RP environment - outguilding

TeaniTeani Shadow MistressSwedenMember Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am all for consequences in this game, as I have mentioned quite a few times before this. I am perfectly fine with characters being punished for their actions, whether this is mechanical or through RP, and I also think that death is more of a nuisance these days than something to be feared. What I don't like, however, is that outguilding is used as a threat of punishment for anything other than the more extreme cases, like "You betrayed our entire guild and fought alongside the enemy to kill your brethren!" Even that feels like it would be more likely that the person already has a foot out the door and should be contemplating leaving anyway.

Guilds, as they are now, are less consequential, since the focus is more on the cities. If someone has put effort into a guild, then they should be treasured. They chose to join that part of the game for a reason, and they have probably worked quite a bit for it in order to rise in rank. Some people even put in a -lot- of work, building a reputation, or helping out with making the guild a more fun place to be. Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.

I find it incredibly disheartening to know that there are players in this game who fear this so much that they don't dare to play out their characters' struggles the way they would want to. The reason being that they break the norm and that might be seen as bad by people with that dangerous outguilding privilege. This mentality makes it even more difficult to create some tension and conflict between tethers, as there are people in the game that are so hell-bent on preventing cross-tether RP that other players shy away from it completely.

That they do this out of fear that their character's actions might be misinterpreted, or incorrect assumptions are made, which subsequently leads to an outguilding, is even worse. That is not the right way to foster a good RP environment in this game.

The option should always be to interact about all aspects of the issues at hand, creating a solid foundation for all decisions made during the process. Instead of making an assumption about a situation, confront and interact. Instead of keeping the RP with only the person connected to you/your guild/your tether, bring in the other party to get all sides of a story. If that is not your character's inclination, threaten with death! If there is cross-tether tension, and this struggle is allowed to be played out with all parties involved, it opens up for a world of possibilities that would be otherwise locked away if one party is simply blocked from all interaction.

No one should ever be allowed to dictate how someone else plays their character.

If they want to play a Carnifex that struggles with the concept of Slaughter, because the bunnies are far too cute, let them! Are they Carnifex material? Maybe not to you, but time will tell! Allow them to play that concept out in their own time. Allow them to enjoy it to the fullest until they are ready to make a decision, without clamping down on them and forcing a change too quickly.

If they want to play out the struggle of switching tethers, let them. If they want to play a slow learner, let them. If they break the law, RP about it and punish accordingly, but keep away from blowing that punishment or the threat of it out of proportion. If they want to struggle with emotional issues, let them. If you want no part of it, back away. If they see that you are not interested in that kind of RP arc, they will find a different audience, or drop it as they choose.

Enforcing a "higher standard" for certain people in the game, or forcing people into boxes or categories, will only hurt the environment in the end, because it leaves no room for nuance, no room for natural mistakes. This is especially true if people are not allowed the time to work through them in their own time afterwards, or if they have that underlying fear of a disproportionate punishment, like outguilding.

In short, don't threaten with outguilding, because you risk doing more damage than good for the game as a whole. It should be a last resort, if used at all. Try to help make the game more enjoyable to people by fostering the RP environment rather than shoot people down for doing something outside the norm.



DrystinBenedictoLinOonaghKanivaraPhoeneciaArdentAyastiaTetchtaRhyotSessizlikCzciborCallidoraEphiSaltzOemeriaKaiaraEydis
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Comments

  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think there is a huge difference between playing out a character who struggles to come to terms with a new position in life, whether by changing guilds or just joining something as a novice, which is what I tried to describe, and wanting to play an outright contrast to what that guild represents. Maybe I wasn't clear enough about that.

    I agree. I don't think it would be right to have a Slaver Templar, but a former Slaver who joins the Templar might not be a perfect example of a Knight straight away. If they want to play out the slow transition to their new situation, why is that so wrong? I'm not saying they should remain that way, because they obviously joined for a reason, nor am I saying that punishment shouldn't exist if said Templar decided to buy a slave. By all means, punish away, because there should be reasonable consequences.

