The State of Carnifex

Seir

Right, so I'm one of those who maintains an opinion that Carnifex are a class in need of aid. The class is basically reliant upon a snowball effect that allows the class to obtain obscenely high numbers of damage without any sort of buildup or venom offense, not even utilizing Sensitivity. With a non-artifacted Carnifex, the damage isn't noticable until the soul drains go up.

Since I'm not a liaison, I do not have the ease of easy class switch nor easily testing all feasible options. However, I am not going to state that "this needs to happen" or "Carnifex damage needs to be scaled back" or "Carnifex's damage is justified because they have no other offense". I don't think that's correct at all at this point. What is needed is to post the numbers and data in order for liaisons and other players to assess the state of Carnifex for constructive criticism for the improvement of the class in the long run.

For the first part of these tests, I was not able to get Luna's assistance due to OOC obligations and Moirean had another OOC obligation. The first part was with Angwe, a dexterous statpack in the arena with a 133/98/133 bardiche. No buffs to the weapon since soul gems were not available. No artifacts. I have displayed my audit with a protection amulet in the log. Without it, we can generally assume the damage would be more. Angwe also had about a .5 second delay due to latency. With soul gems, the damage can also be assumed to be more.

http://www.logsty.com/logs/YEYRp

Xiuhcoatl was also kind enough to post a log on Logsty. For reference, he was fully deffed. Weapon stats are not known, but it is known that he is using a Level 2 bardiche.

http://www.logsty.com/logs/MToIl

Unfortunately, I couldn't clean it up because the code was a bit skewed, but this should provide a bit more information. Even with howls and an active offense, it was not possible to stop the scaling of damage. It is believed at this time that it is either weapon runes or +str causing a large scaling in terms of what kind of damage that Carnifex are doing.

If possible, if @Luna can provide a log of her damage and speed, it would be appreciated. She is currently known to have both +str and a weapon rune and can provide more information regarding the scaling.

Moirean

You aren't smoking rebounding or hindering back. There isn't limb targetting and parrying. I'm not going to pretend that I like Carni as they are, but these numbers aren't really valid for an actual combat situation.

Personally, I'd like to see soulthirst completely removed and replaced with a resource-management mechanic. Maybe Toz can post some of the google doc we (mostly he) worked on?

Seir

Just fought him again correcting the previous issues. I fared better and he ran, but the same venoms were being used again and I had to run repeatedly because I couldn't handle the damage he was doing. Basically, the Soul mechanic is likely the root of the scale issues too.

Edit: for some reason, I wasn't smoking rebounding previously, but his damage is essentially extraordinarily high without any set up.

Mastema

<P>If you keep up rebounding you should not have a issue. The class can not raze/slash so the moment they hit rebounding they are knocked back a peg.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Sorry just seen your new post :P</P>

Seir

Yeah. Noticed that, but I'm of the opinion that Carnifex should have razeslash. I'm just kind of scared if they do get it right now.

I was hanging with him fine after addressing system issues, but I was forced to run on more than one occasion due to the point that his speed and damage got. Soul mechanic is a double-edged blade, I suppose.

I'm reminded of old Sentinel's damage.

Edit: Okay, log says that rebounding is definitely what slowed him down. Soul mechanic got him at SSL's of about 2.0-2.1 seconds. He relied upon the mire hound to deliver loki, but pretty much all of his attacks were aconite/curare which doesn't inspire much faith in the class. @Moirean, you mind posting some of the ideas you have from the Google docs? I'm of the opinion that changes that divert Carnifex away from this path would be healthy for the class because against anyone that can tank the damage or run, the Carnifex isn't going to be able to kill them.

Toz

Haven't gotten to doing Savagery yet, at least not with going through the skills methodically and seeing what's what. I will say I am 110% in favor of deleting the 'hit them to hit faster' mechanic, and here's why:

- It hinders the ability to buff the class to actual usability

- It prevents ANY routes other than 'hinder until you can overpower them', because even if the class DID have a way to kill without just spamming SSL (it doesn't), there'd be no reason to. It kills all need for innovation, because if you aren't using SSL, you aren't collecting soul, which means you aren't hurting as much/hitting as fast as you could be.

My suggested fix, when I get around to writing out the entire proposal?

- Halberd oriented at afflicting, based on soul poison, with perhaps an instakill in warhounds (to take the place of the currently useless beastmaster) in a similar vein to the Templar's Retribution.

- Hammer offense based on limbs, similar to how Teradrim currently exist.

