Spirit/Shadow PK divide

Erzsebet

Werewolves are not on the dark-side now? And newbs can't even become werewolves straight out of the gate anymore, so there are not a significant number of new people joining and becoming darkie because yay werewolves.

Rashar

I don't think anybody said that. We're just saying it can't be used as a significant light-side draw. Or 'life' side, whatever you want to call it.

Ishin

I'll agree that the lifers need some kind of hook as well. Ideally, each -city- will have its own hook. Loch has all the big-time vampires and all the big-time vampire houses. Spines can have uh...undeath or something. Duiran, were creatures. Enorian can have something that sparkles when it walks into the sun but isn't a vampire.

In my ideal game each city would be on its own, but honestly, things just don't seem to be panning out that way. 1v3 simplifies down into 1v1 if two cities join together, and that kinda seems how things have split. I wish it could go to 1v3, or like, if only certain cities could challenge for lessers in certain places, with some central zones being capable of free-for-alls. Western Ithmia is central-ish, Siroccians, the highway, and maybe like Liruma/Aureliana.

Serrice

We should just all gang up against BL. I for one am very interested in seeing how vivisect works with mass trample spam from Sentinel raloths.

Rashar

I guess it's just a pbase issue, from what I've been told.

Because I'd really like to see a 'neutral' city. There is so much potential there. You could still have good or evil people live there, or people that truly were neutral. You know.. like a real city.

Ashmer

We had one of those. Now it's the Ashtan Bog.

Xavin

Ashtan tried to be that once. It didn't work out well.

Rashar

Yeah, the only story I've heard is that it skewed things in war. Except, no war anymore anyway. I dunno.

Moirean

HUSH YOU IT WAS GLORIOUS I MISS MY PIRATES

Setne

Ew undeath.

Rashar

I just think it's kind of meh that on the life side of things, you have Enorian, which if you're a slightly shady, "Get things done the hard way" kind of guy like Rashar is, people get all hairy-eyed at you. Even the non zealots are a lot of times really rigid about things that make me roll my eyes and sigh at. If only because, eh, you don't not RP (or not do) X because of Y reason but then also pretend like you're super duper doing X all the time, and if I'm not doing X ( which nobody actually does ) and also not -pretending- to do X, then I must be a villain.

Spinesreach is supposed to be 'neutral' (or claimed to be by a lot of people, I don't know if that was the intent) but it is on the whole lumped right into the Bloodlochian Horde in the public eye. No lifer guild or Order will let you live there, and -most- people in Enorian aren't going to consider you anything but a bad guy if you're there either.

Then we have Duiran, which is maybe a 'neutral' place although still life based, but it's so specifically themed. I don't want to have to play a wilds/forestal/Dendara/whatever other catch they have just to have a more 'neutrally aligned' character that isn't automatically associated with being an evil blood sucker or whatever.

Angwe

Me and another player had a conversation about this very thing last night. They are very frustrated with their organization because, while they WANT to be in a Light-aligned organization, Duiran's feral savagery thing isn't for them, nor is Enorian's rigid zealotry.

While I can't speak for this person, I imagine that being able to work in a more neutral setting with a smaller group of like-minded individuals would be preferable to being forced to either go to one of the two very defined, polarized options, go rogue or go darkside.

Daskalos

The problem with neutrality is that in the past, when push has come to shove, Neutrality has sided with Shadow (they just want to do what they want to do like us). I specifically remember two instances, one in which Bloodoch\Ashtan teamed up and Duiran\Spinesreach did and Enorian was left in a spot where we literally couldn't get to Ashtan without having to cross Duiran's lines (who wouldn't let us use them because of a third, Spinesreach\Bloodloch alliance) and so it was 'risk war with everyone or just wait to lose'. We eventually risked war with everyone, and everyone attacked.