    What I am saying is that it's not up to you to decide how quick said transition should be. Perhaps the Slaver has to come to certain realizations first, and keeps struggling this out in smaller RP sessions over time. Perhaps he makes a few mistakes along the way, and gets punished, and then makes some new ones, and gets punished. However, if the threat of outguilding for making further mistakes looms overhead, it might cause undue stress and hamper people from actually getting to the point they wanted to see before making that turn.
    Oonagh said:


    I did as Archmage, and I had roleplay reason to do so, and I was never unreasonable in my approach, offering mediation, discussion and opportunity to remedy issues.

    This is the part I think is the most important, if outguilding is ever an option. However, that has not always been the case, and there are players who still fear this being used unfairly. Even if it is never stated that someone might be outguilded doesn't mean they might perceive that as a threat. I just think people should be more careful with it, and make sure that others know that it's not going to be used lightly or as a quick response to something that just happened. That is my main reason for bring that up. Players with the privilege to outguild need to know that there is are good ways to approach it, and players who fear it happening need to know what to expect before that becomes a risk.



  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    Hi, I'm Satomi, and I would like to contribute to this intense debate on the merits of outguilding and ORG RP Expectations.

    Basically, what Elene and Benedicto mentioned. That is my general opinion on it, and there isn't too much I can add to make it better.

    There is the factor of people's RP. Some people RP highly emotional characters, I am sure. Some RP highly logical characters, and there is a wide set of people between that. While I don't advocate for lasting, harsh punishments from people RPing dicks, consideration has to be taken into account that if such a person were the one doling out punishments, it could very well be more harsh than you would find reasonable. Just like a gentler character might be more kind in their punishments.

    You have to also take into account a character's history. If someone has a history of switching guilds or swapping tethers every couple months, you can expect people to not be as open and free with information, or as invested in that person's performance.

    If someone RPs as a thief, but claims that they aren't one and that that behavior was when they were in their 20s. Regardless of how old they are, if someone remembers that reputation they had, they'll be a bit more paranoid about their belongings.

    If I decided that Tomi is now a refined, classy lady, people are going to be confused because the last time I heavily RP'd her, she was an erratic, excitable, chompy bug.

    These sorts of things influence punishments, behaviors, and consequences.

    KanivaraOonaghArdentAyastia
  • AyastiaAyastia Member Posts: 43 ✭✭
    I don't think I have seen anyone outright outguilded from the fex. Including a person who shouted at the leadership that they run the guild like a bunch of bullies and we should be ashamed of how we act
  • AyastiaAyastia Member Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.

    i would just like to add that is the point of the punishment. If the punishment doesn't hurt in some way, it's not a punishment. 
  • KanivaraKanivara Member Posts: 26 ✭✭✭
    edited August 25
    Hmm.
    Ehtias said:

    I think outguilding if you don't align with the guilds principles after a decent period of time and cause issues due to it is reasonable personally. Also since the Fex were used as an example, it's very Militaristic org so we have rules and such to follow. However if you manage to get outguilded to the Fex i'd actually be impressed. Pretty much everyone in the Fex does some form of "weird" unicorns and we're run by a drunk troll toddler with dogs and a large hammer.

    But yeah outguilding as a form of punishment for failure to match up with a guilds mission or laws is completely acceptable in my opinion anyways. Not as a first or even second offense perhaps but further down the line yes.

    I've known of 3 in my time as a Fex. 1 for lying to leadership about someone trying to steal from the guild shop in a way that was mechanically impossible, 1 for being an absolute skeeve, 1 for a major security breach. Names are withheld because that only matters within the Carnifex, and I'm not posting this to start drama.

    Besides, everyone in the Fex knows that Rabbits can sometimes be pretty vicious! ;)
    Ayastia
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I feel like I was being partly misunderstood, but I'll chalk it up to bad communication on my part. Anyway...
    Ayastia said:

    Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.

    i would just like to add that is the point of the punishment. If the punishment doesn't hurt in some way, it's not a punishment. 

