Spirit/Shadow PK divide

Auresae

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Daskalos

People spend weeks setting up the Festival of the Gods, an event for Lifers, and what happens? Loch decides to raid Duiran, causing a lot of us to have to defend.

At some point, have some respect for your fellow gamers. "Oh, this is about us having fun too". You know, people always says 'Enorian doesn't do XYZ' but when we try to do it, this is the reaction we get. Some people worked for quite some time setting all of this up. 'Oh, but we raided Duiran, not Eno'. You're right, you did. But just like you guys have bailed Spinesreach out, we're going to help Duiran.

I am ashamed of this playerbase right now. I thought you were better than this.

Draiman

I don't know what is going on today, and I know there was something going on yesterday or the day before (I can't remember exactly) that was a big event for you guys and Bloodloch called off a planned raid BECAUSE of the event. So if event crap was still happening I'm not 100% sure BL would of went through with it had they known. I wasn't part of any of it tho so I can't honestly say.

Moirean

In Bloodloch's defence, they were planning to raid last night, but Duiran was having a huge event, so they postponed. I didn't realize there was a festival tonight, either. Maybe they didn't know? I think there might have been a public post about it (?), but it was addressed to Duiran, so I assumed it was a mispost and didn't read it.

Daskalos

The Festival of the Gods is in Enorian, and Duiran is getting raided. It's annoying, because we had a big turnout and people were having fun and people were looking forward to it. It's the first time we've tried to do something this big in a while, and then... Bloodloch raids Duiran and most of the group ends up having to fight.

It's akin to raiding during the Eireachagdg thing Duiran does, or the Spirean ball in Spinesreach. Or raiding when Abohorash is speaking in Loch to the people there. I feel bad because I know people worked hard on this and I hate to see their hard work just... ignored by a bunch of people who have no respect for others. Yes, you're playing the role of the bad guy, I get it.

Ezalor

lol from the guy who raided unapologetically all through Abhorash's first event and then kept justifying it.

We already held off from raiding last night because they had a Dendara event. For one, not one person knew about your festival and we made sure there was no Duiran event going on before going. For another, it's an ENORIAN event and you're complaining about DUIRAN being raided?

And in case you missed it, this is an admin-spawned admin-sanctioned event between BLOODLOCH and DUIRAN that we are participating in. You decided to poke your nose in by yourself so I really don't understand what your point is.

Angwe

In BL's defense, I think it was an honest mistake. They didn't know.

Also:

Setne said:

Aarbrok said:

@Haven‌ I definitely love your Roleplay, it seems the way Enorian -should- be played based on the way they talk, but not how they act. You play the Light as an ultimate solution, and a way to cleanse.

The way Enorian comes off is that its convenient and easy to spout off about when its appropriate in conversation or when they want to make a point. Haven seems to always make a point, not just when he needs to stroke his ego, because its always there.

50 points for the Black Sun.

?

Seir

As much as I'd enjoy Haven's viewpoint and some small measure of internal difference and conflict between Duiran and Enorian, the fighters and leadership between the two organizations won't allow it because of how critical it is for the two of them to actually stand a chance at matching Bloodloch's population in combat scenarios or dealing with Bloodreach. Would know as I'd root out any dissent between Duiran and Enorian during my long tenure in the past as Benandanti of Bark.

Spirit side won't weaken and divide itself combat-wise purely for the sake of roleplay when it can't afford to.

Lim

Seir said:

As much as I'd enjoy Haven's viewpoint and some small measure of internal difference and conflict between Duiran and Enorian, the fighters and leadership between the two organizations won't allow it because of how critical it is for the two of them to actually stand a chance at matching Bloodloch's population in combat scenarios or dealing with Bloodreach. Would know as I'd root out any dissent between Duiran and Enorian during my long tenure in the past as Benandanti of Bark.

Spirit side won't weaken and divide itself combat-wise purely for the sake of roleplay when it can't afford to.

Which is why I don't think we can discount Dask's stance. 'Boring' as it may be, it is also quite realistically played out. He's a city leader. He has to consider the politics of remaining allies with Duiran. He has the burden of pragmatism, which Haven has the privilege of ignoring.

We actually see it in real life too. The Executive has to consider the big picture, while interest groups can push their own agenda at the expense of all else. As a result, there is often conflict between the two. I like how we see a similar dynamic that we see here between Haven and Dask.

