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Re: RP environment - outguilding
There are only consequences if the clique you're in think you should have consequences.I'm starting to think that we should put a moratorium on the word "clique" because I see it bandied about waaaaaaaaaay too much in these sorts of conversations. Aetolia is a large community, and sub communities within a community this large are absolutely normal. In the biz, we call it "having friends." It's a social game for crying out loud. It's very bizarre to me to see a word with a predominantly negative connotation used to describe what is, frankly, really normal behavior.
Tetchta
8
Re: RP environment - outguilding
There are only consequences if the clique you're in think you should have consequences. It's been that way for basically the entire existence of these games. People will try to put consequences on you with zero proof, and people will unsuccessfully try and put consequences on you when they have your admission to wrong doing, and fail. Basically, since this is a video game that is admittedly social, it's mostly ran by a bunch of cliques, and it doesn't have silly real life things like 'truth and justice'.
If you run afoul of the status quo for x y z reasons, be prepared to have a bad time. It is what it is.
If you run afoul of the status quo for x y z reasons, be prepared to have a bad time. It is what it is.
Aeryx
2
Re: RP environment - outguilding
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your text, but that is the kind of dismissive take I got from this, and this entire thread is about how Guild Laws and the Guild's general code of conduct can affect punishments and decision making regarding said punishments.RP environment - outguilding
To me, the entire thread is about lifting your foot off the outguild pedal so characters can have the freedom RP. It's in the thread title. I tried to tl;dr with a joke for the 'actual' subject of the thread, but that didn't find an audience.
I'm also stupid. I admit it. I'm bad with people. It's why I'm not being vague when I address the forum. I have been affected by the outguild button. I'm being blunt and honest with where my head is, because it will probably be the only way I answer my questions.
This is kind of a silly take.I might be dismissive of the importance of murder. I agree. The alternative is less tolerable and fun though, so... w/e. This probably tilts depending on vampire/undead or living. My point still is, I prefer leniency for something as trivial as a death.
Ensis
0
Re: RP environment - outguilding
You're assuming a lot @Ensis.Treason. You gave examples. I can argue the examples.
...
I cannot speak for the others but that's what I disagree with. There are many reasons and situations that call for outguilding. Treason (Selling guild secrets, stealing from the guild, killing guild members [especially leadership], actively going against guild goals and ideals, etc.) tends to be the common reason that outguildings occur. Although not as often cited and usually open to a wide berth of interpretation and thus typically more open to disputes, organizational health is another valid reason for outguilding someone. The list can go on really.
- Selling guild secrets. Unless it's regarding an event happening right now, or OrgReq/divine/future stuff, I'm not impressed. If it is, admin will probably act before the guild will. Granted, you can probably cover the most egregious violations under...
- Stealing from the guild. Internal theft is an acceptable reason. I actually should have made an exception for it. I would temper this with what's actually being stolen, but in cases where it's a guild problem you're probably clear to do it. External theft, one of your members stealing other people's stuff, will probably get handled before the guild gets to touch it. I can't tell who allows or encourages it anymore.
- Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
- Actively going against guild goals and ideals. This is dependent on the guild, and I'd rather discuss individual issues then make a blanket statement. There's few actions a player can take that so violate 'ideals' enough to actively harm the rest of the guild. What Elene is joking about is w/e to me. Pregnant vampires and undead are worse. Letting your ents get killed/harvested for... w/e, is much worse. Even if you let these deviants go from the guild, and get someone from the city to kick them too, they retain class and continue debasing precious lore for as long as they're interested in pursuing the character. I'd rather have the deviants in house so they can be more easily monitored and possibly guided away from being deviant. If the fan starts to stink even after, you'll probably see the person quit far before you ask them to leave.
If you're also upset with the idea that a permanent ban is wrong Haven, I can't argue a feeling at length. Forgiveness should be possible, because shrubbing and lack of interest should be the only reasons not to play the game. Karhast has it.
Organizational health was mentioned. Are you referring the prior points as damaging overall the harmony of the org, or that this is some separate crime? As the former, I don't get it. As the later, this sounds like, 'People don't agree with ME and don't PK with ME and won't do quests and instances with ME and won't vote for ME and won't donate to ME so I'm going to kick everyone that threatens my milestones and shops and whatever else I think is important including the org I currently control.'
I am probably assuming a lot. What in particular am I assuming that's so wrong to you?