    I would like to think that people in this community are not completely ignorant of the fact that there are cliques in the game who have used outguilding as a way to remove people they dislike, or perhaps even know those who have been outguilded as a result of a temper tantrum or even without someone checking the facts of a situation. I've most certainly heard of plenty of those. While I am glad to see examples of outguilding handled well, it still remains an issue that could use some high-lighting. There are people out there who fear being thrown or even forced out on a whim (meaning with little warning, no chance to explain or try to prevent the outguilding by making amends). Discussing this openly might at least offer them a chance to see that this is not considered widely acceptable. At least I hope people can agree on that?



    Oemeria
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On conforming to the mold:
    Again, I was not saying that someone should be allowed to freely play completely contrary to a guild's mindset or ideology, nor was I claiming it should be a process where the extreme contrast is displayed for decades on end. The time it would take to change would naturally depend on how much baggage there is, and end with something that feels like a natural product. I was saying that they might want to play out a transition period and savor that as a character-building change, rather than just hop and drop. Making someone feel like they need to fit the mold perfectly almost from the get-go is what I take issue with, almost as much as people suddenly deciding to trust someone immediately upon converting.

    As someone smart told me, though, I suppose you are setting yourself up for a bit more struggle if you decide to join a guild immediately, rather than simply starting out with a city to get a good feel for it. That might give you more time to transition properly.



    Tetchta
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    edited August 25
    Outguilding is fine, especially since the barrier to class acquisition is paper thin these days. Some guilds have had nepotism/toxicity/despotism problems that have impacted the game negatively, but usually the admin step in to fix a guild if it's really struggling and hurting the game.

    Edit edit:nevermind, I can't read
    Post edited by Tetchta on

  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited August 25
    Teani said:


    I would like to think that people in this community are not completely ignorant of the fact that there are cliques in the game who have used outguilding as a way to remove people they dislike, or perhaps even know those who have been outguilded as a result of a temper tantrum or even without someone checking the facts of a situation. I've most certainly heard of plenty of those. While I am glad to see examples of outguilding handled well, it still remains an issue that could use some high-lighting. There are people out there who fear being thrown or even forced out on a whim (meaning with little warning, no chance to explain or try to prevent the outguilding by making amends). Discussing this openly might at least offer them a chance to see that this is not considered widely acceptable. At least I hope people can agree on that?

    To comment on this part, I've been outguilded from Bouchard for pretty much that reason. The person in charge either disliked Satomi or thought she was a threat to their power or some such. All I ever did was beat him consistently in combat and get more popular.. but that is beside the point.

    I do understand that everyone has a hierarchy of orgs that they would be devastated if they were kicked out of, for right or wrong reasons, and the more egregious examples of this seem to end with admin intervention... as Tetchta said.

    It didn't affect me as badly as, say, getting randomly ousted from the Carnifex would have, but it can be incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. The only real consolation I could offer is that this game is long term. You could be ousted by the current leadership, then return to the Guild at a later date, or move to a better one. At the very least, if you are invested into Aetolia, it will force you to evaluate your character. How much of their actions are dictated by the guild they are in versus their ideals and morality. Being in a Guild helped me establish my character, but after a certain point, she had a personality. The Guild was basically a chat room/loose goal-creator after that.

    If I were to be kicked out of the Carnifex, I would be heartbroken.. but it wouldn't change who Satomi is. She would definitely be a salty little bug out to make someone's life miserable (as she vowed to do with the person who ousted her from Bouchard, despite the fact that he is no longer involved on that character).

    Anyway, long post to essentially say tl;dr: If your character can only survive in a single guild/city/org, and being rogue in any of these parts is out of the question, then it is time to dig deep and figure out who that character is, and if it is worth investing into.

    (Edit:) A lot of us who have been around a while have likely had an instance that feels similar to either being forced out, or just being straight up kicked out. In the instances where Admins didn't intervene, it was very much a "Time to move on" sort of response, if we stuck around. It can be demoralizing, depending on the level of investment you put into the org, but Aet always has another adventure somewhere over the next hill. Just need the drive to climb up that steep side.