I will say the trouble with Carnifex, right now? If you delete soul thirst, the class flops entirely (there's literally no other way to kill anyone at all). If you don't, then no one is going to use anything else to kill people (because snowballing means your kill route is a) easier to do and b) more efficient than anything else that would be balanced). If you nerf the damage, then they're just going to have to keep hitting you at the end of their chain while you've already lost, so really you'll just sit there getting ssl'd for a few more rounds at the end. Also those who AREN'T artied are going to have further complications. Currently, it's a mess where things are tangled up and depending on the system of soul-stealing to get anywhere, and any change to that impacts far too many OTHER things. In my opinion, the class needs an overhaul, and should have been overhauled when it was first released. Instead, the administration at the time decided to not talk to us/ignore the project we assembled for them/not talk to us, and went on to revamp other classes.

Xiuhcoatl

I'm using curare and aconite as a handicap. It gives people the ability to use tree/focus/renew and a herb curing in order to not have multiple afflictions on them at the same time. I like fights to drag out slightly longer, and my choice of tactics usually shows this. One of the reasons I stopped using Carnifex was because they tend to finish fights quickly, so I had to adjust my tactics to drag them out longer. 

Other combinations of venoms I could be using would put far too much pressure on someone's herb balance and cause people to get venomlocked too quickly at 1.5 speed PSL. While with Stupidity/Paralysis they can hold their own relatively well until the damage gets too much. However, because I'm only using those two at the start they aren't hindered very long. 

The loki hound is really the only decent one ATM, because it's the only one to deliver reliable afflictions. I tried to mess around with the canine for double the limb damage, but the changes to epseth/epteth make that far too easily countered. As for the running part, the class has three mechanics to prevent that. However, my bad luck makes it next to impossible to use any of them. Spirit chains being a rough equivalent to hands of the grave. Charging, just proning the person if they leave the room through standard means and you're on balance. Then the best out of the bunch, soul shackling, which causes you to be rooted to the area, but for a very limited time and based on the amount of soul we've sucked down. 

I'm using a level 3 bardiche now, thanks to the refund on the torc, @Razmael. 

Toz

Haemophilia hound actually has a better herb balance pressure rate, it just takes more effort to make it work.

Xiuhcoatl

If you hit me with Haemophilia, I'm going to next to entirely ignore the affliction because of the very low priority it has. Loki at least gives me a diverse set of afflictions, which while not optimal is better than the option to give them one every so often actively. If I wanted to try really hard to kill someone, I could see switching out the bloodhound for loki if haemophilia is stuck on them. However, given by again the low priority, that'll be a lot of the time. If I'm not making any ground on them, the bloodhound will stay out. So sticking with the shortcut IMO is a good enough alternative. Not to be like DOHO YOU'RE WRONG. Just, don't see a reason to put more work into a class that I know is going to get changed around anyway. 

Toz

Throw in haemophilia because it sits high up on the cure stack for ginseng, meaning you can stack darkshade/vomiting once they start to fall behind, plus it is a reliable aff instead of relying on some RNG for a useful affliction (though truthfully either way it's just gravy). And I really, really, really hope they'll get changed around, but from the sound of things (with all the classes up for revamp first), it'll probably be awhile yet.

Mastema

<P>I was there when the class was brought out and we ALL stated straight away that it had huge issues. Not once has this been looked at and not once has anyone sat down with us and ask us, "How can we fix it?". As it stands 90% of the skills are not worth using  or utterly reduant. Just look at Control, Beastmastery and the hammer attacks. I know it sounds mean of me to "bitch" about it but it was badly handled, or rather not handled. </P>

Moirean

My suggestion for the class revamp would be this (and this is from a top-down view, versus individual skills):

- Remove soul thirst

- Flesh out Savagery's skillset (they are NEARLY there) with a few tweaks: a limb damage route with hammers, spinning is fine as is, make carve actually viable for bleeding someone out

- Make soul % into a Carnifex-only resource, akin to kai, but it would start at full and drop with certain skill uses (see next point). This resource passively regenerates at a constant rate over (a fairly short) time period.

- Introduce a few more empowerment skills, such as the existing reckless and hammer force. These would be mid-fight skills, designed to give you a push towards an end-fight goal. These would cost soul% to activate, the idea being that total possible soul% serves as a limiting factor in which you can use/stack. Proper resource management would be rewarded with better potential setups. Examples could be a boost of damage for a short time, a flurry of hound attacks, the ability to temporarily doubleswing your hammer, etc.

- Give a deathlore skill, on a CD, which would quickly regenerate your souls to full. This would let you "reset" a fight if you want to try a new avenue, or set up for tactical strikes.

- Alternatively, just remove soul entirely, and tag a CD onto the mid-fight skills. Easier solution and still rewards tactical gameplay over the current spamming.

