Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE

Ishin

@Oleis I'm not really sure where you come up with the idea that our current progression isn't any fun. There are a few people who have made it through without complaint, and we're always taking ideas and feedback on it in order to make it more fun and interactive.

None of the tasks in there are terribly difficult for someone who the task fits(there's a pretty wide selection of stuff to do, for pkers, admin-type players, and those who just like to bash), and you don't even have to do all of them.

I don't really appreciate the attitude you're showing in your post, bro, and it's pretty out of character for the Oleis I know. If you haven't taken a look at our guild reqs and stuff, I suggest you do so, because your attitude is really just kinda shitty in your posts.

Roux

Class conversation aside, the Syssin guild's rank requirements are truly over the top in my opinion, and I've had a few characters try and make it there. It gets old real quick, and it just doesn't make sense to punish people loyal to the guild with gaining rank at a snail's pace. There's a reason why 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the guild's -active- players are made up of gr1 and gr2 characters.

Oh, and as far as options are concerned, there aren't any for the non-novice path. You either do it all or you don't progress.

Oleis

Ishin said:

@Oleis I'm not really sure where you come up with the idea that our current progression isn't any fun. There are a few people who have made it through without complaint, and we're always taking ideas and feedback on it in order to make it more fun and interactive.

None of the tasks in there are terribly difficult for someone who the task fits(there's a pretty wide selection of stuff to do, for pkers, admin-type players, and those who just like to bash), and you don't even have to do all of them.

I don't really appreciate the attitude you're showing in your post, bro, and it's pretty out of character for the Oleis I know. If you haven't taken a look at our guild reqs and stuff, I suggest you do so, because your attitude is really just kinda shitty in your posts.

I'm not referencing the current state of the guild. I was directly responding to Faerah's umbrage that guilds are told "what they can and can't do." I frankly can't see any situation in which she wasn't talking about how heavily we intervened into the Syssin guild a few months ago. It was her characterization of the situation that our interference was unnecessary or restrictive, when the truth is that the state of things was horrible. No guildfavours for over 2 weeks.

But we worked with Rou and Zaephlyn and made things better, and the Syssin guild over which you and Faerah have presided seems to be fine. I apologize for the confusion that reference created. I simply didn't want the current positive state to somehow overshadow the negativity of the old way.

Ezalor

@Daskalos it's not just a side thing. Syssin deny the class to darkies too. There are a few more darkie PKers who are being denied class now. I think it might legit be easier to get Monk class than Syssin for a darkie right now.

Ishin

@Oleis That's cool and all bro, but you say over the last six months we've been getting the stick for requirements, when in fact that isn't true at all. Faerah and I both started really playing again in middish January, and I took over somewhere near the end of February. Ever since then, it's been me and @Faerah(By and large Faerah, I just did a lot of head-nodding and commenting on stuff), who has been improving our progression ON HER OWN with input from guildmates, and the insinuation that 'over the last six months' we've been getting hacked on by Admin to lessen them presents a picture to those who -do not- actually know the reality that I certainly don't appreciate.

You also say this: Rather, it's the fact that being in a guild like that just isn't any fun. I mean...who are you to say that, man? That is pure opinion and you, like, probably don't even know. Do you lurk with Syssin GT on and eavesdrop on us? No, probably not. Do you see how energetic several(which is the large majority) of our lower-ranked guildmembers are excited about moving up.

Just about all of our active GR2 people are on the brink of getting promoted up to GR3, and I have yet to hear a SINGLE one of them say anything even remotely resembling 'this isn't fun'.

Aarbrok

I wont lie, anymore Ishin you come off like some fratbro with a popped collar and a case of natty ice in your approach to dealing with criticism.

Its...not flattering.

EDIT: Not trying to be a unicorns about it, just an observation as I dont think Oleis is being as...you say it seems. There were serious problems, stated, acknowledged that were before you and Faerah....this was well known and it has been worked on.

There are still some issues though even observed from the outside, those were being pointed out.

Serrice

I had a friend in the Syssin privately express that they thought the Syssin GR2->GR3 reqs were ridiculous. This was around... March/Aprilish.

Ishin

Aarbrok said:

I wont lie, anymore Ishin you come off like some fratbro with a popped collar and a case of natty ice in your approach to dealing with criticism.

Its...not flattering.

