Spirit/Shadow PK divide

Moirean

Wait are you really a Yeleni?

Jensen

yep

Xavin

Even still, though, there were and are plenty of people in Duiran that would and did have a problem with working with teradrim. Likewise, there are people in duiran that think it was stupid for Duiran people to accept help from a necromancer - the bulk of Duiran, I would think, has/had a problem with it, but I could be wrong. And even then it creates strain on duiran-enorian relations which...well, we've discussed why that's an issue to death.

Moirean

I'm glad I'm too distracted to ever examine anyone.

Jensen

Moirean said:

I'm glad I'm too distracted to ever examine anyone.

Half the time I dont wear pants

Moirean

Xavin said:

Even still, though, there were and are plenty of people in Duiran that would and did have a problem with working with teradrim. Likewise, there are people in duiran that think it was stupid for Duiran people to accept help from a necromancer - the bulk of Duiran, I would think, has/had a problem with it, but I could be wrong. And even then it creates strain on duiran-enorian relations which...well, we've discussed why that's an issue to death.

Well, there certainly is an IG argument to be made against that mindset, though. Duiran, for example, seems to view Moirean as far more of an enemy than they do Haven. She's a necromancer/soul stealer, but he actively burns down forests. Would you side with a necromancer if it meant saving the forest, or would it be better to let the forest die and remain true to your beliefs? If it worth trading your soul for x/y/z tangible outcome, etc. It's ideals vs pragmatism and both outlooks can be played out validly IC, although I've noticed that there is more of a tendency with the more pragmatic ends-justify-the-means approaches to open the door to OOC stuff, and also invite accusations (even if unfair and unwarranted) of metagaming. Maybe the issue is that none of the lifer divine seem to be really preaching a "do whatever it takes" sort of approach, so there doesn't seem to be anyone up-top condoning more radical role mingling, which is also a bit understandable because, while it can make for some great stories, it does (as mentioned) potentially open the door to some derpy stuff if handled badly.

Haven

While a fifth city could be fun and something I'd jump at in a heartbeat, regardless of whether or not we got the playerbase to support such an expansion again, I do not think it is necessary in order to achieve the same effect now.

The power is in our hands to make things engaging for ourselves and others. It's within our reach to spice things up and generate a new dynamic from time to time. We saw that when the Syssin became the Syndicate for a while. We witnessed it when Duiran made its transformation into a more feral and less snugly organization. History has shown us repeatedly that all it takes is a good proportion of willing and or influential players who don't mind the gamble.

Unfortunately, for this particular endeavor, it does not seem that we do or at least have enough of them interested to make a real difference anyway. Which is... disappointing to me but perfectly fine and within their rights.

Xavin

@Moirean - the thing about Haven, though, is that he remains an enemy of Duiran. He has been an enemy since he burnt down the forests, what, a year ago? Maybe more? And any time he has tried to change that, we've said 'you need to prove to us that you're sorry' and he hasn't been willing to do so. So we keep viewing him as an enemy.

Jensen

To that end, the alignment with Eno was always described that way. Cities are very anti nature and consume quite a bit from it to survive. I got told by Haern that Sentinels shouldnt live in Ashtan because its a city, but Eno was fine since they actively fight undeath.

Moirean

Haven said:

While a fifth city could be fun and something I'd jump at in a heartbeat, regardless of whether or not we got the playerbase to support such an expansion again, I do not think it is necessary in order to achieve the same effect now.

The power is in our hands to make things engaging for ourselves and others. It's within our reach to spice things up and generate a new dynamic from time to time. We saw that when the Syssin became the Syndicate for a while. We witnessed it when Duiran made its transformation into a more feral and less snugly organization. History has shown us repeatedly that all it takes is a good proportion of willing and or influential players who don't mind the gamble.

Unfortunately, for this particular endeavor, it does not seem that we do or at least have enough of them interested to make a real difference anyway. Which is... disappointing to me but perfectly fine and within their rights.

Changing your org's internal culture and outlook is very different than changing the relationships between orgs.

