The State of Carnifex

Haven

Mastema said:

How hard would it be then to make it so you gain no soul if you use curare? Taking into account I know squat about how skills are written Because would that not force spamers to use other venoms to gain soul instead of lol spam.

Nahhhhh. That'd make it overly complicated. Best solution would be to simply raise the cap from 1.5 to 2 seconds. Although the class would need compensation like Moirean said so as to not be gimped by the limb damage classes that'd break the left arm.

Mastema

I do agree it needs a full overhaul. Yet I am still confused as to why so little people use rebounding. It stops Carnifex in their tracks. @Haven 2 seconds sounds perfect too me. I know I can still pump out afflictions at that rate.

Alastair

In the spirit of temporary band aids and staying in Haven's example:

Give them a new ability, ambidexterity or something, with a damage malus for every attack used with a broken arm. Dual break would still disable weapon attacks ofc though.

Barda

I didn't read through everything because there was so much but I am not trans Savagery about 500 lessons off from it actually but using Yettaves bardiche which has 3 runes I think all level 3 I only hit myself at first for about 600 total with an ssl at 3.42 seconds with a 33/34 cutting blunt audit. But in fights where I have gotten soul thirst up I have gotten to hitting at 1.8 seconds a swing it just takes for forever to get there. I don't know what my damage is at that point but it isn't enough to really kill anyone or that I have been able to kill anyone with straight damage yet.

Illikaal

Barda said:

I didn't read through everything because there was so much but I am not trans Savagery about 500 lessons off from it actually but using Yettaves bardiche which has 3 runes I think all level 3 I only hit myself at first for about 600 total with an ssl at 3.42 seconds with a 33/34 cutting blunt audit. But in fights where I have gotten soul thirst up I have gotten to hitting at 1.8 seconds a swing it just takes for forever to get there. I don't know what my damage is at that point but it isn't enough to really kill anyone or that I have been able to kill anyone with straight damage yet.

That's because your health pool is probably fairly low, unless you're counting '600 total' as per swing, meaning you take 1200 damage. Those number's can't possibly be right, especially on a bardiche with level 3 runes. 

Moirean

He's not trans savagery or weaponry and his strength is like 12 or whatever newbs have. :P

Illikaal

....you realize a level 1 muscular newbie has 16 str, right. Just saying.

Moirean

I was using hyberbole. :P I have 16 str and trans everything, and I do about 800 damage, so 600 for someone without trans'd skills (Capable weaponry and fabled savagery) sounds fairly accurate, I think.

Toz

He's resilient. He pretty much literally has 12 str (13 iirc).

Barda

14 Strength, got an amulet and here is a ssl

You strike out at yourself, slashing him with a bardiche, ripping him wide open.

Health Lost: 270, cutting.

Balance Used: 1.71 seconds

Spinning a bardiche deftly in your hands, you bring it about for another strike.

You strike out at yourself, slashing him with a bardiche, ripping him wide open.

Health Lost: 270, cutting.

Balance Used: 1.71 seconds

Time to recover: 3.42 seconds. 

That is no soul thirst.

This is with 49% soul eaten 

You strike out at yourself, slashing him with a bardiche, ripping him wide open.

Health Lost: 333, cutting.

A jolt of raw energy travels through your weapon as it gorges itself on yourself's soul.

Balance Used: 0.75 seconds

Spinning a bardiche deftly in your hands, you bring it about for another strike.

You strike out at yourself, slashing him with a bardiche, ripping him wide open.

Health Lost: 335, cutting.

A jolt of raw energy travels through your weapon as it gorges itself on yourself's soul.

Balance Used: 0.75 seconds

Time to recover: 1.50 seconds.

Barda

My audit 

Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutting        10%          0%           51%          33%

Blunt          10%          0%           52%          34%

Magic          10%          0%           0%           10%

Fire           30%          0%           0%           30%

Cold           30%          0%           0%           30%

Electric       20%          0%           0%           20%

Poison         20%          0%           0%           20%

Psychic        0%           0%           0%           0%

Asphyxiation   10%          0%           0%           10%

More or less that isn't enough damage to kill anyone the only bonus is the speed at which I am doing it at it but you only take 2% per ssl  so that was a total of 24 ssl's starting out at 3.42 seconds so that took me about a minute to get there.