    Ardent
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was gonna make a comment about Sessi being kicked from the Ascendrils once for doing research. Was fun times, or something... Sessi has been told, more than once, that she is not allowed to join certain guilds at all, because she's "too soft". Now that pisses me off. And it's not just one guild, it's been several guilds flat out telling her no and basically laughing in her face when she's brought up the thought of joining. Sure, Sessi is a happy-go-lucky person who doesn't do combat. She's not afraid of letting people know she grew up as a pacifist and vegetarian. She's changed since then, and even if she's not a grand combatant, she at least tries to help at lessers and orrery.

    My point here is, all guilds need a mix of people. Scholars and combatants, tradition and progression, soft and hard, and above all, all hues of grey. Not everyone is a hardcore combatant with a stone-face. Not everyone is a dusty historian who knows everything. Not everyone is a superb crafter. Does that mean those in the middle are not worthy? NO! We can bring just as much to the plate as anyone else. So please, for Varian's sake, let people play out insecurities or softer sides or slower transitions, because not everyone will change in seconds. I doubt anyone of you would be able to make swift changes like that irl.
    image
    LinOemeria
  • AyastiaAyastia Member Posts: 43 ✭✭
    edited August 26
    I agree with this but that isn't the discussion here. Barring someone from a guild when they are not enemied is ridiculous. Kicking someone out for breaking guild laws is a completely different matter. 
    Post edited by Ayastia on
    ArdentKanivara
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26
    It's somewhat deals with said topic though. I know the situation this is about. Someone wants to not instantly become a perfect member of a guild, but instead wants to rp out a transition, rp out some doubts, be able to change into a "better" person over time, because things like that -does not happen overnight-. My post was to point out that many guilds are elitist and won't even give grey areas a chance. And I am not meaning that they should be able to remain in that grey area forever, just that CHANGE TAKE TIME. And that ALL kinds of characters can be valuable to a guild.
    Edited because of salt.
    image
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's grey area and then there's grey area. Remember that no one person's RP exists in a vacuum. Cross tether RP is enjoyable and not fitting in the mold of the perfect member of whatever guild is absolutely fine.

    BUT.

    You need to be aware of the potential consequences if you stray too far, if guild leadership isn't 100% on board with whatever you're doing, if your city catches wind of something and decides to act, or, particularly for organizations on the Spirit tether, if the admin catch wind of something bad enough and decide to step in.

    For a long, long time a lot of orgs on Spirit side were headed by people taking a hard line on association even with the removal of formal association laws. Good or bad, they had their reasons. I don't think many, if any, of those orgs are actively looking to punish people for not fitting in the mold or cross tether rp. But they still have to be careful, they're still answerable to their guilds and cities and patrons. All sorts of characters can be valuable to a guild, that's very true, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise these days. But there's a risk/reward proposition for guild and city leadership allowing certain behaviors. Sometimes it's a hard call if the reward and benefit measures up to the potential risks.

    Seurimas
  • AyastiaAyastia Member Posts: 43 ✭✭
    edited August 26
    Sessizlik said:
    It's somewhat deals with said topic though. I know the situation this is about. Someone wants to not instantly become a perfect member of a guild, but instead wants to rp out a transition, rp out some doubts, be able to change into a "better" person over time, because things like that -does not happen overnight-. My post was to point out that many guilds are elitist and won't even give grey areas a chance. And I am not meaning that they should be able to remain in that grey area forever, just that CHANGE TAKE TIME. And that ALL kinds of characters can be valuable to a guild. Edited because of salt.
    Look, here is the thing. And I will use Ayastia as an example. 

