Mirror classes

1356789

Comments

  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Tiur said:

    I agree that it feels like it's better, but the #1 response I've been given when polling players who quit is some perceived bias in tethers, most often combat related. Keroc adjusts one tether or class, and it's assumed it was meant to damage the tether instead of keeping the meta interesting. Mirror classes eliminate that claim entirely. I just don't see a better solution.

    @Tiur I see your point. You know honestly, sometimes there is no solution. I think tethers disagreeing with each other is natural discourse between opposing sides. I do think that it could be handled in a better way OOC-wise. But I don't think that's the problem of the system, more so the problem of individuals. Even if there were to be mirrored classes - I think new problems would simply come to fruition. My only hope is that it doesn't effect the realms as a whole. This is a huge change and sometimes people don't know what's best for them. The same people polling could be the first ones to leave after changes are made. I like having sides and each side having unique abilities - regardless of how strong i may feel the other side is vice versa. Competition and a little bit of envy for the other side is healthy in my opinion.
    AeryxIazamatMjollBulrokVahn
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Koda said:

    "If all classes are mirrored you take away the element of trying something new, which is a good feeling for anyone that has switched tethers in the past."

    As somebody who in their early years of playing developed quite a side-hopping reputation because "Ooo shiny new class" temptation grew overwhelming, I'd like to note there's definitely a chunk of the playerbase that would be impacted in the opposite way - no need to swap sides and invent RP as an excuse just to play a class that's currently locked behind another tether if you're simply looking for a bit of a mechanical change to your abilities.

    That said, I also think that the original clarification that these can be entirely different may have been missed there a bit. Shadow Luminaries aren't just going to summon an angel with horns and use a glowing black and red mace, and Spirit Indorani aren't going to summon the rejected entities that were too nice to make it on the Chaos Plane. The way I read it, these are going to look entirely different with very different themes, but simply have the same mechanical effects; Indorani can throw a hangedman tarot at somebody to bind them, Spirit Indorani could ensnare somebody in magical chains or something. Totally different ways of doing it aesthetically and from a roleplay perspective, but same mechanical effect in the end.

    I agree that the admin will be able to make the mirrored classes make sense from an RP perspective. I'm just addressing the watering down of the uniqueness of tethers through everyone having access to every class. I don't think that will have a long time positive effect on the realms. I think efforts can be better put into the development of new and unique classes for each tether or even non-tether. I personally enjoy the uniqueness and creativeness of each class. I visualize @Keroc having a super master system that can beat anyone with any class. I think people should focus more on their individual skills. The thought behind even mirroring classes derives from the combat community. I think people have a lot of opinions without putting in the practice. To be fair both Fezzix, Benedicto and many others have dedicated years into their systems. And in my personal opinion, the key to most peoples combat failures do not lay in their offense but it's their defense. Your firstaid needs to be better developed to handle different classes and affliction strategies. The new classlead system was a surprise to me because before only Liaisons (combat leaders of classes) would take suggestions from their communities and bring them to the admin. I think the classlead system being so public is an issue because people that have not dedicated time to perfecting a class complain all the time. This is one of the core problems with multi-classing because if you notice Fezzix only fights Syssin, that's it. While others pick 5 different classes and cycle through them. Winning in combat is not about randomly selecting classes that you think can beat others. It's about taking pride in your craft and kicking behind. Honestly there are things that I haven't even added to my Zealot combat that would make it 5 times better. So until I put that work into the class and test it, I don't have any suggestions about improvements etc.
    MjollBulrokIazamatOonaghAeryx
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Bulrok said:

    Having the option to use X doesn't mean X is going to be used. If we were all going to jump ship to the opposite tethers class that we thought was most OP when this change happened, then we would already be rolling 10 deep of the most OP class there is on our own side. Instead you see a variety of things. Introducing even more options does not mean that everyone is going to just end up being the same, we're not even the same now with limited options. Hell, monk is available to literally everyone and you'd be hard pressed to find a skilled combatant who would disagree that they are SSSSSSSSS Tier for group combat, yet how many do you see on Shadow? People are going to play what they want to play and nothing else.


    There's some sort of primal fear of change that plagues Aetolians. It happens with almost every change even talked about, and whenever the change makes it, it's never even close to as bad as all the doomsday preaching that heralded it.

