Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE

Moirean

I'm not worked up to the point of froth and foaming. I was being silly more than anything else, really. I do, however, think it's reasonable to expect our hobbies - especially ones we invest money into - to be fun and give us a variety of ways to enjoy our time spent in them (this isn't the days of vanilla wow and resistance gear farming anymore).

Toz

Eleanor said:

I remember trying to explain to my mum how serious Aetolia was, once, when I was very fifteen.

"Well you see, mum, there's this game- yes, the one that's made of words- and I interact with it in words, but I can pay money and get special words that I wouldn't be able to get otherwise. Well, no, they're not imaginary words or anything, it's just they say I'm doing things and... yes it's important, mum, can I have some money for credits? Why not?"

But seriously my sleep-deprived moral here is, I think getting worked up over a few special words that you could get the same effect of with some patience and you didn't even pay that much for them anyway is a bit crazy when you actually get metacognitive about what you're doing.

Everything can be made to sound dumb like that, though. Religion, politics, race, gender, sex, whatever. Just a matter of perception, isn't it?

Rashar

The few people I've taken the time to explain this game to, I've simply left it as, "I'm essentially writing a book, but every other character is being written by another person."

Omei

Toz said:

Eleanor said:

I remember trying to explain to my mum how serious Aetolia was, once, when I was very fifteen.

"Well you see, mum, there's this game- yes, the one that's made of words- and I interact with it in words, but I can pay money and get special words that I wouldn't be able to get otherwise. Well, no, they're not imaginary words or anything, it's just they say I'm doing things and... yes it's important, mum, can I have some money for credits? Why not?"

But seriously my sleep-deprived moral here is, I think getting worked up over a few special words that you could get the same effect of with some patience and you didn't even pay that much for them anyway is a bit crazy when you actually get metacognitive about what you're doing.

Everything can be made to sound dumb like that, though. Religion, politics, race, gender, sex, whatever. Just a matter of perception, isn't it?

It can, but it's not a terrible way to frame things! Very de-stressing.

Lim

Toz said:

Eleanor said:

I remember trying to explain to my mum how serious Aetolia was, once, when I was very fifteen.

"Well you see, mum, there's this game- yes, the one that's made of words- and I interact with it in words, but I can pay money and get special words that I wouldn't be able to get otherwise. Well, no, they're not imaginary words or anything, it's just they say I'm doing things and... yes it's important, mum, can I have some money for credits? Why not?"

But seriously my sleep-deprived moral here is, I think getting worked up over a few special words that you could get the same effect of with some patience and you didn't even pay that much for them anyway is a bit crazy when you actually get metacognitive about what you're doing.

Everything can be made to sound dumb like that, though. Religion, politics, race, gender, sex, whatever. Just a matter of perception, isn't it?

Or money. Why are we all believing in tiny pieces of paper, and promises made by people and institutions? Why is a banana worth the same as $1?

It's because of the number of people who buy in to the idea. The more people who agree that that piece of paper has value, the more value it has. Same thing with muds, to a lesser extent. If you agree that having that imaginary word artifact gives you value, and other players without the artifact agree to play with you (and thus letting you enjoy the advantage of the artifact over them), then yes, it has value.

Kaleigh

Rashar said:

"I'm essentially writing a book, but every other character is being written by another person."

^- using this description from now on!
Everyone I've ever tried to explain the way Aetolia is just looks at me funny and says 'you've got some imagination' to which I just smile and nod.

Aryanne

@rashar - I've most often explained it as "writing stories round-Robin, only on your turn, you ONLY get to write for -one- character's actions and speech, and then you get to choose (in a way) what other writers you feel like writing the other parts of the story with!"

Eleanor

I usually try "Remember Zork? It's that, but an MMO."

Unfortunately the success rate for people who remember zork is pretty low.

Toz

Text WoW hasn't failed me yet.

Stathan

Rage at 21 rhinos. That is all.

Haern

Toz said:

Text WoW hasn't failed me yet.

The Grand Artifice was merely a setback.

Omei

You no take jungles!

Erzsebet

I've always just said 'It's writing an interactive novel with other people'.

I rage that I managed to put a flame sigil on my artifact staff (which used to be a box) and now can no longer wield it. :<

Moirean

The massive wheel comes to a stop with a sickly flash of green light. It shudders for a moment before rewarding you with Skill Increase.

Such a wasted wheel spin if you're trans. I wish it gave lessons instead.

Faerah

I rage about the way Aetolia handles dispensing class. Either go autoclass or let Guild track who is giving class out. This limbo between the two is a bunch of nonsensical hogwash that I know, for a fact, players have been complaining about for years. How one can conceptually give something they do not yet have themselves is... Anyway, that's my rage for the day.

