The State of Carnifex

Toz · April 2013

I don't think anyone is arguing/would argue that Carnifex is a balanced class right now. It suffers from the same problem as it did back when weaponry made the damage it cranked out absurd: there's nothing else to do with it. If you aren't SSL-whoring, you aren't going to get soul. No soul means no damage+, no speed+, and the only instakill that isn't bugged is reave - which requires soul.

Daskalos · April 2013

So, of note, there's a skill on the undead side of the game that has the exact same damage formula as lightning and could be artifacted out for the exact same effect. When lightning was nerfed, it was made to match that formula.

Also, it's not about 'handling some classes better than others'. I'm sorry, but when I'm at full health and have next to no afflictions on me, then suddenly I'm passing out because I -didn't- choose to turtle? I have a problem with that.

Serrice · April 2013

It just means you need to take into account another variable when in a fight with Carnifex. It's not a failing of class balance persay - more, it's a failing of yourself for not maintaining awareness of all aspects of your status. Your health and your afflictions are just a part of that - in most cases they might just be the whole of it, but not in this case.

Illikaal · April 2013

Idea #2594 Section: Combat Support: 16

2011/07/24 00:52:04: Make a decision whether Sentinels should be OP'd as a DPS class, or an AFF RATE class, and focus them in one direction or the other. Being bashed to death while a Syssin tries to put you down is no fun.

^ lol'd at that.

NOW WHY CAN'T WE DO IT TO CARNIFEX.

Toz · April 2013

It also takes, uh, a substantial amount of soul for you to start to pass out. I think they need to steal 60%+, but I'll say 50% to be on the safe side - that's you not interrupting them for ~25 SSLs. At least. I can't imagine letting a Syssin dstab me 25 times without interrupting them, or trying to do something defensive.

Mastema · April 2013

Yeah 60% is pretty much on the money.
 
[Carnifex]: Winterlynn has gained sleep H:4238(80%) M:5392(98%) W:96% E:108% [csdb e-] [Carnifex]: Winterlynn STOLEN 65% SOUL. [Carnifex]: Winterlynn has cured sleep

Illikaal · April 2013

Toz said:

It also takes, uh, a substantial amount of soul for you to start to pass out. I think they need to steal 60%+, but I'll say 50% to be on the safe side - that's you not interrupting them for ~25 SSLs. At least. I can't imagine letting a Syssin dstab me 25 times without interrupting them, or trying to do something defensive.

Tbh, I didn't know about the passout mechanic until Daskalos brought it up.

I either completely destroy the Carnifex before I ever get that low, or I end up dying to flat out damage.

Daskalos · April 2013

The thing is, I'm finally getting them right where I want them at about that soul level and then I'm passing out. I had Xiuhcoatl at 60% mana, transfixed, overwhelm once... and I passed out. And he's not the first that has happened to. And note, I push paralysis a -lot- so I'm doing the best I can to slow them down, along with rebounding, without completely stopping my offense.

Isto · April 2013

What Daskalos said. Pretty much the same thing happened to me. The only way to slow them down is to run, really, and regain soul. As Luminary, anyways.

Toz · April 2013

I have no idea how you passed out while he was transfixed - it shouldn't start unless you are already at low soul, after he hits you a final time. With him hindered, he should hemorrhaging soul instead of somehow draining you below that threshold. As a bandaid fix, I wouldn't mind the passing out thing bump up to 75%, but at the same time, if he's hitting you that often (that's seriously 30 SSLs in a row, without a 5s gap anywhere), you might wanna reconsider your offense style against 'em.

Calipso · April 2013

Toz said:

It also takes, uh, a substantial amount of soul for you to start to pass out. I think they need to steal 60%+, but I'll say 50% to be on the safe side - that's you not interrupting them for ~25 SSLs. At least. I can't imagine letting a Syssin dstab me 25 times without interrupting them, or trying to do something defensive.

let a Syssin only stab you 5 times without interrupting and you are done :P.

Carnifex are currently barely above Underpowered as is. The only thing they have for them currently is SSL and soul thirst, remove that and they are basically broken. Gotta live with it

Alastair · April 2013

Calipso said:
let a Syssin only stab you 5 times without interrupting and you are done :P.