Ensis
3
Re: RP environment - outguilding
was the OOC fear of
people who have had this feeling
felt like they've had to
there are players out there who fear
people who have had this feeling
felt like they've had to
there are players out there who fear
Sometimes people's feelings are just dumb, man. There's people who feel like all kinds of things, and catering to them all isn't going to help a soul. If you disagree with me, let it be known that I feel like disagreeing with me is equal to an acute attempt on my life, so please respect this feeling by not doing so.
Karhast
5
Re: RP environment - outguilding
Sometimes I get the impression that I'm the only old school D&D player here who remembers what it's like to pour hours, and sometimes years into a character only to experience perma death due to actions I took.
Were a bit spoiled in aetolia because nearly all "consequences" here can be reversed over time. You have to fuck up really bad multiple times to not get back into a guild or city eventually. I've seen someone literally piss off every city on the entire mud and still the admin said they had to be allowed a path back in.
Just get over it, go grab yourself a soy beverage, listen to some emo 90s punk music and contemplate what you really want for your character's life. Then come back and go in that direction because really, no one is stopping you other than yourself.
Were a bit spoiled in aetolia because nearly all "consequences" here can be reversed over time. You have to fuck up really bad multiple times to not get back into a guild or city eventually. I've seen someone literally piss off every city on the entire mud and still the admin said they had to be allowed a path back in.
Just get over it, go grab yourself a soy beverage, listen to some emo 90s punk music and contemplate what you really want for your character's life. Then come back and go in that direction because really, no one is stopping you other than yourself.
Drystin
6
Re: RP environment - outguilding
Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lolI didn't see the situation like that, no. I disagree 100%. You, not part of the event, want to argue for those that were? Besides that it's not my point that I'm making?
Ensis
1
Re: RP environment - outguilding
I'd put grass in quotes, but then I'd try figuring out how to make the thing the default word-wrap and still look good. Which would make me figure out what the game defaults for word-wrap, because I immediately set that to 0. If this is what the conversation distills into, there will always be something you want from the other half of the game, and you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Consequences give meaning to what you do, and barriers give challenge to the game, that's a game. Embrace the game.
I have actual opinions on the outguild button though. As explained in HELP 8.7:
While a Guildmaster may, at his or her option, choose to expel a guildmember, the Gods prefer that some leniency is given, especially for young members.
Kicking someone from a guild should happen never. If it does happen, the event should be well documented with a clear reason why it happened and what would be needed to allow said exile back into the guild. There is never a reason to permanently ban anyone, and no exiling should last longer than a real life year. Enemy status should not be maintained for longer than a year, though I'm completely cool with requiring that the exile ask to have enemy status actually lifted.
What situations demand a boot? If you can ISSUE the person, and you think you will win, you can probably go ahead with the boot. There are 0 other reasons to destroy someone's rank, put into question their works, destroy their ability to vote, remove their sanction privileges, and remove access to stuff within a guildhall for less. The room for abuse is huge.
Ensis
1
Re: Announce post #3123: Experimental Changes
My previous post stands. As far as changes, more recent threads detail those, and we do not have further plans to roll anything else back. Do check the more recent threads as I believe a lot of the problems with these changes have since been put to bed, save for elixir things.
Artifacts that are affected will be looked at to make sure they keep their value.
I'll close this thread as it's not the most recent version of discussion on these topics.
Artifacts that are affected will be looked at to make sure they keep their value.
I'll close this thread as it's not the most recent version of discussion on these topics.
Tiur
0
RP environment - outguilding
I am all for consequences in this game, as I have mentioned quite a few times before this. I am perfectly fine with characters being punished for their actions, whether this is mechanical or through RP, and I also think that death is more of a nuisance these days than something to be feared. What I don't like, however, is that outguilding is used as a threat of punishment for anything other than the more extreme cases, like "You betrayed our entire guild and fought alongside the enemy to kill your brethren!" Even that feels like it would be more likely that the person already has a foot out the door and should be contemplating leaving anyway.
Guilds, as they are now, are less consequential, since the focus is more on the cities. If someone has put effort into a guild, then they should be treasured. They chose to join that part of the game for a reason, and they have probably worked quite a bit for it in order to rise in rank. Some people even put in a -lot- of work, building a reputation, or helping out with making the guild a more fun place to be. Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.
I find it incredibly disheartening to know that there are players in this game who fear this so much that they don't dare to play out their characters' struggles the way they would want to. The reason being that they break the norm and that might be seen as bad by people with that dangerous outguilding privilege. This mentality makes it even more difficult to create some tension and conflict between tethers, as there are people in the game that are so hell-bent on preventing cross-tether RP that other players shy away from it completely.