EDIT: Not trying to be a unicorns about it, just an observation as I dont think Oleis is being as...you say it seems.

I appreciate the insult, my man. Just another one on top of the pile that people have ever heaped on me. None of which I give a single fuck about.

I'm not angry. Everyone knows what I'm like when I get angry. I'm fairly sure that most of my posts are pretty clear and concise, and I'm picking out pieces from the posts of others and addressing them without strawmanning like a boss.

I didn't realize that me seeming that way invalidates my points, either. I'm debating, quite calmly, with another person.

Edit to add this: I think you should, @Serrice, tell your friend to come to us with any objections and stuff about progression. We're pretty open to criticism about it, and several things have been taken out of it as they've carried on, to make things -easier- for people to move up.

Serrice

They don't play anymore.

Roux

The last time that someone came to Ishin, IC with problems about progression, they were brushed off. This is when he was still GM. Sort of hard to say 'approach us' when the comments aren't taken seriously.

Ishin

Roux said:

The last time that someone came to Ishin, IC with problems about progression, they were brushed off. This is when he was still GM. Sort of hard to say 'approach us' when the comments aren't taken seriously.

When people say 'waaah this is too hard' and...it's something like eavesdrop on a basic conversation, I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to make that easier for you.

Roux

You're oversimplifying the statement to make less of it. I was bringing you a legitimate comment of concern, not bawling over the simple things. I know what the progression requirements are, and of all of them, that's really not the one that would come up as even an issue.

Stathan

I rage at getting accused of being a guild for of extortionists when it comes to darkies getting class. If you are trying to get class under the radar, you can expect most of the lifers to either, not compromise their morals, or charge obscene amounts at the risk of being caught. Even if there is no real way to catch them.

Ishin

@Stathan - Careful bro, next thing you know we'll have 3 pages of people downing your guild, the difficulty obtaining your class, etc, then folks hating on your progression even though from an outside perspective it doesn't seem all that hard at all.

Stathan

@Ishin - Except no. The hard part is people on the shadow side of the fence getting class and even that doesn't seem to be an issue give how many people turned you down and you still got it anyways. Our progression is reasonable if annoyingly repetative so you know what you're doing. If anything it's up to each individual mentor to give out the hard tasks.

Angwe

Ishin

Roux said:

The last time that someone came to Ishin, IC with problems about progression, they were brushed off. This is when he was still GM. Sort of hard to say 'approach us' when the comments aren't taken seriously.

Roux said:

Wow, thanks for that. I totally wanted everyone to know. I didn't come to you, hence me using 'them' 'they'. That is also not the only character I had in the guild.

Did you or did you not? I'm starting to get confused here.

Roux

Read. Look at what I said, and read. I never said I came to Ishin. Simple stuff there.

Aarbrok

I can vouch for interaction with @Kerryn, @Stathan, and others in the guild, the Abbess holds the fist of classing Monk, but allows the Prior beneath her the liberties as well.

I was a former monk of her monastery and asked for some refreshing of my forms to regain class recently, I gave justified reasoning, spoke well, and was not undead/vampire/against life.

Sentaari doesn't strike the wrong chord others have with classing, in fact they were willing to hear out my case before slapping down the NO stamp ultimately, though it took a long time to do it and I have been frustrated in the past with them, it was timing more than it was the process as a whole.

Ishin

Yeah, @Kerryn RP'd with me some too - though admittedly it was all via tells. Which is cool. Having an in-depth convo with someone counts too, imo.

Rashar

The best part is that this conversation isn't even about how hard it is to get Syssin skills, or Monk skills.

It's not even about how the Syssin respond to people who do manage to get them. I think they have a valid approach, and @ishin, @faerah, @ingram (I keep saying Ingram because I feel like we talked? It might have been @jensen) and everyone else that I've interacted with over it have handled it with class ( har har ) and made it interesting. Conflict isn't the problem. If people don't like the way Syssin respond to getting the skills, they can deal with it. They aren't griefing anybody over it.

The argument was whether or not apprenticeship should be logged.

Auresae

I think this is getting too fiery to continue. I'm not even gonna bother splitting threads and saying move on.

Stathan

New rage. How hypnotizing Auresae's sig is...all glory to hypnoshaq...