This, I think, makes the conflict interesting, compelling and well-played. So kudos to BOTH (even if Haven is playing the cooler/more fun/more charismatic role )

Haven

Seir said:

As much as I'd enjoy Haven's viewpoint and some small measure of internal difference and conflict between Duiran and Enorian, the fighters and leadership between the two organizations won't allow it because of how critical it is for the two of them to actually stand a chance at matching Bloodloch's population in combat scenarios or dealing with Bloodreach. Would know as I'd root out any dissent between Duiran and Enorian during my long tenure in the past as Benandanti of Bark. Spirit side won't weaken and divide itself combat-wise purely for the sake of roleplay when it can't afford to.

What do you mean by this exactly? Cause it sounds... I dunno. Odd. In a game where it is essentially impossible for either side to "win" or even where there's no real time-constraint as far as "x will happen if we don't act", -especially- with the permanent removal of the war system, I'm not sure I understand truly why so many of you are so reluctant to ever even try to pursue a different arc other than stick together no matter what. I mean from time to time and frequent enough, we hear complaints of how the players are so tired of the Undead vs Living arc that you'd think we'd jump at the opportunities that present themselves whenever two similar organizations find an issue to disagree over. But meh. It's your right to always roleplay that way if you really want to. *shrug* I just don't really understand it.

Lim

@Haven‌ : Because it depends on what players want to get out of the game.

Do we want to play a game where it's just pick a side, fight and win, like in WoW/LoL/most mmorpgs? Or, are we more interested in story telling, roleplay, participating in a compelling story that's collectively told. A big distinction between these two aims is the willingness to play the losing side.

Most people don't like losing because they're in it to win, not to tell a story. At least on the macro level.

Haven

Lim said:

@Haven‌ : Because it depends on what players want to get out of the game.

Do we want to play a game where it's just pick a side, fight and win, like in WoW/LoL/most mmorpgs? Or, are we more interested in story telling, roleplay, participating in a compelling story that's collectively told. A big distinction between these two aims is the willingness to play the losing side.

Most people don't like losing because they're in it to win, not to tell a story. At least on the macro level.

Ah..hrmm. That makes sense. I guess I'm here for the story.

Daskalos

Lim said:

Seir said:

As much as I'd enjoy Haven's viewpoint and some small measure of internal difference and conflict between Duiran and Enorian, the fighters and leadership between the two organizations won't allow it because of how critical it is for the two of them to actually stand a chance at matching Bloodloch's population in combat scenarios or dealing with Bloodreach. Would know as I'd root out any dissent between Duiran and Enorian during my long tenure in the past as Benandanti of Bark.

Spirit side won't weaken and divide itself combat-wise purely for the sake of roleplay when it can't afford to.

Which is why I don't think we can discount Dask's stance. 'Boring' as it may be, it is also quite realistically played out. He's a city leader. He has to consider the politics of remaining allies with Duiran. He has the burden of pragmatism, which Haven has the privilege of ignoring.

We actually see it in real life too. The Executive has to consider the big picture, while interest groups can push their own agenda at the expense of all else. As a result, there is often conflict between the two. I like how we see a similar dynamic that we see here between Haven and Dask.

This, I think, makes the conflict interesting, compelling and well-played. So kudos to BOTH (even if Haven is playing the cooler/more fun/more charismatic role )

The funny thing is Haven is playing Haven much as I played Dask before Daskalos became leadership. Dask just views Haven as an immature version of himself and has tried to make Haven 'see the Light' so to speak but at this point views him as someone who can't grasp the big picture and is too deluded to change. The Haven\Dask dynamic has gone on for quite some time (and ironically, it started over a girl. Lol)

Ingram

Ok, I screwed up quoting @Haven‌ somehow, but his point about no time limit and the banality of what we currently got going on which is permanently Duiran+Enorian vs Spinesreach+Bloodloch is how I feel. The limitless potential for conflict, change, and variety shoved off for the same thing day in and day out is kind of meh because people don't want to lose group fights.

Seir

Not saying I agree with it, but people don't like their characters losing. No one wants to be on the constantly losing side either. Believe me, it's hard to break a game of the Team Red vs Team Blue mentality. Pretty much all of IRE suffers from it.

Though I will say that I've noticed something really different between Aetolia and one entirely RP-based MUD.

In Aetolia, players are capable of investing into their characters with real world currency. Death is not permanent and it takes a lot of time to reach endgame, political success, and more. The combat is more in-depth, skill based, and involved.

The RP-based MUD Armageddon (which I'm naming just for the sake of my observation) is a perma-death based MUD. Political success is outright determined at character creation since "more powerful" characters require karma from the karma system (players who have demonstrated knowledge and roleplay ability/responsibility get the powerful characters), but there is no monetary investment. Combat is telegraphed, no real skill involved.

What I've noticed is that both games have instances of where players cross the IC/OOC barrier, mostly due to concern for their character. I think the time investment is the primary motivator for this behavior, but players in Armageddon or in most RP-dominant MUD's, are not afraid to let their characters fail or die. They are detached from them in that regard and it allows for more dynamic roleplay. They still CARE about their characters and that can lead to metagaming, but it's purely from a time investment point of view.