Obviously, there is more you could say here, but that's just a general suggestion.

Illikaal

I strongly dislike the suggestion of soul being a 'regenerative resource'. That was a huge problem with Paladins and Druids, because once your secondary resource was depleted, you were screwed. 

It'd be better if if it worked similarly to kai, in that for every enemy in the room with you, you passively generate a small amount of soul. The amount of soul you generate is then increased pending on which attacks you use from that point on, etc. THIS could be defined as "Soul Thirst". Then, a lot of abilities would work similarly to the Shaman/Kai mechanic where you can't use abilities/abilities cast slower if you don't meet the required amount. 

But this current BS about "Lets give you increased attack speed and attack damage just by autobashing." is just absurd. It's almost like fighting a druid with Sunlight thirst >_>. And afflictions. 

Moirean

By regenerative, I mean, it would renew over the course of a fight. Think hunter's focus in WoW. It's basically be the converse of Templar's charging - instead of building up charges, you'd spend soul, and then it would seep back into you.

It's more of a limiting factor in what attacks you could chain together at a given moment, versus a set resource you deal with before it's used up. Sorry, the devotion/essence reference was for it showing up in prompt.

Zun

A few people have said it, but it really is bizarre it for a single skillset to be at once a momentum focused -and- resource based skillset (especially such a limited one). 

The idea of momentum in 'Soul Thirst' is pretty darn cool. Would it be too difficult to focus on that? Maybe having 'souls' suffer huge degeneration outside of combat, but a similar increase to in-combat regeneration. And then tweak the 'turtling' skills to be more viable in the early stages of fights without a massive resource pool.

Edit: I have nooooo idea what I'm commenting about, but I'm pro originality. And anti- 'resource pool limitations' where combat is top-heavy. 

Illikaal

I've never played WoW, so I wouldn't know what a hunter's focus is. But yes, something like that sounds like it could work really well. That's why I love Slyphe's class designs, because of the intelligent limiting factors that he puts into them. You shouldn't be able to spam 1 skill over and over again and win a fight under any circumstances. And no, I'm not talking about dstab/dsk becaues those require venoms, and venoms require thought. 

People should have to make intelligent decisions on what skills to use, and when it is most appropriate to use them. Good decisions should be rewarded, and bad should result in punishments. It definitely will help separate the good combatants from bad. 

Moirean

I edited my original post, since it seems the reference to devotion threw people off:

- Make soul % into a Carnifex-only resource, akin to kai, but it would start at full and drop with certain skill uses (see next point). This resource passively regenerates at a constant rate over (a fairly short) time period.

Seir

Soul becomes the opposite of kai. You gain it by being offensive and it allows you to do perform certain abilities or unlocks special effects in others. Shrug.

Illikaal

I think that's already the general mechanic behind soul thirst. What's stupid about it is just the massive passive (huehue) attack speed and attack damage bonus that it gives. That by itself is just so good, you literally don't need to do ANYTHING else. 

Moirean

Yeah, I'd want the speedup/damage removed and you'd focus on using it for tactical choices.

Haven

The only thing OP about soul thirst is that it allows for speeds to drastically drop below 2.0 seconds. (1.5 is the cap) What makes it worse is that the optimal speed of 1.5 is inevitable the longer the fight drags on due to the only requirement of gaining soul is to strike your opponent (and it honestly doesn't take that long to reach.).

Unfortunately, what I find a lot of Carnifex doing then is taking the lazy route of spamming one or two combos or bashing over and over to collect soul until they reach 1.5 speeds where they can overwhelm an opponent without thought. For those that do not know, the reason why 1.5 speed is OP, it is because it allows the Knight to outpace herb balance with no set up beyond attacking the target. Consider that herbs take 1 second to cure and a Carnifex at optimal speed delivers 2 afflictions per ssl and thus making it 2 slashes at optimal speed to already stick an affliction (4 afflictions at 3 seconds, 3 afflictions are able to be cured.) Depending on the quality of the weapon the Carnifex is using, he can reach optimal speeds in roughly 10-15 slashes I think.

As a temporary fix, I would see the cap raised for soul thirst from 1.5 to 2.0 seconds until such a time the Administration are able to adequately fix the class. With this fix, Carnifex would simply be Infernal Knights again with a Loki hound instead of a bal-knocking falcon and gimmicky hammer techniques. There's no reason any Knight cannot land a venom lock with 2.0 speeds.

--------

I'd personally like to see the class retain the Venom combat aspect of it but allow soul to circle around the idea of speed/damage bursts and debilitating effects depending on the weapon the Carnifex was using and the status of their victim.