That they do this out of fear that their character's actions might be misinterpreted, or incorrect assumptions are made, which subsequently leads to an outguilding, is even worse. That is not the right way to foster a good RP environment in this game.
The option should always be to interact about all aspects of the issues at hand, creating a solid foundation for all decisions made during the process. Instead of making an assumption about a situation, confront and interact. Instead of keeping the RP with only the person connected to you/your guild/your tether, bring in the other party to get all sides of a story. If that is not your character's inclination, threaten with death! If there is cross-tether tension, and this struggle is allowed to be played out with all parties involved, it opens up for a world of possibilities that would be otherwise locked away if one party is simply blocked from all interaction.
No one should ever be allowed to dictate how someone else plays their character.
If they want to play a Carnifex that struggles with the concept of Slaughter, because the bunnies are far too cute, let them! Are they Carnifex material? Maybe not to you, but time will tell! Allow them to play that concept out in their own time. Allow them to enjoy it to the fullest until they are ready to make a decision, without clamping down on them and forcing a change too quickly.
If they want to play out the struggle of switching tethers, let them. If they want to play a slow learner, let them. If they break the law, RP about it and punish accordingly, but keep away from blowing that punishment or the threat of it out of proportion. If they want to struggle with emotional issues, let them. If you want no part of it, back away. If they see that you are not interested in that kind of RP arc, they will find a different audience, or drop it as they choose.
Enforcing a "higher standard" for certain people in the game, or forcing people into boxes or categories, will only hurt the environment in the end, because it leaves no room for nuance, no room for natural mistakes. This is especially true if people are not allowed the time to work through them in their own time afterwards, or if they have that underlying fear of a disproportionate punishment, like outguilding.
In short, don't threaten with outguilding, because you risk doing more damage than good for the game as a whole. It should be a last resort, if used at all. Try to help make the game more enjoyable to people by fostering the RP environment rather than shoot people down for doing something outside the norm.
Guilds, as they are now, are less consequential, since the focus is more on the cities. If someone has put effort into a guild, then they should be treasured. They chose to join that part of the game for a reason, and they have probably worked quite a bit for it in order to rise in rank. Some people even put in a -lot- of work, building a reputation, or helping out with making the guild a more fun place to be. Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.
I find it incredibly disheartening to know that there are players in this game who fear this so much that they don't dare to play out their characters' struggles the way they would want to. The reason being that they break the norm and that might be seen as bad by people with that dangerous outguilding privilege. This mentality makes it even more difficult to create some tension and conflict between tethers, as there are people in the game that are so hell-bent on preventing cross-tether RP that other players shy away from it completely.
That they do this out of fear that their character's actions might be misinterpreted, or incorrect assumptions are made, which subsequently leads to an outguilding, is even worse. That is not the right way to foster a good RP environment in this game.
The option should always be to interact about all aspects of the issues at hand, creating a solid foundation for all decisions made during the process. Instead of making an assumption about a situation, confront and interact. Instead of keeping the RP with only the person connected to you/your guild/your tether, bring in the other party to get all sides of a story. If that is not your character's inclination, threaten with death! If there is cross-tether tension, and this struggle is allowed to be played out with all parties involved, it opens up for a world of possibilities that would be otherwise locked away if one party is simply blocked from all interaction.
No one should ever be allowed to dictate how someone else plays their character.
If they want to play a Carnifex that struggles with the concept of Slaughter, because the bunnies are far too cute, let them! Are they Carnifex material? Maybe not to you, but time will tell! Allow them to play that concept out in their own time. Allow them to enjoy it to the fullest until they are ready to make a decision, without clamping down on them and forcing a change too quickly.
If they want to play out the struggle of switching tethers, let them. If they want to play a slow learner, let them. If they break the law, RP about it and punish accordingly, but keep away from blowing that punishment or the threat of it out of proportion. If they want to struggle with emotional issues, let them. If you want no part of it, back away. If they see that you are not interested in that kind of RP arc, they will find a different audience, or drop it as they choose.
Enforcing a "higher standard" for certain people in the game, or forcing people into boxes or categories, will only hurt the environment in the end, because it leaves no room for nuance, no room for natural mistakes. This is especially true if people are not allowed the time to work through them in their own time afterwards, or if they have that underlying fear of a disproportionate punishment, like outguilding.
In short, don't threaten with outguilding, because you risk doing more damage than good for the game as a whole. It should be a last resort, if used at all. Try to help make the game more enjoyable to people by fostering the RP environment rather than shoot people down for doing something outside the norm.
Teani
7