Jensen

Xavin said:

@Moirean - the thing about Haven, though, is that he remains an enemy of Duiran. He has been an enemy since he burnt down the forests, what, a year ago? Maybe more? And any time he has tried to change that, we've said 'you need to prove to us that you're sorry' and he hasn't been willing to do so. So we keep viewing him as an enemy.

It's close to 2 IRL years ago

Moirean

Xavin said:

@Moirean - the thing about Haven, though, is that he remains an enemy of Duiran. He has been an enemy since he burnt down the forests, what, a year ago? Maybe more? And any time he has tried to change that, we've said 'you need to prove to us that you're sorry' and he hasn't been willing to do so. So we keep viewing him as an enemy.

Eh, you're being too literal. I was using it as an example of different mindsets and approaches lifers can take - the stalwart "stand by your guns, even if it means stuff may die or be lost", or the more mercenary "break some eggs to make some glowing, beautiful age of dawn omelettes."

Right now, a lot of lifers are this very odd mix of the two (at least to an outside eye) - they seem to want to be harsh and gritty and even corrupt in their zealous pursuit of things, but they also seem to want to keep their hands clean, ie they'd never consider using an Undead to harm lots of Undead, or corruptly justifying a way to work with Spinesreach to ensure BL's downfall. As I've said, us Spireans don't really care. BL may have demanding vampire standards and stuff, but we'll use any tool that fits in the North. So, yes, there's RP potential there, maybe...

Haven said:

The power is in our hands to make things engaging for ourselves and others. It's within our reach to spice things up and generate a new dynamic from time to time. We saw that when the Syssin became the Syndicate for a while. We witnessed it when Duiran made its transformation into a more feral and less snugly organization. History has shown us repeatedly that all it takes is a good proportion of willing and or influential players who don't mind the gamble.

Unfortunately, for this particular endeavor, it does not seem that we do or at least have enough of them interested to make a real difference anyway. Which is... disappointing to me but perfectly fine and within their rights.

...but as I've said, it would still mechanically screw your org over for things like PK and ylem and would be pretty suicidal for a leader to push. The admin have set us up in this red-v-blue way, and bucking that might be fun for a bit, but we'd also see people upset beyond just IC, and insanely frustrated by the imbalances it would create, both politically and in combat (PK is not balanced to consider spirit skills working alongside shadow, for example). Simply doing it just because or "to make things engaging" isn't enough and is pretty darn selfish, imo. I'm not going to tear people out of their guilds or cities and force them to suddenly be enemies with their friends just because it maybe might be interesting to try something new. That's way less engaging, in my view, than any half-baked side-crossing alliance. It would upset LOTS of people, especially since the sub-orgs (guilds/houses) span both cities, so there would need to be some HELLA worthwhile payouts to breaking established alliances...and without admin backing for that, I really find it hard to see that there would be.

Auresae

Haven said:

While a fifth city could be fun and something I'd jump at in a heartbeat

Duh. If we made it, it would be the only city you won't be enemied to.

Serrice

Clearly all that's required for Duiran and Spinesreach to be better is a forestry department and a responsible land-use plan.

Strung

If only Spinesreach was run by someone crazy enough to let neutral players use their ylem stuff?

Xavin

@Strung mechanically non-citizens cannot utilize a city's ylem effects.

Strung

Xavin said:

@Strung mechanically non-citizens cannot utilize a city's ylem effects.

I see, maybe we could request a change, as a bay step towards having less polarized options. It might bring back rogues

Serrice

Don't like rogues. Fie onto them.

Haven

Moirean said:

@Moirean - the thing about Haven, though, is that he remains an enemy of Duiran. He has been an enemy since he burnt down the forests, what, a year ago? Maybe more? And any time he has tried to change that, we've said 'you need to prove to us that you're sorry' and he hasn't been willing to do so. So we keep viewing him as an enemy.