    I respectfully disagree with the beginning of your statement. Not everyone would jump ship only for the sake of a powerful class, because of the relationships and community you've built. These are the exact reasons why people fight to make their classes better, because they don't care to switch tethers. This competition is healthy.
    LinAeryx
  • IazamatIazamat Member Posts: 275 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    The only problem with everyone having access to everything prior to the tether lockdown was that certain charaters/orgs were less flexible with their RP than others, which led to some people feeling left out (Spirit, mostly, as it is difficult to justify a class like Indorani or Carnifex over there). Mechanically, it was otherwise a complete non-issue for the game and its health as a whole. This change will make it so that the mirror classes are themed properly for their respective tether and no org/tether as a whole has to make a call on whether to abandon RP for mechanical strength or lose people. Pretending that competition (healthy or otherwise), envy, or conflict will go by the wayside because of mirror classes is hugely disingenuous and, frankly, a rather bogus notion. Healthy competition and conflict (or lack thereof) definitely don't (and shouldn't) stem from class asymmetry.

    However, if you're worried that you're going to see mass migration from one's tether with the advent of mirror classes, let this be a moment for introspection. Ask yourself (and those migrating or hoping to migrate) why they would leave, what can be done to prevent them leaving now or in the future, and how the tether can be improved as a whole. We have some time before the first mirror classes will be rolled out, so I hope people start looking more at how it will improve the game for everyone around them rather than continuing to make bogus claims about how it will hurt the game as a whole.
    Oonagh
  • BulrokBulrok Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    You're uh. I uh think that we're uh. In agreement..then..? Or are you saying they would..?

    Edit: @Zynti
    ShAmAn'S aRe UsEleSs In GrOuPs
    Drystin
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,056 admin
    I like asymmetrical games too, but those usually have a win condition, no attempt at balance, or a swap-mechanic. I loved Netrunner, but by forcing you to play both sides, it didn't matter that it was assymetrical.

    I am not theorycrafting. I am saying, the literal, most common complaint of a leaving player is " has been nerfed too much." or " has been buffed too much." Not divine attention, not RP.
    Drystin
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Bulrok said:

    You're uh. I uh think that we're uh. In agreement..then..? Or are you saying they would..?

    Edit: @Zynti

    My opinion is that I think mirror class should not exist.
    Mjoll
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Iazamat said:

    The only problem with everyone having access to everything prior to the tether lockdown was that certain charaters/orgs were less flexible with their RP than others, which led to some people feeling left out (Spirit, mostly, as it is difficult to justify a class like Indorani or Carnifex over there). Mechanically, it was otherwise a complete non-issue for the game and its health as a whole. This change will make it so that the mirror classes are themed properly for their respective tether and no org/tether as a whole has to make a call on whether to abandon RP for mechanical strength or lose people. Pretending that competition (healthy or otherwise), envy, or conflict will go by the wayside because of mirror classes is hugely disingenuous and, frankly, a rather bogus notion. Healthy competition and conflict (or lack thereof) definitely don't (and shouldn't) stem from class asymmetry.

    However, if you're worried that you're going to see mass migration from one's tether with the advent of mirror classes, let this be a moment for introspection. Ask yourself (and those migrating or hoping to migrate) why they would leave, what can be done to prevent them leaving now or in the future, and how the tether can be improved as a whole. We have some time before the first mirror classes will be rolled out, so I hope people start looking more at how it will improve the game for everyone around them rather than continuing to make bogus claims about how it will hurt the game as a whole.

    I don't think conflict will go by the wayside. I just think it's cheesy for everyone to have the same classes regardless of tether.
    MjollAeryx
  • IazamatIazamat Member Posts: 275 ✭✭✭✭
    Zynti said:

    I don't think conflict will go by the wayside. I just think it's cheesy for everyone to have the same classes regardless of tether.

    I think you'll find you're in an extreme minority regarding that.
    OonaghSeurimasAeryx
  • BruinBruin Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Not knowing the extent of how closely the skill has to mirror the other in terms of environment, is the plan to keep the Shaman mirror class' mirror to groves in a forest room, or will different flavor extend to the environment itself?
    Banner of the Guardians of Dendara
    Bruin and his pet squirrel, Kaly Bruin Bunny Sticker
    "Chibi Bruin" "Easter Bun Bruin"
    By: Konnorn By: Phoenecia
  • BulrokBulrok Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    I think having the same thing available to everyone is pretty standard in just about every serious thing in competition. The SEC not being allowed to have a specials team while the Big 12 could only play special teams is a pretty whack idea. The more this conversation continues the stronger I believe we need mirror classes. A level playing field is optimal for fun and engaging competition. 
    ShAmAn'S aRe UsEleSs In GrOuPs
    Oonagh
  • SeurimasSeurimas Member Posts: 113 ✭✭✭
    Tiur said:
    Netrunner

    I am saying, the literal, most common complaint of a leaving player is " has been nerfed too much." or " has been buffed too much." Not divine attention, not RP.
    Is this actually going to help, though? You're still going to be balancing over time, so everyone's favorite classes are going to get nerfed at some point, and the other side's star fighters' classes is going to get buffed at some point. Not everyone can agree even within their own tether that one class or another is the best or what the proper balancing would be for their own classes.

