RP environment - outguilding

Tetchta

Ensis said:

Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.

This is so hilariously inconsistent with how every guild in the entire game works that I'm honestly not sure that you're logging into the same one as everyone else. I'd say, like, in 70% of guilds across the board, PKing ANY guild members is an instant boot (context pending). Trying to PK people who are guild leadership is gonna push into the "barely anybody will tolerate that level of insubordination."

Your weird fixation on whether or not a PK is issuable completely misses both what issues are for and what guilds are in their entirety.

ISSUE pretty much only exists as an OOC means to either resolve disputes or fix random other problems that require admin intervention (a good non-PK/harassment example was one time I bought something from someone with credits and they mailed it, and the mail for some reason took FOREVER to get delivered, and I almost issued for a resolution when suddenly the damn dove showed up). Issues are NOT the be all, end all of IC character conflict, and HELP PK has practically no bearing on player run organizations when it comes to laws.

Guilds are exclusively In-Character institutions, so HELP PK and ISSUES are woefully inadequate standards and comically flimsy guides for Guild Laws/outguilding standards. If a PK has gotten into Issue Territory, it's already way, way, way beyond anything player-run organizations were designed to handle.

Rijetta

Dog you were outguilded for actively and flagrantly choosing another org - one that was at the time hostile and oppositional - over your guild, and outing yourself by jumping and attacking a guild leader with no rp - then, when I curbstomped you, you came back and did it again! And got curbstomped again!

I'd have absolutely just demoted you for the first one. Emotions run high. But stop trying to co-opt this thread and twist the narrative to make it seem like you're some victim of a bygone era, when in truth, you are the poster child of what an appropriate outguilding looks like. Get over it so we can get back to gossiping about Teani and Sryaen's sexy dark forbidden tryst.

Tetchta

Rijetta said:

...so we can get back to gossiping about Teani and Sryaen's sexy dark forbidden tryst.

Speaking of are you gonna give us logs @Teani or @Sryaen because I love me some forbidden romance scenes 👀

Haven

Ensis said:

Haven said:

You're assuming a lot @Ensis.
...
I cannot speak for the others but that's what I disagree with. There are many reasons and situations that call for outguilding. Treason (Selling guild secrets, stealing from the guild, killing guild members [especially leadership], actively going against guild goals and ideals, etc.) tends to be the common reason that outguildings occur. Although not as often cited and usually open to a wide berth of interpretation and thus typically more open to disputes, organizational health is another valid reason for outguilding someone. The list can go on really.

Treason. You gave examples. I can argue the examples.

• Selling guild secrets. Unless it's regarding an event happening right now, or OrgReq/divine/future stuff, I'm not impressed. If it is, admin will probably act before the guild will. Granted, you can probably cover the most egregious violations under...
• Stealing from the guild. Internal theft is an acceptable reason. I actually should have made an exception for it. I would temper this with what's actually being stolen, but in cases where it's a guild problem you're probably clear to do it. External theft, one of your members stealing other people's stuff, will probably get handled before the guild gets to touch it. I can't tell who allows or encourages it anymore.
• Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
• Actively going against guild goals and ideals. This is dependent on the guild, and I'd rather discuss individual issues then make a blanket statement. There's few actions a player can take that so violate 'ideals' enough to actively harm the rest of the guild. What Elene is joking about is w/e to me. Pregnant vampires and undead are worse. Letting your ents get killed/harvested for... w/e, is much worse. Even if you let these deviants go from the guild, and get someone from the city to kick them too, they retain class and continue debasing precious lore for as long as they're interested in pursuing the character. I'd rather have the deviants in house so they can be more easily monitored and possibly guided away from being deviant. If the fan starts to stink even after, you'll probably see the person quit far before you ask them to leave.