Eh, you're being too literal. I was using it as an example of different mindsets and approaches lifers can take - the stalwart "stand by your guns, even if it means stuff may die or be lost", or the more mercenary "break some eggs to make some glowing, beautiful age of dawn omelettes." Right now, a lot of lifers are this very odd mix of the two (at least to an outside eye) - they seem to want to be harsh and gritty and even corrupt in their zealous pursuit of things, but they also seem to want to keep their hands clean, ie they'd never consider using an Undead to harm lots of Undead, or corruptly justifying a way to work with Spinesreach to ensure BL's downfall. As I've said, us Spireans don't really care. BL may have demanding vampire standards and stuff, but we'll use any tool that fits in the North. So, yes, there's RP potential there, maybe...

The power is in our hands to make things engaging for ourselves and others. It's within our reach to spice things up and generate a new dynamic from time to time. We saw that when the Syssin became the Syndicate for a while. We witnessed it when Duiran made its transformation into a more feral and less snugly organization. History has shown us repeatedly that all it takes is a good proportion of willing and or influential players who don't mind the gamble. Unfortunately, for this particular endeavor, it does not seem that we do or at least have enough of them interested to make a real difference anyway. Which is... disappointing to me but perfectly fine and within their rights.

...but as I've said, it would still mechanically screw your org over for things like PK and ylem and would be pretty suicidal for a leader to push. The admin have set us up in this red-v-blue way, and bucking that might be fun for a bit, but we'd also see people upset beyond just IC, and insanely frustrated by the imbalances it would create, both politically and in combat (PK is not balanced to consider spirit skills working alongside shadow, for example). Simply doing it just because or "to make things engaging" isn't enough and is pretty darn selfish, imo. I'm not going to tear people out of their guilds or cities and force them to suddenly be enemies with their friends just because it maybe might be interesting to try something new. That's way less engaging, in my view, than any half-baked side-crossing alliance. It would upset LOTS of people, especially since the sub-orgs (guilds/houses) span both cities, so there would need to be some HELLA worthwhile payouts to breaking established alliances...and without admin backing for that, I really find it hard to see that there would be.

I was under the impression that the bulk of Ylem is obtained via minor leylines not lessers. Lesser leylines are and have always been primarily a girth measuring contest between cities from what I can tell. Even if that weren't the case, I have to ask: are there seriously any cities hurting in Ylem at this point that they couldn't take a break for a while to pursue other interests of they were so inclined? I do not believe so but I could be wrong here. So I'm not entirely sure where this idea of being mechanically screwed and committing suicide is coming into place. I personally think that changing up the dynamics from time to time (note I'm not arguing for a permanent shift in another direction) would be a healthy progress to the story and gameplay for most if not all. It would stimulate political intrigue and roleplay. It would allow players to explore new possibilities and make their characters even more complex and compelling. It could potentially create even richer histories for future generations to look back on to frown at or applaud. It makes the world more realistic and alive as opposed to the static "we're friends forever even when you're spitting in my face and essentially making me look like a big hypocrite."

Stathan

We need 2 more cities. 1 for Life/Undeath recruiting that could be a good starting place or Newbies or for people who want to convert and or switch sides. I can explain that more if people are interested.

Second city would have to be like Switzerland. With Nukes. A no violence zone to help aide in treaties and so forth to try and change the dynamic of the game a bit. A part time alliance between the Syssin and Enorian for example, or something like that. If you attack another person there, the guards flatten you. No bearing on lightie or darkie. You attack you die. Period. Would also make a good meeting place for people asking for the cure that aren't apt to go to city 1 as they are afraid of being flattened.

Moirean

Half of Spinesreach belongs to BL guilds and houses and vice versa. The Carnifex have members in both BL and Spines and property in both org's territories. Iosyne's order is made up of members from both cities. How do you propose I break this up in a way that everyone will ENJOY - people don't want to be forced out of their guilds and cities and houses, be split from friends and IG spouses, lose their estates, etc. It's not simply something to try out for fun because it's possible. There would be huge ramifications, including PK ones. Lessers may not be NEEDED for ylem, but they are the core conflict mechanic in the game and the main source of PK. They should be fun and telling my org - on top of making them quit their cities or guilds - "guys, I'm going to change stuff up, hope you don't mind getting your butts kicked and/or siding with people you've been antagonistic with for RL years" just is not going to fly.

