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Re: The Reality of it all...
Really hate this Bamathis stuff. To the point is actually stresses me out. The only reason I haven't kicked up a much larger stink is because I'm tired of us being forced by the course of events to tear our own orgs apart because we're never EVER presented with clear cut decisions while darkside path is always 100% obvious. Just tired.You're joking. You and @Xavin both.
Remember the Liruma War, when Spirit side had a clear side to back and Shadow players spent several RL days deliberating over whether or not to back the imps or ophidians, and Spirit had a massive head start in claiming territory because of it?
Remember the Three Widow War, when many Bloodloch characters wanted to support the slavers, and Spinesreach spent a long time with an intense moral debate over why they should support the villagers instead? You weren't privy to any of this, but it was a big source of contention. This, once again, gave the Spirit players a head start.
Remember after the War of Night when Abhorash absorbed Ati and became infused with the Shadowbound Taint? The Syssin looked into it, the lore was backed up by Severn, and we took action against the Dominion. It upset a lot of players, and it sparked all kinds of IC and OOC turmoil between orgs that were normally very close. It took years for us to recover, but now we've got the best relationship between orgs that I've seen in my five years playing.
Don't lecture me about how easy Shadow has it or how we never have to make hard decisions. Don't whine at me about how the direction of the lore is tearing your communities apart. Deal with it like we did.
EDIT: I'm not going to touch on being "handed" wins in events. What I'm getting at is that Shadow side has definitely had its own moral hurdles and debates to overcome, and yet we still manage to do well. If you want to win the culture wars IC, take action. Omei just opened up membership to Spinesreach and Bloodloch, but I don't see any outcry over it.
Fezzix
9
Re: Recent Concerns Regarding Bamathis
While some of the problematic aspects have been mentioned, there's still a few more that haven't.
The whole 'For Sapience' thing has a very ultranationalist propaganda vibe. Okay, on it's own, not a problem.
Then there's the aspect where going after non-Sapience pantheon worship that's considered to be threats happens to potentially paint targets on settlements and races that are somewhat analogues of real life non-White cultures. The Atav in Skythrone? Look at their food, and it's very mesoAmerican. Saluria? South American, Mayan, Incan, Aztec vibes. The Mitrine? Ethiopian. Indyuk? Inuit/Eskimo. And of course, the Mhun, which have parallels to Jews. Again, by itself, probably not a problem even with the ethnic cleansing vibe.
Then there's the genocide aspect. For people who worship Albedi gods, it's convert or die, and players who don't want in on killing people are forced into conversion, which itself is...an avenue RIFE with unfortunate implications because it's still a form of genocide via erasure of religion. Players are not given another option. Feels very Crusades or Spanish Inquisitio, but again, on it's own, not too problematic.
Now roll all of that together. Consider the themes, consider where it feels like things are going. A lot of us can't see the full picture or know the full story of what's going on, but what we DO see looks...really, really bad. And knowing people can't see the full picture or don't know the full scope of what's going on, that outward image is kind of important, and while those individual parts I mentioned, and what was highlighted in the main post, are not problematic on their own or even with a couple of them. But it's the entire damn package.
Yes, this is a fantasy game. Yes, it's a fantasy game with dark themes. Yes, we're all just players playing characters just RPing a role. But it doesn't take much to see where things could go, and the whole point of pointing these problematic things out is to ensure that they're treated with some measure of sensitivity and maturity. And there has to be some mindfulness in how much is allowed 'because it's RP'.
EDIT: I find it somewhat telling that I request some sensitivity and maturity be considered in viewing the package as a whole, and there's a bunch of dislikes already.
The whole 'For Sapience' thing has a very ultranationalist propaganda vibe. Okay, on it's own, not a problem.
Then there's the aspect where going after non-Sapience pantheon worship that's considered to be threats happens to potentially paint targets on settlements and races that are somewhat analogues of real life non-White cultures. The Atav in Skythrone? Look at their food, and it's very mesoAmerican. Saluria? South American, Mayan, Incan, Aztec vibes. The Mitrine? Ethiopian. Indyuk? Inuit/Eskimo. And of course, the Mhun, which have parallels to Jews. Again, by itself, probably not a problem even with the ethnic cleansing vibe.