Treason, as applied, is vague to me. I don't like making the exception for it alone. I'm going to instead provide a few more items that don't invite vagueness and abuse: vandalism (property, HELP scrolls, and clans); actively helping an enemy raid against the guild, its city, or its allies declared in a treaty; actively reporting GT, GWHO, or guild/clan news posts to outside individuals (alt abuse in general); and other stuff that'll probably end up as an ISSUE to get cleaned up. Which was my stipulation anyway.

If you're also upset with the idea that a permanent ban is wrong Haven, I can't argue a feeling at length. Forgiveness should be possible, because shrubbing and lack of interest should be the only reasons not to play the game. Karhast has it.

Organizational health was mentioned. Are you referring the prior points as damaging overall the harmony of the org, or that this is some separate crime? As the former, I don't get it. As the later, this sounds like, 'People don't agree with ME and don't PK with ME and won't do quests and instances with ME and won't vote for ME and won't donate to ME so I'm going to kick everyone that threatens my milestones and shops and whatever else I think is important including the org I currently control.'

I am probably assuming a lot. What in particular am I assuming that's so wrong to you?

Not everyone plays Aetolia the same way or for the same reasons. Not everyone even roleplays or respects the roleplay of others. You seem to be operating under the assumption that you're entitled to certain experiences and being apart of a guild. In the past, you were entitled to GR3 in order to obtain class but with the addition of multiclass, focal shift to cities, and the expansion of apprenticeship, I believe it's safe to say that guild's being any kind of right is no longer a thing. Actions have consequences and like a friend of mine once said: "You're allowed to be salty that your RP didn't pan out. This, however, does not mean that there's something wrong with the system."

Some players forget that there's a political aspect present in the game. It's in the roles we choose to portray, the groups we associate with, the leaders we elect and very much how we present ourselves to the in-game community. Can egos and despotism rear its ugly head sometimes? Can harsh punishments be doled out? Can things be unfair? Sure but I'd argue that's a byproduct and reflection of a dynamic and living role-play world. You might not respect it or even be readily aware of it but it's still there and that's the reality of the game.

Unless we're looking to change the framework of the game from a dynamic exploration of conflict in a 'dark setting' to simply become a chatroom that has occasional competitive elements via PK and contests... I'm not for removing one of the few teeth an organization has to manage its members roleplay. If there's a serious conduct problem, you can always use the ISSUE command to notify the admin and have them come take a look at the situation.

Sryaen

Tetchta said:

Rijetta said:

...so we can get back to gossiping about Teani and Sryaen's sexy dark forbidden tryst.

Speaking of are you gonna give us logs @Teani or @Sryaen because I love me some forbidden romance scenes 👀

i gotchu, b

Kaiara

ijs I make my RP decisions based off my personal interpretation of my character and her direction - that includes potential consequences as motivation or deterrent. It's like deciding to wear a coat or not when it rains - consequences exist and I work into or around them as needed.

To complain about them is ridiculous, in my opinion. A game without consequences - or with consequences lighter than these (***I have never played a game where the admin demand people be given a path back into an org they ticked off?? Wild. ThereAreNoRules.gif) - would not be worth playing, honestly.

Edit: ***I know they do that here. I meant not until THIS game!

Aeryx

There are only consequences if the clique you're in think you should have consequences. It's been that way for basically the entire existence of these games. People will try to put consequences on you with zero proof, and people will unsuccessfully try and put consequences on you when they have your admission to wrong doing, and fail. Basically, since this is a video game that is admittedly social, it's mostly ran by a bunch of cliques, and it doesn't have silly real life things like 'truth and justice'.

If you run afoul of the status quo for x y z reasons, be prepared to have a bad time. It is what it is.

Kaiara

Aeryx said:

Basically, since this is a video game that is admittedly social, it's mostly ran by a bunch of cliques, and it doesn't have silly real life things like 'truth and justice'.

This is exactly the same as life, though. In much the same way, you have to outplay, outwit, and outlast to get to where you want to go - even if it doesn't seem fair. Aetolia is, as you say, a microcosm that involves social gameplay - including consequences, regardless of how they may not seem to be applied to another from your personal viewpoint. It's just part of the game.