For instance, with a halberd/bardiche as a weapon delivering venom tactics like Knights of old, soul thirst would gather soul from the victim as it currently does but instead of increasing weapon speed and damage (I would see that halberds/bardiches be made to achieve 2.0 speeds from the get go via forging), allow soul collected to work like charges to release various stuns or other hiccups depending on the amount of afflictions already stuck on target at the time of release.

Hammers should have a viable limb pushing route in that's vastly more potent than anything the Halberd/Bardiche could ever offer. Soul thirst would operate as a means of either enhancing certain Deathlore/Savagery skills (like rage [which ignores the peace affliction I think] or herculean rage [which auto-prones targets the next 5 hits with hammer I think, been a while since I had the class] would get upgraded into a blood rage [ which could be something like temporary amplified damage, increased speeds, or adding stuns behind certain attacks ]) at various thresholds, provided victim meets certain requirements. I really like the idea behind the cracked ribs stuff so I'd suggest the soul stuff circle around that kind of theme for the hammer.

My two cents.

Edit: Maybe even expand on the weapon rusting / disarming / grappling for more Hammer effects too. Like if I manage to break both your arms AND have 30% soul or something moderately high, I can slam my hammer on your foot and grapple you (writhe affliction) for additional effects if not cured. It'd have to serve as a mid-fight or prerequisite to a finisher where we wrestle savagely or something. An alternate flavor to the halberd's wrench or reave or something.

Moirean

The problem with temporarily changing soul thirst is that then you are going to gimp the class - especially non-dex members - against classes like lycans and Templars which can slow us down a lot already.

Haven

Moirean said:

The problem with temporarily changing soul thirst is that then you are going to gimp the class - especially non-dex members - against classes like lycans and Templars which can slow us down a lot already.

Hrm. Then perhaps (in regards to the temp fix in my post) throw back razeslash into the skillset and give Carnifex some deathlore ability that changes ssl to work like holding two single handed weapons (so that at least one slash can continue on if left arm was broken)? I dunno.

Illikaal

Moirean said:

The problem with temporarily changing soul thirst is that then you are going to gimp the class - especially non-dex members - against classes like lycans and Templars which can slow us down a lot already.

If you're not Dexterous, then you shouldn't be PKing as a Carnifex to begin with. Unless some other mechanic is specified that would otherwise allow you to PK as other statpacks, I'm sure Dexterous is the intended one for use. That's like saying "Slowing down Shaman attacks will gimp it for non-wise Shamans". There's no reason for use NOT to go wise to begin with. If you're trying to PK as a powerful, experienced, or lolherculean Shaman, then you're doing it wrong. 

Teradrim are the only class in the game, to my knowledge, that can literally get away with using ANY  statpack because of their rune setups, and how Momentum works. I personally like that, as it gives people options on how they want to use the class. Still, expecting a Lycanthrope to PK with no balance modifiers is unrealistic, especially since it can already be hard for Dexterous ones to do so. Carnifex are in the same boat, unless specified otherwise. 

Moirean

Well, imho Carnifex should be muscular. It is weird for them to be dex-based. They are roar smash hammers and halberds grr!

I've always PK'd as neutral balance, ever since statpacks were introduced. It's feasible, albeit slower, and soulthirst actually levels the playing field there, since the cap is the same regardless of statpack.

Also, I think, if we're suggesting ways to improve classes, we should take a page from the Teradrim and give classes a range of routes to choose from, instead of pushing for cookie-cutter statpack choices.

Haven

Illidan said:

Moirean said:

The problem with temporarily changing soul thirst is that then you are going to gimp the class - especially non-dex members - against classes like lycans and Templars which can slow us down a lot already.

If you're not Dexterous, then you shouldn't be PKing as a Carnifex to begin with. Unless some other mechanic is specified that would otherwise allow you to PK as other statpacks, I'm sure Dexterous is the intended one for use. That's like saying "Slowing down Shaman attacks will gimp it for non-wise Shamans". There's no reason for use NOT to go wise to begin with. If you're trying to PK as a powerful, experienced, or lolherculean Shaman, then you're doing it wrong. 

Teradrim are the only class in the game, to my knowledge, that can literally get away with using ANY  statpack because of their rune setups, and how Momentum works. I personally like that, as it gives people options on how they want to use the class. Still, expecting a Lycanthrope to PK with no balance modifiers is unrealistic, especially since it can already be hard for Dexterous ones to do so. Carnifex are in the same boat, unless specified otherwise. 

