Mafia: The Return of Ashtan

Meskhenet

I am more or less in agreement with Aren. Llok strikes a bad chord with me, it all just seems a bit too forced, and not genuine in their intentions.

Therefore, I shall vote.

Vote: Llok

Demarcus

After what I've gone over for new information, as well as reaching into past games, there's one particular person that is giving me a nagging feeling that something isn't right.

Aryanne.

Her first post was one that would give her the guise that she is not one of the Polemarch's minions:
"Just to be clear, do we have four Marzpawns AND one Polemarch (five baddies), or do the Marzpawns INCLUDE the Polemarch (four baddies)? The description makes it sound like the former, but I wanted to be sure I'm understanding totally."

Then, she goes ahead and has a post alluding to all sorts of reverse psychology and imitation:
"That said: Thinking back to day one of our last game, the VAMPS were the ones touting "No Lynch is our downfall" the hardest, while, it was mainly citizens who were touting "NO LYNCH IS BEST!""

So I ask myself: Why would you bother to post a question that would presumably clear you as a townie (since the answer would be blatantly obvious to a Marzpawn/Polemarch, though I can see how someone might not completely understand it based on what was written) when you could just PM Aldric and have him clear it up for you?

Either it is 1) A subtle attempt to blend in as a townie or 2) Not a very good move to give that strong impression you're a townie. If I understand the meta correctly, confirmed townies are bad for the mafia for the simple fact that even if it came down to a random vote, 4/15 > 4/16 for a probability of nabbing a baddie randomly.

Omei, however, seems to believe that Aryanne is probably a townie. So I'm torn. Just wanted to bring this up for discussion. 

Omei

As regards Llok: No. I don't think that's right. I really don't.

Llok may be behaving rather strangely, but it isn't the kind of strange I typically associate with scum. It's too obvious, and a style of play that makes people want to lynch you is not optimal scum play.

Instead, let's look at the people that suggested a train on him - Aren and Meskhenet. Both members of last round's bandwagon. Both quiet.

Might be interesting to hear what they have to say if we focus on them for a bit.

EDIT: Demarcus... That's actually a very good point, but easily explained away by Aryanne simply wanting to ask it in public so that the answer was readily apparent to everyone. Helpfulness, you know?

Demarcus

Being helpful is great and all, but this occured to me because I had a really stupid question that I just didn't know the answer to but didn't want to ask it in public for the very same reasons above. The fact that she had brought up an example of how the Vampires in the last game were trying to hide out in the first round just made her question rather... suspicious to me.

Also, a thought about Llok: IF he has played and won more games than any of us like he has claimed, maybe he has perfected this whole "Go so far over the top obnoxious so people want to lynch me but think twice because it is so far over the top!" strategy and thats how he wins? All I know is I want to lynch him not because I think he's scum, just so he won't post anymore.

Meskhenet

I have always been one who keeps quiet until I have to speak, or wish to. But you would perhaps not know this, Omei. 

Not only does Llok just not sit right with me, but nothing bothers me more than needless chatter, just for the sake of talking. Say what you need to, or don't speak.

Aren

Hey, I said my piece about Llok just as anyone else would. Some people may think him innocent, others not so much and I'm on the not so much side unless I get some proof.

Aryanne

@Demarcus: I asked on the forum, because it honestly didn't occur to me that asking in a PM was acceptable. Also, I figured the rationale as is given by teachers everywhere: if you have a question, you're probably not the only one, so ask publicly for sake of informing everyone when an answer is given. (although, apparently I might have been the only one who didn't understand from the game explanation...)

Re second quote: I was trying to explain (however crappily done) that I think Llok is innocent. He's just tooooo over the top for me to think he's trying to be strategic in any reasonable way

At the moment, I am kinda inclined to just call out with VOTEing, as it has been so very argued for as a good way to get people to speak up... SO!

VOTE: PIPER.

You were quiet except to hop on the train, and of the train-goers, you struck me as pretty tingly-spidey-bad senses.

EXPLAIN YOURSELF

(Also - I'm with Omei on the "reasonable odds to assume innocence", the chances of a random lucky guess by both Pole AND Bear seem pretty darn slim.)

Demarcus

Aryanne said:

@Demarcus: I asked on the forum, because it honestly didn't occur to me that asking in a PM was acceptable. Also, I figured the rationale as is given by teachers everywhere: if you have a question, you're probably not the only one, so ask publicly for sake of informing everyone when an answer is given. (although, apparently I might have been the only one who didn't understand from the game explanation...)

Re second quote: I was trying to explain (however crappily done) that I think Llok is innocent. He's just tooooo over the top for me to think he's trying to be strategic in any reasonable way

At the moment, I am kinda inclined to just call out with VOTEing, as it has been so very argued for as a good way to get people to speak up... SO!