A majority of Aetolians, especially the combatants, do not like to see their characters fail at all. There are some exceptions with roleplayers and roleplayer/combatants. I'm not sure if this is primarily due to ego, the monetary investment, or otherwise, but it definitely exists because that's how the Red vs Blue mentality starts to begin with.

Edit: I will say that I, as a player, did not initially mind Seir losing fights. I looked at them as roleplay opportunities. What changed that awhile back was when players on the other side started viewing it competitively and certain players began insulting me OOCly and crossing that threshold. It became an ego thing at that point. I also think that's why people don't fight 1 v 1 very much either. If there's even a chance that they might lose, they'll run or have a group to come and help kill the person because it's a guaranteed win and satisfies the ego. My views on group combat and how non-tactical/non-skill based it is are pretty much known already so I won't re-open that can of worms.

Irruel

I got blasted by my ordermates a few years back for suggesting 'surrender' in a holywar with Galleus. This was before there was a coded system for holywars - basically, you just dusted shrines until one side gave up.

Everyonecwas bitching about dying and it being hopeless, but as soon as I suggested we just admit we lost, I wasnt evena real hunter anymore.

That's the mentality.

Me, I just enjoy the ride. Aetolia is a book for me. Maybe that is why I consider PK to be valid rp.

Kiyotan

Irruel said:

Aetolia is a book for me.

50 Shades of Aetolia

Haven

Daskalos said:

Lim said:

Seir said:

As much as I'd enjoy Haven's viewpoint and some small measure of internal difference and conflict between Duiran and Enorian, the fighters and leadership between the two organizations won't allow it because of how critical it is for the two of them to actually stand a chance at matching Bloodloch's population in combat scenarios or dealing with Bloodreach. Would know as I'd root out any dissent between Duiran and Enorian during my long tenure in the past as Benandanti of Bark.

Spirit side won't weaken and divide itself combat-wise purely for the sake of roleplay when it can't afford to.

Which is why I don't think we can discount Dask's stance. 'Boring' as it may be, it is also quite realistically played out. He's a city leader. He has to consider the politics of remaining allies with Duiran. He has the burden of pragmatism, which Haven has the privilege of ignoring.

We actually see it in real life too. The Executive has to consider the big picture, while interest groups can push their own agenda at the expense of all else. As a result, there is often conflict between the two. I like how we see a similar dynamic that we see here between Haven and Dask.

This, I think, makes the conflict interesting, compelling and well-played. So kudos to BOTH (even if Haven is playing the cooler/more fun/more charismatic role )

The funny thing is Haven is playing Haven much as I played Dask before Daskalos became leadership. Dask just views Haven as an immature version of himself and has tried to make Haven 'see the Light' so to speak but at this point views him as someone who can't grasp the big picture and is too deluded to change. The Haven\Dask dynamic has gone on for quite some time (and ironically, it started over a girl. Lol)

Bahahaha! What doesn't get started over a girl?

Rashar

I think it's more "We will literally get our shit stomped in every single time if we don't stick together, because that is how skewed things are." Losing a fight is cool, or even a bunch. As players on the light side, especially players who participate in most of the fighting, it is hard to not wince when stuff happens to jeopardize that alliance.

It sucks, because it does limit what people are going to do. I'm all for some conflict even with the good guys. It's not going to happen at this point because while losing sucks, losing every single time sucks even worse.

Haven don't care, because all he dies is 1v1 anyway.

Seir

You won't see Duiran and Enorian split while Bloodloch has the population that it has. The players and their characters will generally do whatever it takes to maintain the alliance. I'll just keep it at that.

Angwe

What CAN happen, however, is that smaller splinter groups can form and split off!

Rashar

The problem is you have issues like I was dealing with yesterday. Sure, Rashar is an ally to Duiran, or more particularly some of the people that live there. But he is currently enemied, so they get raided and I have to sit and watch. I tried helping while they were fighting thst big critter the other day by in phasing to pick up corpses and revive, but the guards ate me.

Pain in the ass, and where I as a player was like man I should do something about this, Rashar looked at is as "Well, fuck you guys then."

Moirean

Rashar said:

I think it's more "We will literally get our shit stomped in every single time if we don't stick together, because that is how skewed things are." Losing a fight is cool, or even a bunch. As players on the light side, especially players who participate in most of the fighting, it is hard to not wince when stuff happens to jeopardize that alliance.

It sucks, because it does limit what people are going to do. I'm all for some conflict even with the good guys. It's not going to happen at this point because while losing sucks, losing every single time sucks even worse.