I disagree. I absolutely love the fact that the Carnifex class can work as Herculean, Powerful, and Dexterous (I once heard someone said Wise was possible as Carnifex too because it allowed for potent use of various EQ Deathlore skills like that taint carbon copy or something. Never had adaptation artifact prior to this week so I dunno if that was true.) I hope that the Admin, regardless of whatever they do decide to do, stick to that set up.

Edit: Also, I believe the Luminaries are like the Teradrim too in that they can literally use any statpack and still be viable to PK.

Illikaal

Haven said:

Illidan said:

Moirean said:

The problem with temporarily changing soul thirst is that then you are going to gimp the class - especially non-dex members - against classes like lycans and Templars which can slow us down a lot already.

If you're not Dexterous, then you shouldn't be PKing as a Carnifex to begin with. Unless some other mechanic is specified that would otherwise allow you to PK as other statpacks, I'm sure Dexterous is the intended one for use. That's like saying "Slowing down Shaman attacks will gimp it for non-wise Shamans". There's no reason for use NOT to go wise to begin with. If you're trying to PK as a powerful, experienced, or lolherculean Shaman, then you're doing it wrong. 

Teradrim are the only class in the game, to my knowledge, that can literally get away with using ANY  statpack because of their rune setups, and how Momentum works. I personally like that, as it gives people options on how they want to use the class. Still, expecting a Lycanthrope to PK with no balance modifiers is unrealistic, especially since it can already be hard for Dexterous ones to do so. Carnifex are in the same boat, unless specified otherwise. 

I disagree. I absolutely love the fact that the Carnifex class can work as Herculean, Powerful, and Dexterous (I once heard someone said Wise was possible as Carnifex too because it allowed for potent use of various EQ Deathlore skills like that taint carbon copy or something. Never had adaptation artifact prior to this week so I dunno if that was true.) I hope that the Admin, regardless of whatever they do decide to do, stick to that set up.

Edit: Also, I believe the Luminaries are like the Teradrim too in that they can literally use any statpack and still be viable to PK.

You probably misread what I was trying to convey. Right NOW, the ideal statpack for Carnifex is Dexterous. It would be NICE if they were intended to be used as a Herculean or Powerful statpack, because like Moirean said, they use huge weapons and come across as savage, hulking warriors. 

The problem with this right now is Soul Thirst. Herculean Carnifex will just destroy anyone provided they have enough Soul, and Dexterous ones just help them get to that point even faster. I personally think more classes should be workable around the different statpacks, Carnifex specifically being useable via Herculean/Powerful/Dexterous as Teradrim are. As of -now- though, Herculean isn't ideal, unless you're going to rely on the silly mechanic that is Soul Thirst. 

Mastema

<P>I would be happy if attacks capped at 2.0secs and the damage did not increase at all with soulthirst. We could make up with this by giving a raze/slash to the class that hits at 2.5secs for dexterous and 2.75-3.0 for neutral. Of course, I am no liaison so I can only say what I think from playing the class as a dexterous affliction user. Who does not spam aconite/curare. I tend to have it as my first venom then it moves on to kelp afflictions, while targeting limbs. Perhaps I am odd in that I play it as a real affliction class like I did as a Infernal!</P>
<P>Quick edit:</P>
<P>Another option is to keep it as it is in regard to speed (drop the damage gain  all together) and slow the rate you gain soul at, as it seems that might be the real issue with soulthirst. Perhaps make it so you gain no soul at all when you miss and after 10 soul collected it slows down to from four soul for every two spinslashes you gain, to instead be three soul max. Then at 20 soul drops again to two soul. Whereby at 10 soul you can do a burst of damage if you so desire, and it all vanishes from your weapon, or at 20 you can do something epic also.</P>

Haven

Frequent and or tactical use of curare/aconite isn't bad in my book. What makes me frown is when a Carnifex player doesn't use venoms at all and just spinslashes me down until they have X soul taken and then begins their offense (not that I let them do that [hai shield tattoo and rebounding pipe!] but I frown when they try!) or when curare/aconite is the only venom they use to the same effect of waiting to reach optimal speeds before switching to other venoms.

It's those lazy tactics in hopes of reaching optimal speeds first before really laying on a thoughtful offense that make me frown because they only highlight how over-powered/broken 1.5 speeds are and it's worsened the class' overall reputation. Not to say all Carnifex, guilded or otherwise, do this but yeah.

Mastema

How hard would it be then to make it so you gain no soul if you use curare? Taking into account I know squat about how skills are written :( Because would that not force spamers to use other venoms to gain soul instead of lol spam.

Moirean

These really are just band-aid fixes and I think they would ultimately hurt the class unless other changes were also made in conjunction. I would MUCH rather see an overhaul instead of spotty changes here and there.