VOTE: PIPER.

You were quiet except to hop on the train, and of the train-goers, you struck me as pretty tingly-spidey-bad senses.

EXPLAIN YOURSELF

(Also - I'm with Omei on the "reasonable odds to assume innocence", the chances of a random lucky guess by both Pole AND Bear seem pretty darn slim.)

Hey, fair enough @Aryanne I just wanted to bring up my observations. I'm leaning towards Meskhenet right now. "Not sitting right" without a whole lot of actual substance brought to the discussion is a good way to get people to try and thing someone is one of the baddies when they are all but confirmed as a townie. I've already stated that confirmed townies are bad for the Drekathi, so starting the Llok train and then when he turns up innocent having the defense of  "He didn't sit right" leads people to believe that you were acting with good intentions when you're not.

Since you're one who stays quiet until you have to speak, now would be a good time to offer some substance to back up your accusation.

Minarael

Piper -has- been awfully quiet. And I don't hear any zoo excuses. 

Though I definitely agree with Llok being suspicious. He has been pretty loudly proclaiming his experience with the game. Sometimes the easiest way to hide is to do the thing least expected. Since another experienced player is leading the charge, so to speak (Omei), then Llok can reasonably assume Omei would defend his oddity as such. 

I don't know that Meskhenet has done enough to warrant real suspicion at this point. 

Aryanne also claimed to be fairly experienced at this game. Saying, "It didn't occur to me that I could PM" is odd. I would have figured it would be acceptable to ask a clarifying question in PMs and this is my first game. 

Omei

It was a difference of mentality, as regards Aryanne. She simply thought asking publicly would be more useful, a stance with which I am inclined to agree. Thus, I'm willing to trust her for now.

Still think Llok is town. If you want to lynch him, that's up to you, but that's my personal perspective on his antics.

Meskhenet's reasoning is very shaky, and she was part of the round one bandwagon. That's suspicious, but not enough so at this point to justify a train against her.

I'm interested in what Aren has to say that casts Llok's actions as part of some elaborate scum gambit ('making the game want to lynch you' is not ideal in terms of tactics). The rationale thus far has been unsatisfactory.

Minarael

I'm not ready to lynch anyone yet. I have quite a few suspicions but I think we will benefit from a bit more discussion before rushing someone. 

Aryanne said first that her rationale was because she didn't realize she -could- PM, then added that she was trying to be helpful. It can't be both. If you are trying to be helpful that implies you have option A and option B. To PM and keep the question between herself and Alric, or to share so others who are confused might also know the answer. That's pretty dang suspicious to me. She's too experienced to -not- think a clarifying question to the game leader would be acceptable. At worst, he'd tell her to share the question on the forums. She tacked on that other bit after someone else had already raised that explanation for her. 

And she's now trying to jump on someone for very shaky reasons. 

Aryanne

@minarael

 - I never said I was "experienced" at the game. I said I'd played one round of it (last round). While I didn't mention it, the only other time I played was several years ago. I've never had a power role, so I really never have had a reason to PM the GM.  I figured "don't PM the GM unless you're ordering your powers activation" was a given in order to avoid overwhelming the poor guy with questions. My follow up point was more that "instead of just holding my hands in my lap and waiting until someone said something that confirmed or denied what I thought to be the case, or I found someone else playing on Skype, I figured I'd speak up and just ask publically for the benefit of everyone"

And yeah, the pin on @piper isn't particularly backed than any of the other train-hoppers. I'm not sure what it is, but something about her phrasing just doesn't sit right with me. If a train suddenly formed on her for my flimsy reasoning, I'd pull my vote, but there doesn't seem to be a better way to get a quiet person talking other than pointing your finger at them and threatening.

Minarael

You said, "I always hate nolynch on the first day." That's a -really odd comment- for someone who has only played one other game. 

I was all set to buy into your explanation, but now you are ringing too many bells. You were also asking us to be hesitant to trust our only confirmed Townie, Omei. Telling us to be slow to lynch but now you yourself are pointing fingers for a train. That combined with the holes in your explanations, I feel strongly enough to lynch you.

Vote: Aryanne

Omei

I actually see that logic, Minarael, and I am willing to buy it. Aryanne seemed very helpful and cautious to be, but it doesn't strike me as unreasonable that all of this was a gambit to distance the town from my explanations. Finger of suspicion still angled at Meskhenet, Aren, and Piper, but Aryanne's especially shaky. Demarcus - Minarael - you've sold me.

Vote: Aryanne

Macavity

VOTE: Aryanne

Aldric

@Demarcus: Just for clarification, were you voting for Aryanne, or was the green-colored text there just for emphasis?