    Maybe you're seeing a trend more clearly than the players, but I'm increasingly skeptical that the problem you're trying to solve is even the right problem. Even if you eliminate the tether balance concern, people will still suffer setbacks and get salty and blame whatever is most convenient in that moment. Trusting disgruntled customers to give you a fully accurate account of why they've left might be a bad idea in general. If anything, you might just get more complaints about each particular class because now the entire game has to fight them, instead of half the game fighting alongside them.

    Also, I loved Netrunner, but it's a perfect example of the central problem: there were still major balance complaints, even though every competitive player had access to the exact same cards. Even when you have perfect mobility to different corporations and different runners, the problem remains. Contrast that situation with Aetolia, where you don't even have that mobility, because learning a new class is a huge credit investment. People are individually still locked into their supposedly weaker classes.

    I feel like you're trading in "I hate this game because Keroc loves Spirit more" for "I hate this game because Keroc hates Ascendril specifically", and I just don't think that's the kind of progress you're hoping for.
    AeryxHaven
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Depending on how mirror classes end up getting reskinned, uh... You probably will end up seeing some migration between tethers. And I'll be frank, Shadow side stands to benefit from it most. Seriously. How many people love Templar, or Sentinel, or Zealot, but the fact that you can't have those classes Shadow side kind of factors into the decision to not side hop. I mean, if you're worried about people sides, you probably have good reason to worry, but it also means you know there's problems with certain orgs. It's definitely going to encourage people to play where they want to play, and play where it's most enjoyable, so without tether restrictions on class, thematics are going to matter more.

    Which kind of brings me to my main concern/want regarding mirror classes: please don't do the reskins as 'X class, but uses Shadow/Spirit!' No, seriously. It'd super lazy and super lame, and I think the game deserves mirror reskins that are more nuanced.

    Spirit side Carnifex? How about instead of making them too much like the Templars and style them up as Barbarians from the Tareas that make use of spirits? Or, you know, a sect of Inquisitors that still make use of souls in the name of the Light because that's still kind of badass. Shadow Sentinels? Make em like Predators that find thrill in hunting all game, even people; the Wilds are a tool, and they hunt for sport and trophies rather than protection of anything. I could go on.
    Drystin
  • CzciborCzcibor Member Posts: 149 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I do agree that it's objectively more "fair" to just give them to everyone, but again that is under the assumption that everyone actually has equal access to them (which they don't). I just still see a huge balancing nightmare ahead of us, and given that this is being done to try to reduce that I think this will fail in that regard. It's frankly a very lazy response to any balance concerns because the default argument will always be "well you have access to it too". I've already heard similar whenever I've complained about syssin damage being too high, and I'm sure people have used the same argument when they've complained about monk.

    I actually think for the most part things are fairly balanced and as long as there aren't outliers that make PK unenjoyable it's ok to have some perceived imbalances. In fact, this will always exist anyway. So in this regard, mirror classes don't really solve the real problem, which is threefold; these perceived imbalances are seen to be too big, class mobility is mostly limited by how big your wallet is, and changes can often come much too slowly. This is not really going to change without tethered classes, because a large part of the problem is that most people actually just can't afford to learn a new class that is considered OP, or even just to move away from their class when a round of changes makes them very weak.

    Also the complaint I had and many people I talked to about also shared about the last round of classleads wasn't necessarily the decisions themselves, but the reasoning given. They were wildly inconsistent, with some being approved/rejected based on voting and others seemingly not. The reasoning used for some decisions didn't make sense without other changes that players may feel they'll have to fight for again in the next classlead cycle. There were also decisions with reasons given that were completely contradictory to the reasons given in other decisions. To be perfectly honest, a lot of it just seemed like there was no coherent plan and was just done on a whim.

    Overall, I'm not actually against mirror classes. I just don't think they're going to be the be-all-end-all solution to the problems you think they will be, and they're also going to bring new problems with them.
    Post edited by Czcibor on
    SeurimasAeryx
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Iazamat said:

    Zynti said:

    I don't think conflict will go by the wayside. I just think it's cheesy for everyone to have the same classes regardless of tether.