When I first came back, BL and Spines were NOT allied. Lin and Elanth had created the separation you guys repeatedly say you want - and all that meant is that it was a constantly 1v2 at every fight, because Eno and Duiran stayed thick as thieves.

So, I promptly unifed us again.

People talk about how darkies should split up, BL and Spines should scuffle for a bit, the cities should stand alone, etc, but there's no way I'm going to cripple my city like that just because it might be "fun" - the lifers have already shown that they aren't going to respect a conflict between Spines/Bl and show restraint back.

Jensen

Moirean said:

Rashar said:

I think it's more "We will literally get our shit stomped in every single time if we don't stick together, because that is how skewed things are." Losing a fight is cool, or even a bunch. As players on the light side, especially players who participate in most of the fighting, it is hard to not wince when stuff happens to jeopardize that alliance.

It sucks, because it does limit what people are going to do. I'm all for some conflict even with the good guys. It's not going to happen at this point because while losing sucks, losing every single time sucks even worse.

When I first came back, BL and Spines were NOT allied. Lin and Elanth had created the separation you guys repeatedly say you want - and all that meant is that it was a constantly 1v2 at every fight, because Eno and Duiran stayed thick as thieves.

So, I promptly unifed us again.

People talk about how darkies should split up, BL and Spines should scuffle for a bit, the cities should stand alone, etc, but there's no way I'm going to cripple my city like that just because it might be "fun" - the lifers have already shown that they aren't going to respect a conflict between Spines/Bl and show restraint back.

Eno and Duiran can only handle Bloodloch when either A) ALL of the lifers turn up and coordinate, or Loch is missing fighters or is uncoordinated. Spines has little to do with it. It might be different outside of leylines, but that remains to be seen

Aarbrok

With all due respect @Moirean‌, from what I have gathered and essentially put together by @Daskalos‌, @Haven‌ and others who have said anything, it is truly the dynamic and size of Bloodloch alone even that is generally a threat.

Im going to avoid using general trolling like I would typically do and just be honest here (Surprise)
Bloodloch in general has a larger scale of seasoned PKers, which are generally a threat to any other City/State whom would stand alone against them, Spinesreach included. That being said Spinesreach has the liberty of combat alliance with them due to hard coded tethering, treaties, etcetera. So we get lumped into that mix of "Shadow" even though alot of Spireans really dont like vampires (It's true)

We are generally in the same boat as Eno and Duiran are, just by a different spectrum, and to change that would have to be an administrative thing that would offset the sheer number Roleplay wise that Bloodloch holds, dispersing the combatants to even out general odds. Though I would imagine the largest powerhouse of PK would generally be @Iosyne‌ 's order, if we really wanted to be general.

Mind you this is not absolute fact, im just generalizing and speculating so feel free to agree or disagree.

Toz

It is just kind of funny how it goes. When I first started, everyone said BL/Spines would never split and so Eno/Duiran couldn't either. There was much rage/grumping over this. And now it is 'web can't because BL has too many' - but the size of BL stayed the same, more or less. So maybe lifers of a few years ago overestimated themselves?

Moirean

Maybe if you are looking at just sheer population numbers. I participate in quite a few lessers - especially during off-peak, it tends to be me leading, Spirean newbs and BL mid-bies. Sometimes there's someone else like Ilyon to step in, but very often I end up leading, so sorry but I disagree. Most of the time, we may offer only zerg forces or just my leadership, but I can think up quite a few fights where if that "paltry" Spirean contribution hadn't been there, we'd have lost.

Ezalor

Actually during the time that Moirean mentioned, when Spines and BL were split, Duiran was way stronger than Bloodloch. They could have easily taken Bloodloch 1v1 and every lesser was a 2v1v1, so yeah, that's not a real reason either.

Not saying people are wrong for wanting to stick together but all the complaining about how people have to stay allied and justifications for EnoDuiran and all that are just excuses. During a time when Duiran was the superpower AND Bloodloch-Spinesreach were split, EnoDuiran was still a thing.

Jensen

EnoDuiran was really shaky around then, a lot of forrestals didnt get along with Eno, Haven didnt help. Dask even left Eno for Duiran.

Also at that all of our fighters were awake, we had a lot of up and coming ones, plus a decent influx of recently converted fighters like Tyrak, Azton, and Exayne.

At this same time a large portion of big names from Bloodloch were MIA from the last war and for a long time after.

Daskalos

Everyone forgets that during the time that Duiran was really strong was the same time a lot of Loch had ragequit over something (war system being disabled, maybe?) and all went to play Lusternia for a while.

Aarbrok

Edit: I just realized that was a really backhanded comment (Sorry)