Then there's the genocide aspect. For people who worship Albedi gods, it's convert or die, and players who don't want in on killing people are forced into conversion, which itself is...an avenue RIFE with unfortunate implications because it's still a form of genocide via erasure of religion. Players are not given another option. Feels very Crusades or Spanish Inquisitio, but again, on it's own, not too problematic.
Now roll all of that together. Consider the themes, consider where it feels like things are going. A lot of us can't see the full picture or know the full story of what's going on, but what we DO see looks...really, really bad. And knowing people can't see the full picture or don't know the full scope of what's going on, that outward image is kind of important, and while those individual parts I mentioned, and what was highlighted in the main post, are not problematic on their own or even with a couple of them. But it's the entire damn package.
Yes, this is a fantasy game. Yes, it's a fantasy game with dark themes. Yes, we're all just players playing characters just RPing a role. But it doesn't take much to see where things could go, and the whole point of pointing these problematic things out is to ensure that they're treated with some measure of sensitivity and maturity. And there has to be some mindfulness in how much is allowed 'because it's RP'.
EDIT: I find it somewhat telling that I request some sensitivity and maturity be considered in viewing the package as a whole, and there's a bunch of dislikes already.
Re: The Reality of it all...
Really hate this Bamathis stuff. To the point is actually stresses me out. The only reason I haven't kicked up a much larger stink is because I'm tired of us being forced by the course of events to tear our own orgs apart because we're never EVER presented with clear cut decisions while darkside path is always 100% obvious. Just tired.
Aishia
12
Re: The Reality of it all...
A large part of the Duiran support of Bamathis frustration is that there's been opposition to it for months, and repeated asking of various Spirit for some kind of support, which has been super inconsistent and waffling. Even more frustrating? About two years ago when I, Maizin, and Eowyn were Speakers, there was a leadership town hall of sorts with Tiur and the Celani overseeing stuff going on in Duiran, and we were discussing Duiran's role and its intended stance. Want to know what we were told? 'Yeah, Shadow is bad, and you guys should be firmly against it because it corrupts Dendara, and the gods on Duiran's council are pretty hard line against it.' This was reinforced with a bunch of RP from Dhar at the time, and a lot of haranguing from Rhydderch, the resident lore dump NPC at the Core. Fast forward to two years later, and suddenly supporting Shadow gods in such a heavy capacity is totally fine, and all that town hall discussion has been completely overturned.
On the player level... Sorry, Iesid, but it's not as clean a sweep as you believe. There's been more than a few complaints about your handling of things and your treatment of other players, particularly ones that haven't agreed with you. It's been brought up repeatedly that you're unapproachable and dismissive, and it's made people afraid of voicing objections because the result often tends to be to make things so unpleasant until they're made to want to leave. No one speaks up because many players have been conditioned to believe nothing will be done because nothing HAS been done.
You know how people people used to criticize the dur Nayas for being distant and unapproachable? That's kind of how Mulariads are regarded now. Distant, unapproachable, and if you voice dissent, your days are severely numbered. This has been the case multiple times as the experience of various players can attest.
People are frustrated and fed up because we feel our hands our tied, and feel like no one is listening when we ask. And when we do ask, how disheartening is it where you're just given a shrug and told to put up with it? How many people have stopped playing or just gone on to play Shadow side? How many are close to quitting playing now because they feel like they're unable to make a stand? Because honestly, the current environment feels like you're not given the time of day unless you're firmly on the Bama Bandwagon. Appearances matter a lot in a game like this, especially when we can't see the full story or full scope.
On the player level... Sorry, Iesid, but it's not as clean a sweep as you believe. There's been more than a few complaints about your handling of things and your treatment of other players, particularly ones that haven't agreed with you. It's been brought up repeatedly that you're unapproachable and dismissive, and it's made people afraid of voicing objections because the result often tends to be to make things so unpleasant until they're made to want to leave. No one speaks up because many players have been conditioned to believe nothing will be done because nothing HAS been done.
You know how people people used to criticize the dur Nayas for being distant and unapproachable? That's kind of how Mulariads are regarded now. Distant, unapproachable, and if you voice dissent, your days are severely numbered. This has been the case multiple times as the experience of various players can attest.