    I think you'll find you're in an extreme minority regarding that.
    Yes, I don't subject myself to group think. The majority isn't always right. Plus I've been around for a while so I've seen a lot of changes over the years, and as @Czcibor just mentioned in his last comment, I don't think it's going to solve anything. Differences are okay and it's healthy - it's reality.
    SeurimasAeryxDrystinIazamat
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,056 admin
    There's no plan for boring reskins.

    The whole point is that change in class X means the same change in mirror class X. So people cannot try to snipe sides or nerf an enemy; they'd be nerfing their mirror of that enemy too. I just don't see the same arguments happening that "Templar is OP in the meta rn" when mirror Templar would be exactly as OP.

    The only thing that needs mirroring is the base core of the skill. If it uses EQ, requires the target to not be blind, and does INT damage, the mirror will be exactly that. It's just the look that can be WILDLY different.

    They won't be the end of balance problems, but they will be the end of tethered salt. If a combo is OP, both sides have it, both sides can put up a classlead to deal with it.
    DrystinIazamatKoda
  • SeurimasSeurimas Member Posts: 113 ✭✭✭
    Tiur said:
    I just don't see the same arguments happening that "Templar is OP in the meta rn" when mirror Templar would be exactly as OP.
    I still think the salt won't go away with just this change. You'll just be switching sea salt for table salt.

    As for the points on mirror flavor, is there a chance you can give a teaser of a design when one's mostly done? Aside from the mechanical concerns already discussed, I'd be interested to see if a reskin can be made to feel as fresh and fun, RP-wise, as the original. It just seems like a lot of the classes' lores fit their mechanics quite well (and vice versa), and a reskin in those cases has its work cut out for it.
    JhinIazamat
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Tiur said:

    There's no plan for boring reskins.
    They won't be the end of balance problems, but they will be the end of tethered salt. If a combo is OP, both sides have it, both sides can put up a classlead to deal with it.

    Tethered Salt is good! Don't let individuals that take things personally ruin it for others. It's a game and you're suppose to have fun.
    Tiur said:


    I am saying, the literal, most common complaint of a leaving player is " has been nerfed too much." or " has been buffed too much." Not divine attention, not RP.

    I'm curious to know the average number of years the quitting players have been apart of Aetolia. As of recent I've seen a boost in player activity, so something is working right. It would seem to me someone who would quit because someone has been nerfed or buffed already has quitting in their DNA.

    Why not just change classleads to only be allowed to make comments on opposite tether classes a handful of times per year. So you better be very thoughtful about whatever you're proposing. I think a real problem with classleads are how lazy people are with their reports. It's more "Oh, I don't like that." = Classlead. This is why the liaison system in my opinion was more effective.

    Not everyone should be making opinions on combat. Someone in the realms nerfed Zealot from a classlead and this person never fights. So they don't have a broad combat perspective, but, because they had a bad experience fighting Zealot, their solution is to complain and classlead.

    Why not allow classleads after a certain number of kills and/or deaths. I think a better solution is that classleads is not for everyone. Allow people to comment on general skills, but, in order to make classleads on guild skills you have to maintain a certain combat activity via sect, lessers, ooc etc.

    I think the bulk of the reports comes from people asking others to classlead certain items too. If classleads were based on combat activity it would also reduce the bulk of the reports and people would be more thoughtful about what they submit.
    HammarIazamatRhyotMjoll
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Zynti said:

    I think overtime if everyone had every class then I could see people leaving tethers purely because of politics and not because of the desire to try something new.

    I see this as a positive, not a negative.
    Zynti said:

    Not everyone would jump ship only for the sake of a powerful class, because of the relationships and community you've built. These are the exact reasons why people fight to make their classes better, because they don't care to switch tethers. This competition is healthy.

    You're contradicting yourself. People would leave tethers purely because of politics and not over trying new classes, but they've built a community where they are, so they won't jump ship?

    Your metric for "healthy competition" is based on the fact that the tethers aren't balanced, so people constantly fight to make their own classes stronger. Why not just make everything equitable so that nobody can use tether balance or class accessibility as an excuse? I see nothing "healthy" in our system as it stands. Class combat balance will benefit under a mirrored system, because people will be able to experiment with everything on an even field. The mechanics will be available in their entirety, and the superior team will win. This is my definition of healthy competition.
    VahnRhineHawa
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Fezzix said:


    You're contradicting yourself. People would leave tethers purely because of politics and not over trying new classes, but they've built a community where they are, so they won't jump ship?