Moirean

Regarding the guild advancement requirements, have the old rules been changed? I was under the impression that we should be adhering to stuff that was laid down years ago, and I've always designed my guild stuff under these guidelines. I'm asking this as a genuine question - leaders news has been pretty quiet for a long time now, and it would be nice to give a "Hey aim for this" sort of post from the admin, maybe.


LEADERS NEWS #233
Date: 6/1/2007 at 17:08
From: Varian the Celestine
To : Everyone
Subj: Guild Requirements (mainly about novices)

I know this drives some of you crazy, but I have to bring it up again after spending the morning looking into complaints and guild requirements. Most people who play our games are casual players, who play an hour or two a day. Even that is a lot for most players. They
want to have fun playing the game, and some guilds are making the whole experience frustrating. For every player that emails me, 100 are quitting and not saying anything.

Here are some of the requirements that are just too much for a new player. I am not saying these cannot be done as they advance in the guild, not save it for much later in the guild, or make them all optional for extra rewards. Players have to get out of novicehood as
fast as possible.

- Know how to walk to multiple places all around the world. You may want them to be able to find the guildhall, but that is about it. It can take months and months to learn how to get around a text game.

- Requirements for personal histories or any kind of 'essay'. This is absolutely not allowed to require of novices, and only semi allowed for any kind of requirements. If they are new, they do not even have
an idea of the history of the game.

- Multiple or long interviews. Getting an interview for a player, that is on for a couple hours every other day is nearly impossible. Especially when the interviewers do not want to do it 'right now'. One interview, and your interviewers need to be accessible, and it really needs to just be a check in that they are doing ok and have done a few simple requirements.

- Minimum time requirements. Imagine I am a newbie, I just want to advance. What if I am done with the requirements, but I have to wait 3 or 4 more days just to ask for an interview, that I will probably have to wait a couple more days to do. Remove them for novices.

- Tons of reading requirements. At least for novices, this is lame. Players want to play the game, they want skills, and they want to go kill mobs. Players do not want to play a game when they have to read page after page of books in a guild library. A few help files are fine, beyond that is not. Save the reading for higher up requirements.

- 'Mentor' requirements. Not a real mentor, but an in-guild person they are trained by. This is really border-line, especially if your guild has a bunch of people that just do not talk to novices. New players are going to be extra shy too. This can be a suggestion, but not a
requirement.

- Not allowing players to use a skillset. This is huge. Why play a game and not be able to milk venoms, make enchantments, harvest, forge, get crystals, make a grove, etc. If this does not change, I will have to make optional ways for people to use these skills.

- Putting a player on probation after they finish novicehood. Why? You want to limit them from reading a news board that all your enemies probably have access to anyways? Do not put players on probation after novicehood, which is like saying 'Good job! Now, let me put you in jail.'

Here is a sample of some non guild specific requirements I would use.

To promote from novicehood:
THEY DO:
- Get level 10
- Deposit 500 gold to the guild. (HELP BANKS)
- Be able to find the guildhall
- Write a description for yourself (HELP DESCRIPTION)
- Be a citizen of WhateverCity
- Have some clothes
- Read HELP GUILDNAME, HELP ROLEPLAY
- Interview (which is really just a quick check they did those things)

THEY GET:
- Full guild membership
- Simple guild title (Squire, Page, Altar boy, etc)

Now, lets create some more ways for them to promote in the guild, while slowing adding on some of the other RP stuff that you want.

COOL RANK ONE
THEY DO:
- Get level 21
- Have healing stuff A, B, and C.
- Fight in a FFA or duel in the arena (win or lose)
- Have armour and whatever weapons the class uses.
- Know how to find the rat mob in the city.
- Get tattoos A, B, and C.
- Recommend learning these skills.
- Donate 1000 gold to the guild.
- Interview with a guild rep. (short, simple, sweet)

THEY GET:
- Better a standard guild title (Soldier, Priest, Wizard, etc)
- A guild favour

COOL RANK TWO
THEY DO:
- Get level 30
- Have all healing items.
- Read a 'single' book about the guild.
- Be able to walk to allied city or area.
- Complete simple quest A, B, and C
- Donate 2500 gold to the guild.
- Interview with a guild rep. (short, simple, sweet)

THEY GET:
- A better guild title (Knight, Mage, ect)
- Gets a special insider price on some of the items the guild can
make or get from other guilds.