    She made for a terrible syssin when I got back into the game. She was given chance after chance. It finally got to the point where, without thinking about it, she spilled some secrets. She was to be removed but, knowing her mistakes, she decided to instead ask permission to remove herself. But do not doubt, she was going to be ousted. And it was the right call. Chances to get better only last so long. And if it is the situation I am thinking of, the character is not a newb. He is established and knows the laws of his guild. The simple fact is the laws are there for a reason. If you break them, especially the more crucial ones, expect to be removed from the guild. It's that simple. 
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xavin said:


    particularly for organizations on the Spirit tether

    This is not quite true, though, is it? Admin has stepped in on both sides.
    Xavin said:


    But they still have to be careful, they're still answerable to their guilds and cities and patrons.

    This is sort of self-imposed, though. If someone wants to push for something new, so long as it doesn't run completely contrary to Admin views and general guild/city mission and ideology, shouldn't that be fine? Sure, there might be some people who complain, but they're free to either contest or move on, right? One would think that after all these years without formal association laws, there could have been room for a bit of a change.



  • KanivaraKanivara Member Posts: 26 ✭✭✭
    Spirit has had unwritten association rules for at least 2 years, probably closer to 2.5. They might not be written, but it's well known that Spirit people are not allowed to have intimate relationships with those of the Shadow tether because Shadow is destructive. Shadow classes aren't allowed inside Duiran... you can be Shadow Tether and be there, but if the class you're in actively uses Shadow you cannot be there. Ambient shadow does not count. Enorian has a formal rule forbidding those of the Shadow Tether from walking around Enorian without an escort, it's directly in their city laws.

    They've gone back to a harder stance on this because of admin pushing the "Shadow is destructive" aspect. They don't want to risk the plane, especially after Severn nuked the Indorani guildhall with a droplet of pure extraplanar elemental Shadow.

    It's not self-imposed, it's admin imposed, and it's moreso on Spirit side than Shadow side. The only time the admin have stepped in with regards to how a Shadow org is run has been with the recent NPC takeover of the Archivists, which was directly due to OOC toxicity in the leadership and had nothing to do with IC ideology or anything like that.

    Boning the enemy is against the general guild/city mission and ideology of the Spirit Tether. You can be friends but even that gets side-eyed hard. Friendships don't get threats of outguilding. I'm aware of that thanks to the cross tether friendships my characters have; I do have a Spirit character.

    If you want to take things to the next level and be closer than casual friends or family, you've gotta side hop. It's been that way for close to 2.5 yrs now.
    PhoeneciaXavinAyastia
  • SibattiSibatti Amidst vibrant flora and treesMember Posts: 275 ✭✭✭✭
    I realize that I haven't been around for those 2.5 years / those events that took place, and can't speak for the nuances.... but I would hope that we're able to pull back or somehow evolve from what appears to be a very rudimentary storytelling trope of "shadow/corruption bad no touchy." Maybe it's the interpretation that we're failing to execute properly, as citizens. I would hope so! And maybe that's all there needs to be done, is to try and go at it another way. I've long since operated under the "more flies with honey than vinegar" approach with Sib, and her stance towards the other team. For her, conversion is the only real path of victory, since extermination isn't likely.

    Makes me realize that this could be a topic for the Leaders board - would/could/should we ask these questions in this fashion, it would be nice to have admin weigh-in before taking the reins and going somewhere in a direction that would be perceived as unacceptable.
    Teani
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26
    I'm pretty sure I know what situation this whole thread was created from, so let's talk about what it's REALLY about.

    This argument is not about the fear of getting outguilded because someone or a group of people in leadership don't like you. It's not about being worried about being kicked out for not fitting into a mold you're being forced into because as I've mentioned previously, guilds are pretty transparent with what they're about, what they expect, and in joining the org, you're opting into it. And even then? Most orgs are kinda lenient in how far you can stray from the mold, in my experience, and I say that as someone that plays a character that really pushes the boundaries kind of hard.