Here is the bardiche stats

Damage: 130  Penetration: 91  Speed: 174  Arcana: 45

And the Runes

"rune145375"              a rune of cutting

"rune173170"              a serrated rune

"rune179216"              a Celestine rune of empowerment

Have 60 lessons in weaponry and 1155 in Savagery

Illikaal

No wonder why. The damage on that bardiche is complete crap. I have a regular bardiche with no runes on it, and it still has more damage than yours. 

Barda

That is high damage on a bardiche according to everyone I asked. My personal bardiche is only 118 on damage and like 141 on speed.

Illikaal

It is a two-handed weapon.

Damage: 134  Penetration: 98  Speed: 133  Arcana: 0

A bardiche has no venoms or magical effects on it.

Barda

Compared to Yettaves though that speed is crap, your ssl would be about .25 seconds slower

Daskalos

But once you get soul built up, does it even matter what the weapons speed is?

Toz

For pk, nothing but speed matters. 165 speed is where you want to be because after that diminishing returns kicks you in the crotch.

Daskalos

What I mean is... even if you're slower from the outset, once you get soul built up, doesn't it guarantee a win? I mean, I was easily handling Xiuhcoatl's afflictions and damage until soul starting knocking me unconscious. I even had him nearly dead.

Illikaal

For Carnifex, the speed doesn't matter. Being .25 seconds slower is a complete joke, considering how quickly you can get down to a 1.5 second SSL. 

The only difference would be what, 1 or 2 more spinslashes? 

How much quicker does your spinslash get with each round?

Seir

It actually takes awhile for them to get to 1.5, but honestly, it doesn't really matter once you hit 2.0 seconds. A venom offense becomes viable at that point.

Serrice

0.07s at a 180 speed bardiche. 6-7 ssl's to get down to 1.94, another 6-7 to get to max. Whether or not the speed increase is percentage based or a flat value I haven't tested.

Illikaal

So...yeah. Either way, you're going to be gaining attack speed every round when you land a hit, regardless of how slow your Bardiche is. I don't see why you wouldn't go for a straight damage/penetration bardiche as Herculean, since you're just going to gain attack speed to make up for it anyway once you've stolen enough soul. 

Seir

Because rebounding, which slows down Carnifex immensely due to the lack of razeslash.

Serrice

A slow polearm offers more in the way of pressure, but is vulnerable to management of rebounding and shielding in a manner that forces them to just constantly spend balances razing. A fast polearm will help overcome these problems, but you'll have rubbish for damage. After checking the numbers myself and looking over logs of myself fighting other Carnifex, I suspect that most go with the former option despite the lack of a razeslash.

Barda

Also if your opponent shields or you miss a beat and hit rebounding knocking yourself out for a round you lose soul fast. It is like after five seconds it starts going back to the person. That and non trans Carnifex offense is pretty difficult or at least for me the opponent runs before I can do a viable offense to them but that could be like of venom combos just yet.

Illikaal

Honestly, Barda, we're not worried about non-trans Carnifex. This discussion is heavily revolving around those that are. 

Toz

As neutral balance, against other Carnifex especially, it's not so much a fight of who does more damage but who swings faster. I say to go with pure speed for the hinder, which means there's less chance of someone interrupting you for longer. And the difference between 2.3 base and mine, which is like 2.75, is 2-3 swings - my bashing halberd swings at 2.98 with 144 damage and like 119 speed, which is another 2-3 swings where I'm not doing a whole lot.

Daskalos

I just want an explanation why the class gets to penalize me because I -didn't- shieldwhore? I don't like the whole knocking uncon once my soul is low enough... I could pick up Carnifex and kill anyone with that tactic. And I do use rebounding pretty well - at least as well as Moirean does.

Caitlin

Perhaps like all classes, some do better against some while others just don't. I suffer against 2.5k lightning strikes from Lumi but I don't suffer against teradrim spam. All I can say is maybe use rebounding like I do against them, let them hit it or strip it and rebound once more. By which point they have lost at least 10 soul points and are slow again, then break their left arm. I have had no issues with the class except Luna and Borscin once or twice. But then I use the tactic of letting them waste balance and lose soul, then go to town on them. (Caitlin not being my main here).

Illikaal

You don't suffer 2.5k lightning strikes from Luminaries. 

You suffer 2.5k lightning strikes from Daskalos. 

Edit: Luna was the one person that gave me the most trouble as a Carnifex because of the overwhelming damage she could crank out, and because of how epteth/epseth used to work. I've only fought her once time since the change, and won. Borscin got facerolled because of his bad curing, and Xiuhcoatl...just runs a lot. 

I'm really going to be terrified if I ever meet a heavily artifacted Carnifex with really good curing.