COOL RANK THREE
THEY DO:
- Get level 50
- Write a history.
- Kill special bad mob dude
- Complete really cool quest A.
- Be able to walk to enemy city or area.
- Read a couple more guild books.
- Donate 10000 gold to the guild.
- Interview with a guild rep. (short, simple, sweet)

THEY GET:
- An even better guild title (Blademaster, Ether Wizard,
Necromancer, etc)
- Can join a special insider clan.
- A guild favour.

A couple things to note. All the reading and writing are spread out over several levels, so it is not something I have to do right now. I can bash or fight for a while, then come back and do some of these other things.

Other activities you can use to have players do other activities which help promote RP and such.

- Have requirements for how to become a novice aide.
- Have requirements for how to become a secretary.
- Have requirements for how to form or join a special group or subguild within the guild. (fighters, ambassadors, trainers, bashers, packs, historians, explorers, questors, etc)
- Special rewards for reading or writing guild history or other books.
- Special rewards for doing other things that promote RP within the guild, like killing mobs that your guild do not like, or killing certain players (within PK rules).
- Requirements to have any prefix/suffix you want.

In short folks, make it fun.

It is a game, not a job.

Penned by my hand on the 24th of Lanosian, in the year 217 MA.

Ingram

In terms of guild advancement, when I put my head down and actually focused on getting through it, and it took me all of.. a couple days. The most stringent requests I can see are essence gathering, and that's because I personally hate bashing.

@Faerah‌ has always been helpful in that respect, taking me with her to hammer out an elemental globe for the essence, and I can personally recall her doing it with other people. She listens to feedback, changes things around, and has altered the requirements at least once to gear it more towards players' preferences when they've complained. She's given me assignments on a couple occasions to remake, edit, or add things to interviews and missions so they're more interesting, and engaging. I don't see the issue with the reqs. Holy shit, you can't do them in an hour. Aaaah, oh no. They're still fun, they help newbies learn, and most are geared towards working on skills you'd need as a Syssin. I'd wager she's busted the most ass than I've seen in the guild in a long time, and she's working to make it fun, interesting, and engaging.

My problem with everyone and their mother having Syssin class is when everybody is a spy, it makes it kind of pointless. It undermines the whole shtick of the guild, to touch on the original subject.

Teani

Ezalor said:

@Daskalos it's not just a side thing. Syssin deny the class to darkies too. There are a few more darkie PKers who are being denied class now. I think it might legit be easier to get Monk class than Syssin for a darkie right now.

Just going to echo this, because it's very important. People on all sides are denied, PKers as well as those with RP reasons. *shrug*

And sorry for adding my 2 cents so late. <.<

Nola

I base my requirements in the guild around those because I agree with all of them, not necessarily because they were admin-issued. The only part the Daru probably don't adhere to is the 'long interview' part, but I've tried to make it as short and concise as I can while also not neglecting the guild's RP.

The points made are all very valid points when it comes to new players. There is still a lot of flexibility to be had within those 'restrictions', so as a player (obviously I'm not responding as an admin) I don't really see why anyone would want those rulings to change since they promote a better environment for new players to get adjusted and familiar with sooner, and easier.

Aarbrok

@Nola the Daru are awesome, I didn't stick with it because it did not fit Aarbrok and I realized quickly that the current leader upon my joining was just looking for votes to stay in a position, but during that short stint, I saw some really amazing folks there with a great advancement plan, I think you could do for getting more novices off the bat with the awesome group you have available.

Erzsebet

Nola said:

The only part the Daru probably don't adhere to is the 'long interview' part, but I've tried to make it as short and concise as I can while also not neglecting the guild's RP. .

Threee houuuuuurs. >.>;

That said, it was an entertaining fun three hours that I don't at all regret, 'cause yay, RP, but I have nothing better to do than RP for extensive periods of time. Hours, RL days, whatev. It's a bit daunting for the people who only really like to do it in smaller bursts before going back to their bashing or PK or whatever else.

And-or for people who have to go to bed by a certain time for jobs or school or wherever.

Nola

Yeah! It does get very long, very often. I'm always willing to give people breaks in between because I understand how rough it gets. I've been recently considering some new ideas that wouldn't end up diluting the importance of the topics we cover but still not take an age and a day. That said, it has become a running joke of 'trauma' for all the now-established people in the guild who have had to sit through my interviews.

It's practically a part of Daru culture now.