    But no. What this is REALLY about is the handling of cross-tether relations. Which... Really isn't much of an issue with the exception of one scenario. So let me break it down a little. I've been in pretty much every org Spirit side, and I have frequently had cross-tether RP without issue. Hell. Phoe's got some pretty close friends Shadow side. This has not really been much of an issue because these days, I draw a pretty hard line. For the most part, this is the case for most people, and guilds and cities allow that kind of fraternization to an extent because its actually not that bad.

    Intimate or romantic relationships are another story, which is what the crux of this whole topic really is. And yeah. I'm guilty of this myself. Like, seriously. Almost every Spirit org has laws specifically forbidding intimate relations or romantic relationships. And people go against it all the time. And they KNOW they're going against it. This isn't a grey area thing where you're trying to push the boundaries of the established mold. Haaaaa. No. You get found out? Most orgs will give you a chance to come back from it, but really. Stop and think about it. You willfully went against the org's established RP. Which you opted into when you joined. Who's in the wrong here?

    If you really, REALLY want that little romance, the simplest solution is either go rogue or side hop. Don't get upset at orgs for having (honestly kinda reasonable) an RP stance they stick to. People will either go with their org's RP or if they don't like it or don't agree, find elsewhere. That's really the short of it.

    And if you really don't want to leave your org, well. Like I mentioned previously, that's really on you.

    Edit: So. My point has some elaboration on why in regards to Spirit side, friendships with Shadow side people are okay, but romantic relations are not. In my experience, both having been a participant and an observer, it really comes down to selfishness. Yes, you can argue that the whole forbidden romance thing is a compelling story and that enforcing org RP and restricting tether relations crushes that kind of thing. Allowing Shadow side friendships is pretty lenient, but romantic relations are that hard line. Crossing that line is ultimately a selfish decision, and kind of says you don't really care too much about the org's stance or RP.
    Post edited by Phoenecia on
    Kanivara
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 527 ✭✭✭✭
    I feel like a lot of you are misconstruing cross-tether RP with interpersonal RP.

    Cross-tether RP is something that typically doesn't happen. Enorian isn't going to come up to Bloodloch and start trying to have a conversation with them because there's no reason to, unless the admin force this objective (Re: Nesventesh and Baelak). The same could be said of guilds. Why would the Templars dare talk to the Dominion or Carnifex unless it was to make a blatant threat of "You filthy dirty Shadow people. DIE!!!" More often times than not, most forms of cross-tether RP is blatantly frowned upon and will always lead to fighting, anger, vitriol, and ultimately is almost ALWAYS admin driven.

    Interpersonal RP are those random moments where you specifically only interact with very specific individuals from the opposite tether. You have theological differences and different walks of life, but it's between you and this person. This is largely different from cross-tether RP because you are not involving your orgs or large majority of people from your two separate organizations. These RP arcs are almost ALWAYS player drive.


    That said, interpersonal RP situations do have times where you have a to make a determination of what is acceptable by your organizations. The reason why this often gets misconstrued as cross-tether RP is because now a specific org is getting involved in the matter of interpersonal RP.

    Personally, I don't quite care what guilds do to their guildmates. I've been in two guilds, one was destroyed by the Admins (RIP Bloodborn) and the second was well... yeah. In either case, all actions have consequences. Whether or not the consequences fit the crime is a different story, whether or not there's a way to mitigate said consequences is another story as well. In the end... people will do what people will do.


    TeaniRhineSatomiKanivara
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 148 ✭✭✭
    why does everyone keep using the carnifex as an example......
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    KanivaraAeryxAloli
  • TekiasTekias WisconsinMember Posts: 448 ✭✭✭
    Rijetta said:

    why does everyone keep using the carnifex as an example......

    Because we're good role models
    Formerly: Spiegel. Eidycue.

    Hi.

    image
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 527 ✭✭✭✭
    Because the Carnifex is pretty much the only active guild in BL with the most active members.

    Take it as a compliment!! :D


  • IadraIadra Member Posts: 10
    The thread has the feel of trying to point to a specific situation without mentioning names.

    Which is making people make sweeping statements that don't seem to apply to the normal course of affairs outside of this one specific situation.
    Aloli
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