    I'll address your misunderstanding of context momentarily. At this time I have a few things to take care of.
    HawaTekiasIazamatMjoll
  • SeurimasSeurimas Member Posts: 113 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I think there were two separate but related points being made: organizations (guilds, cities, and tethers) benefit from mobility encouraged by the uniqueness of their classes; and the continued existence of salt alongside this modern mobility demonstrates the limits of giving everyone the same toys to solve salty players leaving the game.

    To the first point, we would indeed likely see a change in how people move between organizations. That would probably be a good thing, though. People would play the class they want to play, while still playing with the people they want to play with and the roles they want to play as.

    I've made my feelings on the second point, the inevitability of salt, pretty clear, so I won't continue beating that drum.

    Edit: I'm perfectly on topic, go away
    StineIazamatAeryxJhin
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭
    Seurimas said:

    I think there were two separate but related points being made: organizations (guilds, cities, and tethers) benefit from mobility encouraged by the uniqueness of their classes
    And yet everyone has access to the syssin class, and the guild's doing pretty well right now regardless.

  • SeurimasSeurimas Member Posts: 113 ✭✭✭
    Fezzix said:
    I think there were two separate but related points being made: organizations (guilds, cities, and tethers) benefit from mobility encouraged by the uniqueness of their classes
    And yet everyone has access to the syssin class, and the guild's doing pretty well right now regardless.
    Not every guild is as cool as the Syssin, though 😎 I don't have a serious comment on that, because it's not a bad point.

    However, there's tons of Spirit Syssin while Shadow Monks are hard to come by. If we hold up untethered classes today as an example of mirrored classes tomorrow, we can see how demographics could keep tether balance concerns alive. I know plenty of folks on the Shadow side complain about Monks, even if it doesn't raise to the level of salt. When we introduce mirror classes, there will still be a gap, as players move to newly available mirrors and learn the ropes. In the end, hopefully things even out, but it'll still come down a little bit to demographics, how people play the classes on each side, and who uses them best.
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm inclined to agree with Seurimas in regards to this change not solving what people think it will solve. We really are trading one salt for another. That said, overall, I still believe the change will provide players better options with what to do with their characters than they have now. Is this good for the game? Simply put, yes*. Nothing is being taken away here, only added. If you want to go and RP from the other side, the option will still be available to you.

    If the mirror classes are going to be attached to a guild in a similar style to the Illuminai, the admin should be mindful of the current guild structures and cultures in place when creating these themes. To Zynti's credit, there is a valid concern of dilution if this change is rolled out poorly. Not only must the themes be completely new and different but you also must not encroach on the schtick of another guild of the same tether. All this is to say that while the change is good overall, execution matters.

    Is this what the game needs -now/next-? I'm inclined to think not due to the other glaring issues this game faces. At the very least that's debatable but a whole different can of worms that should probably be reserved for another topic.

    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Seurimas
  • BulrokBulrok Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    I don't think anyone has actually said it will remove the salt. I think it will lessen it, or shift it, which is also what everyone else said. 

    Fact of life: Salt will exist where gaming exists.
    ShAmAn'S aRe UsEleSs In GrOuPs
    HavenSeurimas
  • JhinJhin Member Posts: 26
    Iazamat said:

    "Different, but equal" - the philosophy behind class balance, as I understand it - has not worked for Aetolia in some time (if ever). As an example, it didn't work for World of Warcraft, either, when Paladins and Shamans were unique to their respective factions. There is always a disparity and a perception that something is "better", which inevitably leads to negative feelings and increased levels of salt.

    Firstaid is different, how can we make curing more equal? Combat strategies are different, how can we make strategies more equal? This idea about equality is often misrepresented. If everyone in the world received 1 million dollars and the majority of the people blew it - they'd still complain about inequality. Let's not attack @Keroc about him attempting to balance combat but rather why don't you deepen your understanding of your class and actually try being good. People write classleads to nerf classes that are bad at combat.

    The inequality is people with a lack of combat understanding and lack of participation in combat actually having a voice in what is nerfed and what's not. Mirroring classes does not revolve around RP, but revolves around combat. And.... the people complaining about fighting Benedicto or Fezzix simply aren't on their level of skill when it comes to combat. It's not the classes they're using, they're just better than you. So in order for you to protect your pride you feel it's better to try to nerf the class rather than step your game up.

    Actually, I have a question. What are the classes that everyone considers OP in Aetolia. List it from the most OP to most underserved. Then find the best combatants within those classes and have them fight one another. If the lesser OP class can beat the other then the idea that the class itself is dominant is null and void.

    Having every class will not fix your balance problems nor will it make you feel better about your performance. If you're bad work to get better. Put the time in to improve.
    Iazamat
Sign In or Register to comment.