Rashar

I don't understand how it's a limbo, @faerah. It's not automated because.. well, I assume the admin want it to be something handled with RP or something. That doesn't mean it should be something logged. The only sense that makes is from an OOC GL perspective. ICly, what are you going to ask for?

"I would like for this magical tablet to etch the names of whoever teaches anybody how to hypnotize, no matter who or where they are in the world."

I don't think the guild should be able to track who gives the class out, and I don't know where the justification for that comes from, aside from you being Syssin, the Syssin being notoriously stingy hands with it, and you wanting a way to protect that RP. I understand your frustration when people show up one day ghosted out, but what other option is there? Track it so you can just kick anybody who gives the class out?

That takes away all potential for someone who has a legitimate desire or reason to actually RP giving someone the class on the low. It's not -your- Syssin RP, but it's their RP. If the admin wanted the skillset to be something sacred that cannot be taught, they would take away that option. Until then, no matter what you want to say about it being some sacred gift to Severn, it's ultimately just a skill set just like any other.

Faerah

I need an RP explanation on how someone who does not have the class themselves, can give something they do not have. For example, Rajazel gave class to Ashmer and Infin. When I booted Rajazel he lost class because he did not have it to begin with. That makes, no logical, sense - no matter what your RP is. The defense of this system is so that Guilds do not have a stranglehold on class. I am actually fine, OOC, with Guilds not having a stranglehold on class. Put autoclass in and I'm peachy because then its a silly mechanic I don't have to worry about -and- the Admin can stop telling GMs what tasks they can and cannot do and how 'easy' or 'hard' getting GR3 is because its no longer tied to class. That's how its limbo - because the Guilds are the ones tied to giving out class and because of that we cannot do 'x, y, & z' but we also get to deal with trying to figure out whose giving out class under the radar and - more often than not- its someone who logically shouldn't be able to give it in the first place. If it was "need class to give class" then it wouldn't bother me so much - but they won't do that either because then they're afraid Guilds just wouldn't promote people to GR3 at all.

Erzsebet

Eh. You may not have class, but you have the skills/knowledge to pass on to other people past being a novice.

Guild's don't need more control of who is able to give the class out. It may not be the case now, but in my experience it's always been -easier- to get class as a non-syssin 'legally' or otherwise, than it has been to get class as a guilded one.

Haven

This topic makes me so sad.

Moirean

I would guess that admin guiding people towards certain levels of requirements is more about newbie retention than about class availability. If a new player has to spend RL weeks struggling to advance, they aren't likely to stay around in the game.

Oleis

I'm going to level with you -- the basic stranglehold the Syssin guild has put on its class isn't the main motivator for the level of scrutiny the guild's advancement practices have received in the last six months. Rather, it's the fact that being in a guild like that just isn't any fun. It's one thing to tell experienced players to avoid a work-heavy guild, because whatever.

But a total newbie rolls in, thinks the Syssin sound awesome, and ends up with a huge list of dedicated responsibilities? That's so not fun that it's basically anti-fun, and someone new to Aetolia or new to MUDs in general is going to peace out of there in no time. Chances are they won't bother to find another guild.

So if your argument really IS about class, put your money where your mouth is. Start handing out Syssin class to anyone who wants it. Break the limbo. If you're frustrated with the struggles of your guild, that's a different conversation with some very different context.

Haven

Just give us autoclass via NPCs.

Ezalor

On the flip side, you have pure PKers (who aren't really interested in RP) being denied classes too because they don't want to RP it out or their RP isn't "good enough." There has to be some way for those people to get class too without going to unreasonable lengths. Making class auto-dispensed would effectively phase out guilds (isn't that what happened in Achaea?) while logging class give-outs is a really bad idea IMO.

Faerah

Oleis said:

I'm going to level with you -- the basic stranglehold the Syssin guild has put on its class isn't the main motivator for the level of scrutiny the guild's advancement practices have received in the last six months. Rather, it's the fact that being in a guild like that just isn't any fun. It's one thing to tell experienced players to avoid a work-heavy guild, because whatever.

But a total newbie rolls in, thinks the Syssin sound awesome, and ends up with a huge list of dedicated responsibilities? That's so not fun that it's basically anti-fun, and someone new to Aetolia or new to MUDs in general is going to peace out of there in no time. Chances are they won't bother to find another guild.

So if your argument really IS about class, put your money where your mouth is. Start handing out Syssin class to anyone who wants it. Break the limbo. If you're frustrated with the struggles of your guild, that's a different conversation with some very different context.