Maybe with linear curing?

I was thinking over this Carnifex thing, and thought about tossing this idea out to people that know more. Maybe soul should be reworked pretty hardcore, in that it has certain 'thresholds'. Ie - dual break, steals 25% soul. Or replace breaks, because being a limb break class is its own sort of catch 22, with any other conditional, and negotiate the ease of said conditions with a corresponding amount of soul. I will try to flesh this idea out more, with some more realistic/practical examples, but this came to mind at almost 0600 my time and I haven't slept, so it's a bit rough. Hopefully the gist is passed through.

Luna · April 2013

Daskalos said:

The thing is, I'm finally getting them right where I want them at about that soul level and then I'm passing out. I had Xiuhcoatl at 60% mana, transfixed, overwhelm once... and I passed out. And he's not the first that has happened to. And note, I push paralysis a -lot- so I'm doing the best I can to slow them down, along with rebounding, without completely stopping my offense.

That doesn't sound like a very probable scenario to me. You should post the log.

Illikaal · April 2013

Calipso said:

Toz said:

It also takes, uh, a substantial amount of soul for you to start to pass out. I think they need to steal 60%+, but I'll say 50% to be on the safe side - that's you not interrupting them for ~25 SSLs. At least. I can't imagine letting a Syssin dstab me 25 times without interrupting them, or trying to do something defensive.

let a Syssin only stab you 5 times without interrupting and you are done :P.

Carnifex are currently barely above Underpowered as is. The only thing they have for them currently is SSL and soul thirst, remove that and they are basically broken. Gotta live with it

Because YOU might die to a syssin after 5 dstabs doesn't mean everyone else does.

Carnifex are also far from underpowered. You've barely had the class two weeks, and you're sitting here disputing the observations of those who have dealt with the class upon their release. I don't know how many times someone has to tell you to do your homework before it finally lands for you.

Daskalos · April 2013

Next time I fight a Carnifex I'll log it. I typically don't log because my fights run so long they'll eventually crash cmud. Xiuhcoatl is the only one I've ever had this problem with, and it's nuts. Also, 'change my fighting style' means turtling, which I am loathe to do. I hate turtling, I think it's far too easy in this game, and should be looked at. Using paralysis + rebounding, I still didn't hit that.

Of course, fighting Xiuhcoatl, there's also the 'he spams a godawful amount on purpose' factor that induces insane lag, but there's a report in to make that harder to do.

Seir · April 2013

A lot of the problem with the game stems from turtling. Shield is just too powerful when spamming repeatedly and I'd honestly encourage the removal of rebounding at the cost of looking at some physical offenses to slow them down if necessary.

The end result of turtling becomes a case of whoever runs out of curatives first (which is awful), who runs out of will/endurance first (whichever class is more intensive in its usage), or whoever has a class that has a snowball offense (e.g. Carnifex).

As an aside, that's one reason Carnifex needs a change and I said this even before the class came out. Timebomb/Snowball offenses do not work. This has been true in every single application of them across IRE. See Vodun and Obliterate. There's no way to effectively balance them and the mechanic prevents other aspects of the class that has them to be buffed.

Alastair · April 2013

Seir said:

A lot of the problem with the game stems from turtling. Shield is just too powerful when spamming repeatedly and I'd honestly encourage the removal of rebounding at the cost of looking at some physical offenses to slow them down if necessary.

The end result of turtling becomes a case of whoever runs out of curatives first (which is awful), who runs out of will/endurance first (whichever class is more intensive in its usage), or whoever has a class that has a snowball offense (e.g. Carnifex).

As an aside, that's one reason Carnifex needs a change and I said this even before the class came out. Timebomb/Snowball offenses do not work. This has been true in every single application of them across IRE. See Vodun and Obliterate. There's no way to effectively balance them and the mechanic prevents other aspects of the class that has them to be buffed.

Comparing vodun to anything else is utterly laughable, even in the case of timebomb offenses, it was a completely different story. Leaving/turtling for 5 seconds didn't stop obliterate.