People are frustrated and fed up because we feel our hands our tied, and feel like no one is listening when we ask. And when we do ask, how disheartening is it where you're just given a shrug and told to put up with it? How many people have stopped playing or just gone on to play Shadow side? How many are close to quitting playing now because they feel like they're unable to make a stand? Because honestly, the current environment feels like you're not given the time of day unless you're firmly on the Bama Bandwagon. Appearances matter a lot in a game like this, especially when we can't see the full story or full scope.
Re: The Reality of it all...
I'd rather not have this be flipped on the dur Naya players. What they choose to do in their RP circle is their business. While I've had my criticisms of the dur Naya in the past when they were largely inaccessible and primarily amongst themselves while in leadership, that evaporated when they stepped down. Hell, even Pilar admitted that it was a legitimate criticism and that they should've done more outward facing stuff. That being said, metagaming isn't cool nor does any of what they do amongst themselves justify it. They're good roleplayers and I'm happy when I get a chance to roleplay with them.
The recent criticism of dur Naya has stemmed largely from the ridiculous extremes that people in Duiran and the Sentinels have gone to defend Bamathis worship. A God that literally has the God of Artifice, which both orgs stand opposed to, as an Order representative. He is solidly aligned with Shadow -- and yet he's the only Shadow God allowed a shrine in Duiran, and people have gone to really meta lengths to protect him. The dur Naya, including myself, rightly called this out in Sentinel news posts.
Point is: Bamathis is not a neutral God. He's not even the closest thing that Shadow HAS to a neutral God. Even the one that IS closest to a neutral God has been banned from Duiran and the Sentinels. Y'all who are Duiran folks in his Order should've known that a day would eventually come where you'd have to choose.
The recent criticism of dur Naya has stemmed largely from the ridiculous extremes that people in Duiran and the Sentinels have gone to defend Bamathis worship. A God that literally has the God of Artifice, which both orgs stand opposed to, as an Order representative. He is solidly aligned with Shadow -- and yet he's the only Shadow God allowed a shrine in Duiran, and people have gone to really meta lengths to protect him. The dur Naya, including myself, rightly called this out in Sentinel news posts.
Point is: Bamathis is not a neutral God. He's not even the closest thing that Shadow HAS to a neutral God. Even the one that IS closest to a neutral God has been banned from Duiran and the Sentinels. Y'all who are Duiran folks in his Order should've known that a day would eventually come where you'd have to choose.
Seir
3
Re: The Reality of it all...
I am very much gathering a lot of information from a lot of places and trying to reply. Pages of concerns from all directions, and I need to sort out the best response. When I fire off too quickly I never get what I meant across and it's always bad.
BUT I do chime in to say that I'm not going to delete Oonagh. It's okay to disagree with me, to not like me, to not like how I do things, etc.
BUT I do chime in to say that I'm not going to delete Oonagh. It's okay to disagree with me, to not like me, to not like how I do things, etc.
Tiur
6
Re: Mildly Irritating: Aetolia's Pet Peeves
My impression is that they actually either don't understand or acknowledge the scale of the problem, which is strange since it has been clearly explained by multiple people in the last few months. All we're getting are incremental changes that barely scratch the surface.
There's many ways to fix this problem, it's just all on the Pools here to pick one and execute.
Czcienn
1
Re: Mildly Irritating: Aetolia's Pet Peeves
Yeah, the production building numbers have been off for the entire time I've dealt with them. We've all talked about this ad nauseam at this point, there really isn't much more that can be said. The decision to make drastic changes to the way commodities work, little by little, instead of having the entire system all at once was probably not the best one, in hindsight. It may have been fine if the other two Agriculture skills were released on a schedule, but since they aren't, the problem just continues to exacerbate itself over time. My suggestion on discord once was met with a bit of groaning, but I'll say it again, if you're going to have a system where the speed of the production buildings is increased by how many 'apprentices you have working there', I don't see why you couldn't have players also set themselves, in the physical buildings(they do exist as physical buildings, fyi), to work there as well, maybe with some channeled skill, or something, to help speed the queue along. Up to a certain cap, obviously.
There's many ways to fix this problem, it's just all on the Pools here to pick one and execute.
There's many ways to fix this problem, it's just all on the Pools here to pick one and execute.
Aeryx
0
Re: Announce post #3087: May Promotion
The only downside to direct salvage purchases is that once everyone who wants salvage has their maxed out items... Salvages become useless and it's just another lame promo that provides no income for IRE.
Rhyot
3