I actually don't have any problem with the Guild itself, we have a decent group of players and we try and keep things engaging and fun.

What I made, was just a rage post that referenced another rage post from two years ago on the same subject matter way before today, or the last six months. None of that is relevant. Thusly, I am unapologetic in not feeling compelled to "put my money where my mouth is" or defend myself against some ulterior motive or struggles with my guild.

I'm not sure why this got personal so quickly, but as long as the mechanic is how it is, I don't see the way the Guild handles it IC changing much. We can argue about the merits of something I find objectively silly all day, but if it's going to get off track and personal, especially from an Admin, I am going to bow out.

Oleis

Faerah said:

I need an RP explanation on how someone who does not have the class themselves, can give something they do not have. . . . Put autoclass in and I'm peachy because then its a silly mechanic I don't have to worry about -and- the Admin can stop telling GMs what tasks they can and cannot do and how 'easy' or 'hard' getting GR3 is because its no longer tied to class. That's how its limbo - because the Guilds are the ones tied to giving out class and because of that we cannot do 'x, y, & z' but we also get to deal with trying to figure out whose giving out class under the radar and - more often than not- its someone who logically shouldn't be able to give it in the first place. If it was "need class to give class" then it wouldn't bother me so much - but they won't do that either because then they're afraid Guilds just wouldn't promote people to GR3 at all.

You were clearly referencing the Syssin's repeated struggles with us about advancement. I simply wanted to make sure you got an appropriate response to your complaint.

Xavin

@Faerah I don't want this to sound like a personal attack, I really don't. But everything I've heard about the syssin's progression requirements just to get to GR3 and achieve class suggests that it's a bit difficult to do, above and beyond what most other guilds require. Getting to GR3 should be easy. You shouldn't be worrying too much about who has class, because really it's not a big deal. I mean, there are a ton of people on either side of the game that got the class quickly and, likely, quietly.

Rashar

Eh. For every GR1 person giving out class, there is someone who 'has' the class at GR3+ doing it as well. Don't pretend there isn't. If your guild requirements at those ranks revolve around making it hard to give out class and not just learning how to be a Syssin, you're probably wrong.

Don't pretend like half the guild members that are so vocally opposed to Syssin skills being given out wouldn't change their tune if I went and threw some real credits at them. Sure, there are a couple that would refuse. Maybe.

Don't pretend like people getting the skills actually -changes- anything about your guild, or your quality of life. In much the same way as Duiranites don't really -need- to reply by fixing exterminated rooms, you don't -have- to do shit about this either. You're not getting the class back. You're not frying my brain and taking the knowledge from me. You're pursuing conflict that makes sense to your guild.

It is your prerogative as a guild and as players to hunt those who get the skills and to pursue those who give it away. It is a valid IC approach, and it has been fun for me on the receiving end of it, with conversations with @faerah and @ishin and maybe @ingram? Someone else, anyway. A few fights, etc. So don't think I'm hating on your approach.

It is -also- your prerogative as a guild and players to just -not-. Enemy if you want, hunt if you want, RP if you want. Or just fucking don't. At this point there are just so many people with the skills that you either need to give it up as a lost cause or else recognize that there is more to being Syssin than having the skills, as @alexina stated in her reply to your similar gripe in 2012.

Either way, your guild's RP doesn't give you the need or the right to have what is essentially an OOC method of punishing people for what is ultimately an IC thing. A magic mirror that hangs on your wall and says, "Rajazel just taught Ashmer how to do things!" makes no sense.

Sure, people get the skills through OOC means. That's going to continue to happen, as it happens with so many other things around here. There are also people who get it through IC means, and want that opportunity. Who are you to take that from them?

Sure, people have joined the guild to learn the skills with the intention of leaving. That can absolutely be a valid RP. Don't say it is abusing a mechanic, because it happens in real life. Terrorists join organizations to gain their skills or learn things. Gangs send their members into the military to learn skills that they will bring back with them. That list could continue.

We don't build the game around a few people who RP poorly or don't RP.

I understand your frustration, but your suggested answer does not seem reasonable, or realistic.

Haven

http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/1148/class-dispensing/p1

Daskalos

Hey, I got enemied to the guild for 'skill theft' when I was given it by someone who is STILL in the guild. The only two guilds that are an issue are Syssin \ Monk with handing out the class. Just give each side their own flavor of monk\syssin and be done with it. Problems solved.

Rashar

I do love the skill theft argument.

I got it from -your- guild, bro. It is literally impossible to steal the skills. It requires the consent of someone who has them.

I could -maybe- see skill theft as a charge when you quit the guild and keep them, since I assume there are vows or implications or whatever going on there. But, whateves.