Serrice

Idk, when Luna was running the show and they were PKing BL at lessers (and Duinorian, it was a toss-up whether or not they had enough people or not to take them together -- they definitely had enough to take the lifer orgs 1 on 1) it seemed to work out fine for a couple of weeks.

Jensen

Carni's could also autobash you to death at the time

Moirean

It's not just about the PK balance of individual fights. It's that you're forcing people to pick between orgs and lose org membership - our orgs are all mingled together, and you can't just easily step back and say that Spines and BL are fighting now, when half of Spines is Carnifex, Indorani and in houses (all BL orgs). It might have been fun for a few weeks, but when I got back, the city was pretty gutted, I assume partially because of that choice between city and guild that was forced - and also because vampire houses were forced to go BL. Back when BL and Spines were last at odds, Spinesreach still had vampire houses.

Also, I get that people may not agree with points, but can you please try to post explaining why? It's kinda rude to just go through marking disagree but offering no feedback or counterpoints. That's more of a general forums request.

Daskalos

That's exactly what happened when Duiran turned around -- Enorian had a -mass- exodus of Sentinels.

Moirean

Well, I don't think what Haven wants is something that's even remotely feasible for either side, but I don't think he's looking at things from a leadership standpoint. There also seems to be a tone of derision included in that, and it's making me a bristle a bit.

Angwe

A change that may be messy and hard, but will stabilize is better than an unsustainable status quo. That is why I'm disagreeing.

Moirean

...But it's never going to stabilize without admin support. Tethers stop it. Combat balancing stops it. The Gods stop it. Spinesreach and Duiran, for example, deciding to team up together is just not going to work in the long run if the admin don't want it to happen, as there are way too many mechanics preventing that. That's why I brought up the example of Carni going anti-Undead. Like, sure, in theory, I could suddenly declare that the guild is, but that really is not something that can - or should - be allowed. It's too messy, it's bad for player retention, etc.

Aarbrok

I do like that my argument when people call Aarbrok a Necromancer is...
"Dont be silly, I am a Numerologist, not a Necromancer."

..and it usually suffices, because gurl, he ain't no Indo.

Though in that regard, I often RP with Duiran, because I have ties there, promises, obligations.
I get plenty of guff from them for my choices, but they are also civil enough to know those choices were my characters, full knowing of repercussions. I encourage more RP with Duiran, you just have to be truthful with your RP, and have it explained and they are a reasonable sort. I even was convinced to drop everything but non-neutral classes save for Cabalist, because if you play a Cabalist you know....

We are not Necros. IN fact Cabal teaches a very awesome take on our abilities, and if you have seen some of the new techniques, they have even changed our Decay to look Non-Necromancy.

Xavin

Aarbrok said:

I do like that my argument when people call Aarbrok a Necromancer is...
"Dont be silly, I am a Numerologist, not a Necromancer."

..and it usually suffices, because gurl, he ain't no Indo.

Though in that regard, I often RP with Duiran, because I have ties there, promises, obligations.
I get plenty of guff from them for my choices, but they are also civil enough to know those choices were my characters, full knowing of repercussions. I encourage more RP with Duiran, you just have to be truthful with your RP, and have it explained and they are a reasonable sort. I even was convinced to drop everything but non-neutral classes save for Cabalist, because if you play a Cabalist you know....

We are not Necros. IN fact Cabal teaches a very awesome take on our abilities, and if you have seen some of the new techniques, they have even changed our Decay to look Non-Necromancy.

Here's the problem with that argument. Even if they -have- changed the flavor messages for Cabalist class necromancy abilities, they're still -necromancy- abilities. If mechanics trump roleplay, like we are so often told, then in this instance the mechanics trump the roleplay that a cabalist is a numerologist, not a necromancer. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a huge difference between an indorani and a cabalist. I just feel like the fact that they maintain a skill called necromancy, and have access to skills in that ability set that include cannibalism, soulstorm, gravehands, soulcage, gravechill, rot, and others means that you just don't get to ignore the fact that they are necromancers in addition to whatever else they have.