Another was when Enorian and Ashtan were allied, Loch declared war on Enorian and the northern alliance treaty existed, which Reach used to keep Ashtan -and- Duiran out of the war despite -them- joining on behalf of Bloodloch. We were still using Duiran supply lines, though, and when that was found out Duiran broke their alliance with us, Ashtan didn't really have anyone, and we got stomped again. Good politicking? Perhaps. But every time in the past neutrality has worked in such a way that Enorian always answered the call for Duiran but Duiran never repaid the favor (until tethering went in).

Rashar

I can attest to the fact that it -is- possible to play a 'good' character that isn't, to put it mildly, anything close to a zealot, even in Enorian. It's risky, because you have to watch your ass or people will start making stabs at you, and it can be a pain to have to defend yourself to your own citymates. But if you're prepared to argue your point and justify your actions, it can be done. It would be much harder as a newb without a leg to stand on, though.

Alice

Can I ask why Fire/Light has to be Enorian's main or only clutch, when really the Vampirism completely spits in the face of Dhar the most? My train of thought regarding that is, why not give Dhar's followers a way to play with the Divine's toys like luminaries etc have. Something akin to Houses (though exactly what that something is I don't really know, sorry.) that will let them have utilities both useful in RP and PvP alike? Just a very vague thought, but tis will also open some doors for 'darker' stuff without stepping out of the Beacon's influence or offending Duiran, though.

Daskalos

The Light has never really been defined specifically as anything more than a broad ideal, until recently, when Dhar proclaimed 'the Light' is the name of his crusade against Undeath. But as for fire? We use it, but I've never seen us worshipping a candle. Death, Truth, Faith all are big parts of Enorian.

Alice

That's fine and dandy.. I'll be more specific since it was missed: Why can there not be development of an organization that is more closely related to Dhar specifically that uses His abilities/closeness to Death to fight Undeath (I'm leaning towards Vampire Hunter D-style in idea). This will focus Enorian's goals better than the simplistic "I don't burn in the sun and you do so die".

Areka

We have very strong reasons for the conflict with Undeath. The problem in part is that OOCly, our stance/purpose is rather pointless is there really IS nothing we can ever do against Undeath, until Admin decide that Undeath can go. We can't force curing, and killing them isn't an option ("Oh no you stabbed me, now I can't play this character" isn't going to happen).

I'd love some suggestions though.

Daskalos

I don't mean this to come off as rude, but have you ever played in Enorian? We protect our villages, which is about the limits of 'kill someone for opposing us' and that lead to much forum drama claiming people were being 'bullied' from hunting grounds. Enorian has been shifting our focus to be that of worship on the divine. Two of the guilds focus on the Age of Dawn, the Ascendril do their thing over there and the Templar focus on honor and protection of the innocent. We've built the Temple District and there's more in plan, but I don't think I've ever heard the 'I don't burn in the sun and you do so die' dogma.

Is there more we can do? Yes. But I like the path we're on with the Festival of the Gods and the city, as a whole, has a rather nice vibe to it. Almost all of the vitriolic elements have either been expunged or shut up. The thing is, we can't ever lean too far one way or the other or internal strife will explode. I've had Daru telling me that Enorian is losing it's edge, we're not zealous enough. I've had Templars and Ascendril saying we're too zealous. Until something unites everyone for one purpose, it's a balancing act that quite frankly takes a lot of time and energy to maintain.

And, while I understand the Age of Dawn and everything, realistically, it's like the Biblical Rapture. The Revelation is a prophecy none of us will probably ever see, so it takes some serious faith to push it, so to speak, and while I'm not sure, I'd wager the bulk of our players could give two you know whats about mainstream religion, and so there's some natural kickback against it. When I first started playing, it was explained OOC to me that Enorian was 'supposed to be a cross between the Catholic Crusades and a Jihad against Undeath' but you can't play that way. It leads to strife, to damn near civil war, and to a weakening of an organization that already is outmanned almost 2 to 1 against our biggest competition.