I'm not saying this class is balanced by any means, but it seems to me like what some people are saying is "I know how to avoid it, I just don't like to because of e-machismo." If the class is broken, counter it however you can while you wait for it to get fixed, even if that means doing 'touch shield'.

Daskalos · April 2013

If I stop for 5 seconds, that's 2 rounds of combat lost. I also have a 15 second window in which to work with sear or they get their tree tattoo back. It is vitally important for a Luminary to go 'full throttle' all the time, considering we're *also* dealing with rebounding the exact same as the Carnifex.

Xiuhcoatl · April 2013

Luna said:

Daskalos said:

The thing is, I'm finally getting them right where I want them at about that soul level and then I'm passing out kappa. I had Xiuhcoatl at 60% mana, transfixed, overwhelm once kappa... and I passed out kappa. And he's not the first that has happened to kappa. And note, I push paralysis a -lot- so I'm doing the best I can to slow them down, along with rebounding, without completely stopping my offense kappa.

That doesn't sound like a very probable scenario to me kappa. You should post the log kappa.

IIRC and I usually do it was too different scenarios kappa. The 60% mana was when he was alternating 1.5k lightning strikes with sapping and didn't hinder me at all kappa. The transfix and overwhelmed part go together, because he got that off like twice on me in one match kappa. He never seems to capitalize on it and it actually results in his offense getting slowed down rather than helped up kappa. So I writhe out of it and proceed to punish him kappa.

Edited for kappa kappa.

Daskalos · April 2013

...you realize I haven't entered the sap command in like a RL year, right? Also, I couldn't capitalize because, well... I was unconscious. Kappa.

Moirean · April 2013

The class itself is aware of the issues. When I was last GM, I started compiling feedback and ideas into projects in the combat clan and returned to that when I took over GM again. More recently Toz and I have created a rather extensive spreadsheet breaking down the entire class skill-by-skill.

Class balance, however, is not easy and it takes time, so it's something the admin and liaisons have to get around to! They are busy people and nearly all of them are volunteers. I'm willing to wait, and get a nice, complete fix, rather than rush into kneejerk changes. Those never work out, and usually lead to more work in the end.

Daskalos · April 2013

Eh, my only bandaid I'd ask for right now is removal of the uncon feature of soul. Uncon as an aff is up there with hunger whoring, IMO

Serrice · April 2013

Illidan said:
Because YOU might die to a syssin after 5 dstabs doesn't mean everyone else does.

Time to test this.

Haven · April 2013

@Daskalos and @Isto, there's also the limb damage route to slow down Carnifex. I know whenever one of them gets me low, I either alternate between shield and rebounding til my soul returns to above 90% or I change my offense to breaking their limbs with crush+smash for the instabreak.

Assuming you've moved their parry around as a Luminary, you can crush two limbs in one command then follow up with smash for the instabreak to each arm. This tactic usually nets me back a decent portion of soul. 10-15% if pulled off correctly. That way you don't have to turtle. Battle a focusable affliction and smash + chasten with a focusable affliction and it'll still help towards your absolve goal.

Edit: You'd be targetting the arms of course to slow down their offense. I suppose legs are possible but that's a lot trickier to accomplish for the insta-prone.

Serrice · April 2013

Each level of limb break counts as an aff for overwhelm, which makes it relatively easy to get the 5-aff upgrade. Word's Jury's out on the 10-aff upgrade though!

Daskalos · April 2013

"Words out"?

Serrice · April 2013

I don't think I used that expression like it was meant to be used. And it's 'word's', contraction of 'word is'.

Ezalor · April 2013

Jury's out is what you were going for I think.

Serrice · April 2013

Thanks! Time to make an edit.

Daskalos · April 2013

IF I have 10 affs on you and I'm overwhelming, you should die. Even then, I didn't get the instakill I asked for, just a doubling. I had asked for 5 affs do double, 10 affs instakill. I got 5 affs do 150%, 10 affs do 200% - and quite frankly, I'm pretty happy with it. At least now when I build up a stack I'm not transfixing twice then watching as they shield and cure.

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