Tetchta

Aeryx said:

There are only consequences if the clique you're in think you should have consequences.

I'm starting to think that we should put a moratorium on the word "clique" because I see it bandied about waaaaaaaaaay too much in these sorts of conversations. Aetolia is a large community, and sub communities within a community this large are absolutely normal. In the biz, we call it "having friends." It's a social game for crying out loud. It's very bizarre to me to see a word with a predominantly negative connotation used to describe what is, frankly, really normal behavior.

Haven

To circle back to the topic at hand and clarify a few points:

Teani said:

[...] If someone has put effort into a guild, then they should be treasured. They chose to join that part of the game for a reason [...]

No one should ever be allowed to dictate how someone else plays their character.

If they want to play a Carnifex that struggles with the concept of Slaughter, because the bunnies are far too cute, let them! Are they Carnifex material? Maybe not to you, but time will tell!

Enforcing a "higher standard" for certain people in the game, or forcing people into boxes or categories, will only hurt the environment in the end, because it leaves no room for nuance, no room for natural mistakes. This is especially true if people are not allowed the time to work through them in their own time afterwards, or if they have that underlying fear of a disproportionate punishment, like outguilding.

In short, don't threaten with outguilding, because you risk doing more damage than good for the game as a whole. It should be a last resort, if used at all. Try to help make the game more enjoyable to people by fostering the RP environment rather than shoot people down for doing something outside the norm.

Sometimes we get caught up in the nuanced details of the individual trees that we forget or lose sight of the larger forest around us. While it is true that no player should dictate how another player chooses to play their own character, that does not also mean they must respond to our decisions based on how we want them to either. Whether it's with impatience, arrogance, or a rigid conservatism of clinging to different values than our own, keep in mind that their response is just as valid role-play as ours. Even if it means it can be negative to our experience.

People play Aetolia for many different reasons and approach the game accordingly. Some people just want to chill after a long RL day while others want to blow off some steam and fight. Some want to find romance or friendship for their characters. Others want to explore morality or push boundaries. Some players want to be so engrossed and immersed in the game while others desire a casual or complete opposite experience being concerned with only the mechanics. All are valid approaches. The real key here, however, is learning to find our audience and recognizing the types of players we come across as we tell our stories.

I can assure you that the "slow changing conversion" or the "deviance from norms" RP can be done and at your own pace on both sides of the game. I've done it with varying levels of success over the years; with one arc being as recent as April. I've seen others accomplish it as well. If it's something you enjoy and you want to explore, so long as you're not breaking game rules, the best advice I can give is to just go for it and explore the conflict. See what happens. While we might find that our roleplay gets us outguilded or maybe we come to the realization that we just don't mesh with the current crowd of our organization of choice for whatever reason, that's just as natural as a progression as if it went the other way. The game has taken some wonderful quality of life approaches over the years that has given roleplayers more freedom in crafting their stories without losing access to critical mechanics like class.

Rhyot

Tetchta

Ayastia

Tetchta said:

There are only consequences if the clique you're in think you should have consequences.

I'm starting to think that we should put a moratorium on the word "clique" because I see it bandied about waaaaaaaaaay too much in these sorts of conversations. Aetolia is a large community, and sub communities within a community this large are absolutely normal. In the biz, we call it "having friends." It's a social game for crying out loud. It's very bizarre to me to see a word with a predominantly negative connotation used to describe what is, frankly, really normal behavior.

I've been wondering how to address this. If anything bad ever happens to your character, people want to blame it on cliques. Yes, sometimes it happens. But nobody ever wants to step back and ask 'did my character deserve this'

Tetchta

It's almost like we play characters in a society and aren't just playing World of Warcraft 🤔

Ehtias

Tetchta said:

It's almost like we play characters in a society and aren't just playing World of Warcraft 🤔

I feel attacked.

Sryaen

excuse me, sir, but some of us played on RP servers in WoW

(SILVER HAND GANG)