Alice

Maybe BL's graveyard should be forced out of the Cavern? I mean just as a baseline, can draw chars out of their comfort zones with it just for a start. They'd have to protect themselves there or protect the graveyard or let it be taken by Enorians and used for something else like cleansings so Vamps can't use them for any given amount of time. (I'll leave it to the pros to decide a balance for such a vague idea.)

Daskalos

The problem is you're advocating an armed conflict, essentially, with a group that can easily put double our numbers in the field. That's like poking the bear while naked with a ball and chain around your ankle. I mean, for a while there, we were using firebomb to even the odds but can't have that :P

Alice

Yeah. Just trying to force some Vampirism into relevancy. I can't get RP as an undead personally, and most of my 'pretend-not-to-be-undead-masquerade/skills' are useless because Honors Alice exist (Good RP there....). Might as well try and exploit all the stuff that makes BL 'unique' and 'speshul' or give the same kind of abilities to Enorian/Duiran.. I'll pull out though, GL dudes

Daskalos

I don't think we're advocating that at all... I don't think anyone has said 'get rid of houses and unique vampires'. I think what most people have said is 'create a hook for everyone'. I don't think it's a coincidence that the largest organization is also the one that is openly touted and promoted.

Rashar

.. To repeat what Daskalos said, I don't mean to be rude.

But Vampires are kind of a big deal. They have all kinds of awesome flavor for RP and PK, and they're a -huge- draw to people, especially new players. If anything, the discussion was talking about how to draw people -away- from them.

Alice

Right, that was the point of the additional organization -for- Enorian, I was trying to put Undead on offense and find a way to dig at the vampires to give them _more_ negative sides, more than make them promoted.... nvm, its your game after all

Stathan

Putting the graveyard outside of Loch would mean that you couldn't actively use it for squat because it would likely be a stopping point for Leylines to go dig up all the coffins.

Seir

Your organization does not define your character, provided that you don't directly go against the core philosophy of what your organization stands for. Your character should sympathize with the ideals with the org or maybe they don't. Maybe it's something of convenience.

I mean, Seir was a Defender and stuck out like a sore thumb in Spinesreach at the time but still did his own thing. He was a savage in a city and made it work. Now, he's a grizzled, sarcastic jackwagon that doesn't really live up to the "lofty" bearing of the Sentinels. His oath is there, but he's not too severe about it like he used to be. Granted, he's not opposed to dirtying his hands if he has to or going on a sociopathic murder spree if he has a lapse in his mental state of affairs.

Point is, your organization should really never define your character. I mean, if you want a good literary example, think of the Night's Watch in ASoIaF. Those lofty words in their oath, the ideals, the history, what they stand for. If they were in Aetolia, you'd probably expect each of them to resemble a grizzled Paladin. What are they in actuality? Most of them are thieves, rapists, murderers with their own gripes, poisons, and histories with a few dishonoured nobles or nobles who fought on the wrong side of a war amongst the leadership. It's a motley crew.

Aarbrok

God Dammit @Seir‌ I see that picture and all I think is "Here comes the aaaaairplane"

And yeah, Orgs shouldn't define your character, you should be an individual amongst that organization who perhaps embodies its spirit, but not necessarily always the avatar of it, unless for certain folks who you would directly correlate as such a thing IE. Ezalor-Strong Vampire who don't need no man, etcetera. There are a list of others, but I have not directly roleplayed with them enough to make the assumption they are what I think they are, consider someone like Valingar who I see as a PKer, but have never personally in depth RP'd with though I imagine he has some flavor behind his character, he seems to have a strong dynamic in Enorian.

Rambling, im tired. Sorry if this makes no sense.