Toz

Uhh. Hopefully this round is not over before I wake up - need sleep, but want to re-read all this to develop some thoughts for myself before voting. As an...entirely random aside (certainly not vouching for her beyond this, she's a shifty sort) - Periluna was at the zoo. Unless she lied to me on skype a RL day or two in advance to set up the perfect alibi for remaining quiet, in which case I will probably drive to her house and pout outside.

EDIT: And while I'm thinking about it/plotting to find it, mostly to remind myself as well - there was a game played on the old forums where a mafia guy ran the whole game by being super aggressive/active, pointing fingers all over the place. He was safe because he was so over-the-top, and when the scum won and the roles were revealed, nobody could quite believe it. ...Unless I'm hallucinating the entire ordeal, which is possible. I'll look for it later.

Teani

I agree with Toz, need some time to read through this tonight. I don't want to just jump on a bandwagon this time. As most of you know ( I hope) I'm working abroad with random and short internet access and next to no sleep. I'm trying my best to keep up though (and this is the first thing I check when getting online!)

Minarael

@Toz - I can totally see it as a legit strategy for an experienced player. It's implausible, not impossible, and sometimes implausibility is a fantastic shield. At present, Aryanne is just too suspicious to ignore. 

Moirean

Eh, the question itself doesn't seem that suspicious. I'd ask a question in the thread, too, if I wasn't sure. Minarael seems to be reading a lot into this question, using rather hyperbolic/inflammatory word choices ("just too suspicious to ignore"), and that heavy push comes across just as suspicious (if not more so) as a question being asked for clarification. Then again, Omei is being aggressive, too, and she's confirmed town - but she has actions to back up her behavior.

The No Lynch seems more suspect. I really never get why people want no lynch days early on - all it really does is mean that you have no info to work with, while the mafia get a guaranteed kill, and you basically start day 2 like a second day 1, with less people. 

Looking back, Xenia, Llok and Aryanne all wanted no lynch (unless I missed someone). I seriously doubt the mafia would cluster their votes up like that (why would they? They have 16 people to spread them among), especially for a unique vote like no lynch. I can see one mafia trying to float the idea (obviously, since Xenia did). Maybe a second to support that, but definitely not THREE mafia all gunning for the same thing...though why link yourself with Xenia after she was proven scum? Either a very risky gambit or legitimately a citizen who weirdly likes the no lynch idea (even tho I think it's duuuumb).

That being said, "spidey senses" is pretty poor reasoning for lynching someone. If you can't sketch out some rationale for a choice, it does indicate that you are just trying to kill someone to get them dead.

So...

- On the fence about Aryanne, I guess. I can see reasons either way, but starting a train before everyone gets a chance to post seems pre-mature.

- Mina's being pretty aggressive and seems to be pushing a kill. Could be suspect

- Macavity's vote? Just a vote, following the "safe" command of Omei. Could be mindless following, could be mafia slipping in a vote

- Llok...is random as hell. He's played crazy like this in other games and has turned out to be the doctor. He's also played crazy like this in other games and has turned out to be mafia. So, toss up. 

- Mesk doesn't seem insanely suspicious (she's voting for Llok because he is being Llok), but she also uses the vague spidey sense logic and admits she wants him gone because of chatter? Definitely gonna be watching her.

We have a lot of people not really posting at all, and, TBH, odds are high that mafia are hanging out in THAT pack of players. I think we should wait for them to say stuff before we get any trains going, so they can't just dogpile onto one and force a fast lynch.

Macavity

it is also possible that, that said group that may be hiding the other mafia members could be staying silent because they know Aryanne is part of the mafia and are trying to allow the citizens to talk themselves out of the right lynching vote, and then jump on the bandwagon once they do not see one of their own being targeted.

Periluna

Quick question!

Why vote for someone and not give a reason. Just a vote. If -anything- seems suspicious to me, it's that. Bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning?

Ugh. You lot are confusing me.

I'm holding off just a little longer as sleep is calling me. All night shifts suck unicorns.

Etrigan

Hiding in numbers...

VOTE: Aryanne

Llok

Vote: Meskhenet

In all honesty, Omei's annoying me a bit (why break the habbit ey )

Look you're a confirmed lifer and thats good. But maybe you should step back and observe? You've given people places to hide without letting them make their own. Somebody quietly joins your train and you point the finger at them, what do they respond?

"Omei is a confirmed lifer and I was just following what she said."

Which is completely fair and completely understandable. You're doing too much front end work here.

It's part of why you creating that lynch train in the first round was a stupid move. Let the others make them and see who goes where.

 

As for my vote? Well he voted for me and I believe it was after two or three others tried fingering me as suspicious and playing a call my bluff style. Anything to push it ey?

Aryanne? Well I dont care to defend her but meh. Seems a bit of a rubbish one.

 

Meskhenet

Mm, finish moving and come back to all of this! For my first game, I must say it has been entirely captivating.

First, Llok. She, not he.

