of combat understanding and lack of participation in combat actually having a voice in what is nerfed and what's not. Mirroring classes does not revolve around RP, but revolves around combat. And.... the people complaining about fighting Benedicto or Fezzix simply aren't on their level of skill when it comes to combat. It's not the classes they're using, they're just better than you. So in order for you to protect your pride you feel it's better to try to nerf the class rather than step your game up.

Actually, I have a question. What are the classes that everyone considers OP in Aetolia. List it from the most OP to most underserved. Then find the best combatants within those classes and have them fight one another. If the lesser OP class can beat the other then the idea that the class itself is dominant is null and void.

Having every class will not fix your balance problems nor will it make you feel better about your performance. If you're bad work to get better. Put the time in to improve.

Jhin

Re: LOVE

It would be nice if it wasn't off plane. What's the point of the gem nerf when suddenly half of Duiran disappears off of CWHO and apparently can't see channels on Prime?

Serrice

Re: Mirror classes

Tiur said:

I just don't see the same arguments happening that "Templar is OP in the meta rn" when mirror Templar would be exactly as OP.

I still think the salt won't go away with just this change. You'll just be switching sea salt for table salt.

As for the points on mirror flavor, is there a chance you can give a teaser of a design when one's mostly done? Aside from the mechanical concerns already discussed, I'd be interested to see if a reskin can be made to feel as fresh and fun, RP-wise, as the original. It just seems like a lot of the classes' lores fit their mechanics quite well (and vice versa), and a reskin in those cases has its work cut out for it.

Seurimas

Re: Mirror classes

I think there were two separate but related points being made: organizations (guilds, cities, and tethers) benefit from mobility encouraged by the uniqueness of their classes; and the continued existence of salt alongside this modern mobility demonstrates the limits of giving everyone the same toys to solve salty players leaving the game.

To the first point, we would indeed likely see a change in how people move between organizations. That would probably be a good thing, though. People would play the class they want to play, while still playing with the people they want to play with and the roles they want to play as.

I've made my feelings on the second point, the inevitability of salt, pretty clear, so I won't continue beating that drum.

Edit: I'm perfectly on topic, go away

Seurimas

Re: Mirror classes

There's no plan for boring reskins.
They won't be the end of balance problems, but they will be the end of tethered salt. If a combo is OP, both sides have it, both sides can put up a classlead to deal with it.

Tethered Salt is good! Don't let individuals that take things personally ruin it for others. It's a game and you're suppose to have fun.

I am saying, the literal, most common complaint of a leaving player is " has been nerfed too much." or " has been buffed too much." Not divine attention, not RP.

I'm curious to know the average number of years the quitting players have been apart of Aetolia. As of recent I've seen a boost in player activity, so something is working right. It would seem to me someone who would quit because someone has been nerfed or buffed already has quitting in their DNA.

Why not just change classleads to only be allowed to make comments on opposite tether classes a handful of times per year. So you better be very thoughtful about whatever you're proposing. I think a real problem with classleads are how lazy people are with their reports. It's more "Oh, I don't like that." = Classlead. This is why the liaison system in my opinion was more effective.

Not everyone should be making opinions on combat. Someone in the realms nerfed Zealot from a classlead and this person never fights. So they don't have a broad combat perspective, but, because they had a bad experience fighting Zealot, their solution is to complain and classlead.

Why not allow classleads after a certain number of kills and/or deaths. I think a better solution is that classleads is not for everyone. Allow people to comment on general skills, but, in order to make classleads on guild skills you have to maintain a certain combat activity via sect, lessers, ooc etc.

I think the bulk of the reports comes from people asking others to classlead certain items too. If classleads were based on combat activity it would also reduce the bulk of the reports and people would be more thoughtful about what they submit.

Jhin