Moirean

Tangential, but Carnifex are actually pretty similar to the Night's Watch in my head. We're all about not caring where people came from (you're an Emperor? That's nice, you're still a recruit here) and the overall goals we aim for are to protect Sapience from the real big threats - we have a watch tower overlooking the ruins of Ashtan as a constant reminder of the Big Bad things that are out there, and Severn has some minotaurs stationed there still from the fallout of the whole Shadowplague thing. Individual members might be evil and whatev, but the org as a whole is not really as invested in day-to-day city-vs-city stuff as we are in getting strong - and in making everyone else, by culling out the weak, because they're just gonna get in the way when the real threats get here.

Mostly, I was not really interested in doing a 1-dimensional hur hur evil role and that's not really how Moi is, she always thinks she's doing things for a GOOD reason, and I took the org along for the ride. They were all too newbish or afk ranting about class revamps to object. ^_^

Uhh, more on topic, neutrality is really hard to do in Aet. An org that is neutral will side with both darkies and lifers, and, while darkie RP can kinda be ok with the org helping out lifers for a spin, the minute the neutral org takes sides with darkies, lifer RP really can't be ok with that, as that means the "neutral" org has supported Undeath. The Undeath/Living outlook is too constricting to allow them to really be ok with that, and that's not a knock at lifers or anything, that's just the hand they have been dealt. It's one reason I really really really dislike how the game has shifted into that focus for the main conflict - it's absolutely intractable and that makes for a very stagnant and dull conflict scene. Lifers really can't change without abandoning their entire current concept, so these sides are ALWAYS going to be the same.

I remember when I was first playing the conflict seemed much more about shades of good/evil, territory and politics. Necromancers and forestals clashed over nature. Forestals and cities clashed over civilization. Syssin reviled Undead. Werewolves and Vampires hated each other. Vampires roamed around and were evil and Undead were a thing, sure, but there were lots of other things as well that drove stuff. Nowadays, with the tethers, we're pretty much all slotted into roles and multiclassing has mingled all of the orgs on each side. I can't say "Yo, Spinesreach is anti-Undeath" because like 1/3 of my citizens are multiclassed as vampires, and that's not touching on how that would leave us hung out to dry in PK conflicts.

Carnifex debated going anti-vampire for a bit, when we first clashed with the houses over our refusal to recognize blood rank in unknighted members. Every member voted to do it, but I decided not to go that far because oh, man, the drama. I kinda wonder what would happen if we declared the guild anti-vamp or, even crazier, anti-Undead. Like, would the admin step in and stop that? We're Bloodlochian, technically, so obviously we CAN'T be anti-Undead, but...what if we decided we wanted to be?

/joins Aarbrok in random ramblings...

Lim

Erzsebet said:

A lot of vamps play that divide somewhat, and many of us used to. I know when Kiralla took over Voltaire initially, they didn't allow only-undead in unless they were aspiring to become vampires. For a long time that was the norm, and when I did start letting them in they were treated as servants. Somewhere along the road they basically stopped treating them that way because there are few people that really want to play the underclass in a sense that they can't move past it--treating newblets like servants is fine 'cause they do some tasks and RP some and they can go on to treating new newblets like servants. Undead's only method to 'moving past' that treatment was to go vamp, which was much more difficult/cost-inducing than it is now, given they didn't have multi-class, even if it did otherwise fit with their RP. So they left. And in order influence the population stability and keep what undead we had remaining, we changed the way they were treated. Which was not the norm for a while, but eventually the other houses mostly followed suit. Bloodloch...I think shifted to an equalish stance there during Desian's reign, 'cause all of our major combatants mostly except like, Kadvar, were undead but not vamp. They were the dominant visible faction, though the inverse is pretty much true now.

Such a pity. I am actually pretty drawn to the idea of mortals serving alongside Vampires. It really doesn't have to always be an abusive, BDSM master/servant relationship where the mortal is constantly talked down to, etc. I see such relationships as eventually maturing to one where the master is just as dependent on the servant as much as the servant is on the master. Think Alfred and Bruce Wayne - Alfred is technically his servant/butler, but he certainly isn't treated as such.