And I have been annoyed by you since the first day. However, I chose to see if you continued to talk the way that you do before casting my vote.

Llok said:

To be fair you've taken out one of the underlings on a pure whim and it's turned out good. Do we need much more of a positive start than this? The best case scenario is we kill 2 off. The worst we kill a positive role off.

Why not just vote null this round and see where le undead leave us in the morning?

Vote: Noobooody

The reasoning for suggesting this at the beginning simply seemed lacking to me, and first made me suspicious. Now, I realize there was a ton of discussion since about the pro's and con's of doing such, and can see the advantage of doing so, if there is a sufficient lack of information to make a decision.

Llok said:

I've played and won more games than any of you.

Arrogance. When I look for an ally, I look for people who are open-minded and willing to discuss things on a reasonable level. This implied, to me, that you believe that you can do no wrong, and are going to win simply because you are -that- amazing. If anything, I  vote for you just to ensure the town's survival from mistakes you will make with cockiness blinding your actions.

Llok

Meskhenet said:

Mm, finish moving and come back to all of this! For my first game, I must say it has been entirely captivating.

First, Llok. She, not he.

And I have been annoyed by you since the first day. However, I chose to see if you continued to talk the way that you do before casting my vote.

Llok said:

To be fair you've taken out one of the underlings on a pure whim and it's turned out good. Do we need much more of a positive start than this? The best case scenario is we kill 2 off. The worst we kill a positive role off.

Why not just vote null this round and see where le undead leave us in the morning?

Vote: Noobooody

The reasoning for suggesting this at the beginning simply seemed lacking to me, and first made me suspicious. Now, I realize there was a ton of discussion since about the pro's and con's of doing such, and can see the advantage of doing so, if there is a sufficient lack of information to make a decision.

Llok said:

I've played and won more games than any of you.

Arrogance. When I look for an ally, I look for people who are open-minded and willing to discuss things on a reasonable level. This implied, to me, that you believe that you can do no wrong, and are going to win simply because you are -that- amazing. If anything, I  vote for you just to ensure the town's survival from mistakes you will make with cockiness blinding your actions.

Flimsy at best.

You mistake me, good madam! I am citing my past experience as a resume to say that first day votes matter not much here nor there in the mad grasp to sling someone from a rooftop! I've seen it happen time and time again.

My view on the first day is that we're all in a dark room, unable to see.The lights have been switched on and we scramble for it! We get lucky or we don't. We got lucky. And then what? Omei led the way. Instead of sitting back and watching the reaction to it which was far more interesting than the vote itself?

Except that was spoilt

Omei

I think I'm with Llok here, as flamboyantly as he's behaving. I don't necessarily agree with the way he plays his games, but I highly doubt he's scum, and he seems perfectly willing to admit his mistakes, even if he has a different standard entirely of what those mistakes are. We have bigger fish to fry, people.

Demarcus

@Aldric I wasn't, but I will now! There's been plenty of contradictions now that make Aryanne awfully suspicious.

Vote: Aryanne

I've got my eye on a few other people. Etrigan hiding in the numbers. This is two trains he's jumped on with about a 3 word post accompanying it. Talk about a low profile for a mafia. And Macavity brings up a decent point, generally the Dreikathi are going to want to get other people to start trains against innocent citizens and then bandwagon, but when it is a Mafia member that is the target, they want all of the credit in the world because hey, who would sell out one of their own? So I disagree that they would want to get the vote off Aryanne, necessarily. The masses have already demonstrated an intolerance for those that defend the condemned (poor Vharen). Of course, nobody seems to be rushing to Aryanne's defense, either. Hrmmm... this will require some thought. The vote above still stands.

Teani

I have to say Minarael has been pushing quite a bit and even if scum wouldn't generally be those who start a train, who says they won't?

I've only played this game one time before as well, and I don't like a nolynch the first day either. It doesn't seem like it would benefit anyone. At least from a lynch you get some information, seeing how people defend or bandwagon. Not supporting the train on Aryanne, even though that doesn't mean I defend her. I just think Minarael is more suspicious.

Vote: Minarael

Minarael

I actually withheld a vote till I felt that someone was suspicious. I don't see that as very pushy.  I am pointing out inconsistencies in Aryanne's story that make her suspicious. Further, I have been encouraging discussion because that benefits Townies the most. The more people babble, the more likely we are to pluck out the broken logic, the more likely we are to pinpoint our scum. 

Not seeing the logic to push a vote at Meshenket. It's pretty dang flimsy. She may be generally suspicious, but there's certainly not enough info yet to start gathering up a posse. 

I agree that we likely have scum hiding in the silence. That doesn't mean we can't call out people who are being shifty. 

Edit: In general, Mina = aggressive. Ask any of the people who've known me a bit. Mouthy is more of a personality trait than a tactic.