RP environment - outguilding

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  • LinLin Blackbird The MoongladeMember Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iadra said:

    The thread has the feel of trying to point to a specific situation without mentioning names.

    Which is making people make sweeping statements that don't seem to apply to the normal course of affairs outside of this one specific situation.

    It's absolutely just vaguebooking, which is the only entertainment we seem capable of in this game anymore
    Sryaen
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the main issues I was speaking of in my posts, and have tried to repeatedly highlight, was the OOC fear of being outguilded without being able to clear things up. For example, say that someone misinterprets interaction, or makes assumptions and accusations based on them, which then ends up with someone being thrown out without RP. It has happened in the past.

    Even if some of this is connected to something very recent (which people have been alluding to in their posts), it is not the isolated incidence they seem to believe it is. I know of several people who have had this feeling, and felt like they've had to tiptoe around certain people because of it.

    Once again, I am glad to see that there are good examples of leaders who don't use this method, but it remains a problem that people need to be aware of; there are players out there who fear this might happen to them. If the community can't see that this is a problem, I don't know what else to say. All I can really ask is to make sure there's always an open line of communication, and that people around them know that it's alright to speak up about it.



  • IazamatIazamat Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭✭
    I got outguilded without RP or even a message as to why - all because of a twisted interpretation of a guild law. I had to follow up and initiate the resulting conflict. It happens. Unless the administration is willing to sit down and come to a consensus with the input of players to codify concrete rules regarding the use of outguilding, it falls to player policing. And, sadly, while I do think there is a greater discussion to be had regarding how outguilding has been used/should be used, I think the majority consensus will probably fall on "as long as the offender has class, outguilding can be done for (nearly) any RP reason."
    Aeryx
  • EnsisEnsis Member Posts: 27
    edited August 27
    I'd put grass in quotes, but then I'd try figuring out how to make the thing the default word-wrap and still look good. Which would make me figure out what the game defaults for word-wrap, because I immediately set that to 0.

    If this is what the conversation distills into, there will always be something you want from the other half of the game, and you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Consequences give meaning to what you do, and barriers give challenge to the game, that's a game. Embrace the game.

    I have actual opinions on the outguild button though. As explained in HELP 8.7:
    While a Guildmaster may, at his or her option, choose to expel a guildmember, the Gods prefer that some leniency is given, especially for young members.

    Kicking someone from a guild should happen never. If it does happen, the event should be well documented with a clear reason why it happened and what would be needed to allow said exile back into the guild. There is never a reason to permanently ban anyone, and no exiling should last longer than a real life year. Enemy status should not be maintained for longer than a year, though I'm completely cool with requiring that the exile ask to have enemy status actually lifted.

    What situations demand a boot? If you can ISSUE the person, and you think you will win, you can probably go ahead with the boot. There are 0 other reasons to destroy someone's rank, put into question their works, destroy their ability to vote, remove their sanction privileges, and remove access to stuff within a guildhall for less. The room for abuse is huge.
    Post edited by Ensis on
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  • AyastiaAyastia Member Posts: 43 ✭✭
    I mean it all sounds to me that you think your personal fun is more important than the guild laws that are clearly on display for anyone to read, not just members. As others said, have your rp but be ready for consequences. And yes, those consequences can be outguilding, or even being thrown from a city. If not, why even have the laws?
    XavinKanivaraEladrian
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The larger question is an interesting topic to me but I'm unsure if it's even worth discussing in this context because it ultimately begs the question "what is 'good' roleplay". In my opinion, that question will always be too subjective to narrow into any kind of consensus in a game like this where most of the roleplay elements of the game are purposefully open-ended and or obscure.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
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  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haven said:

    The larger question is an interesting topic to me but I'm unsure if it's even worth discussing in this context because it ultimately begs the question "what is 'good' roleplay". In my opinion, that question will always be too subjective to narrow into any kind of consensus in a game like this where most of the roleplay elements of the game are purposefully open-ended and or obscure.

    As long as it makes sense in character and is at least partially organic it would be good roleplay, at least in my opinion. Orchestrated scenes are a thing that happen, it's just the way it is. As long as something makes sense for a character to do I don't think it's a problem - but consequences, etc.

  • ChurchChurch Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
    mother of god
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  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    Ensis said:

    I've been personally affected by the getting kicked from the Carnifex (hi, Kasimir), and want to know if my expectations are wrong. I've been told to ISSUE regarding said outguilding, but why? I don't know if I have a leg to stand on without ground beneath my feet.

    Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lol


    IazamatRijettaAyastia
  • EnsisEnsis Member Posts: 27
    Tetchta said:

    Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lol

    I didn't see the situation like that, no. I disagree 100%. You, not part of the event, want to argue for those that were? Besides that it's not my point that I'm making?
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  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    edited August 27
    Ensis said:

    Tetchta said:

    Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lol

    I didn't see the situation like that, no. I disagree 100%. You, not part of the event, want to argue for those that were? Besides that it's not my point that I'm making?
    Every young Carnifex is familiar with The Tragedy of Darth Kasimir the Wise. It's taught to us during the Reaper stage.

    edit: Pre-emptively saying I deserve all the off-topic ratings I get.

    EnsisArdentDrystin
  • EscelikaEscelika Member Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
    Each case should be looked at differently. If someone goes against the RP of a guild I think a few things should be considered before threats/outguilding happens. Consider how what they're doing is destructive towards the guild, their guildmates, the city, the reputation of the guild, and the overall image. If it's not actively causing membership to drop or building conflicts between organizations, it might be good for the guild to have a different voice from time-to-time.

    A complete and outright counter to the RP is a different case. A templar who murders children and sleeps with vampires should probably get one warning or directly kicked out for those actions. Sometimes it's obvious you don't belong somewhere. Every guild/org has laws/oaths/rules and I think people don't really let them sink into their RP aspirations.

    The process would probably be the same for dealing with conflict, guild leadership would have a talk with the person, let them know that they should really try to get in line with the others. Or not. How are people who roleplay differently (Not directly opposite) from a guild's roleplay any different than members who do absolutely nothing, are completely silent, and contribute nothing to the organization?

    If someone wants to roleplay slightly off-center from a guild's theme, but not directly opposed to it, and it passes the 'Not very destructive' test, I don't see why guild leadership needs to step in at all. To bring up the Carnifex, though, they're structured very much like the military, and not listening to orders is perfect grounds for punishment or discharge. I always imagine the Carnifex like every military bootcamp movie scene where they're constantly being verbally and physically beat on by leadership to toughen them up or break them entirely so they quit. I don't which other guild has such obvious consistent roleplay reasons for being strict about roleplay to remain in the guild.

    tl;dr: RP is tricky. Leadership should try to include diverse voices if it doesn't harm the guild. If you're afraid your RP will get you kicked out, use that to change or come to a decision to get kicked out.
    Ensis
  • KanivaraKanivara Member Posts: 26 ✭✭✭
    ... what did you think was going to happen for PKing the guild's second in command? O_o Genuine here, what did you think the consequences for doing that twice were going to be?

    Pretty sure any guild would oust you for PKing the leadership, regardless of why you PK'd them. Doubly so if they're military in nature.
    ArdentLin
  • EnsisEnsis Member Posts: 27
    edited August 28
    Haven said:

    You're assuming a lot @Ensis.
    ...
    I cannot speak for the others but that's what I disagree with. There are many reasons and situations that call for outguilding. Treason (Selling guild secrets, stealing from the guild, killing guild members [especially leadership], actively going against guild goals and ideals, etc.) tends to be the common reason that outguildings occur. Although not as often cited and usually open to a wide berth of interpretation and thus typically more open to disputes, organizational health is another valid reason for outguilding someone. The list can go on really.

    Treason. You gave examples. I can argue the examples.
    • Selling guild secrets. Unless it's regarding an event happening right now, or OrgReq/divine/future stuff, I'm not impressed. If it is, admin will probably act before the guild will. Granted, you can probably cover the most egregious violations under...
    • Stealing from the guild. Internal theft is an acceptable reason. I actually should have made an exception for it. I would temper this with what's actually being stolen, but in cases where it's a guild problem you're probably clear to do it. External theft, one of your members stealing other people's stuff, will probably get handled before the guild gets to touch it. I can't tell who allows or encourages it anymore.
    • Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
    • Actively going against guild goals and ideals. This is dependent on the guild, and I'd rather discuss individual issues then make a blanket statement. There's few actions a player can take that so violate 'ideals' enough to actively harm the rest of the guild. What Elene is joking about is w/e to me. Pregnant vampires and undead are worse. Letting your ents get killed/harvested for... w/e, is much worse. Even if you let these deviants go from the guild, and get someone from the city to kick them too, they retain class and continue debasing precious lore for as long as they're interested in pursuing the character. I'd rather have the deviants in house so they can be more easily monitored and possibly guided away from being deviant. If the fan starts to stink even after, you'll probably see the person quit far before you ask them to leave.
    Treason, as applied, is vague to me. I don't like making the exception for it alone. I'm going to instead provide a few more items that don't invite vagueness and abuse: vandalism (property, HELP scrolls, and clans); actively helping an enemy raid against the guild, its city, or its allies declared in a treaty; actively reporting GT, GWHO, or guild/clan news posts to outside individuals (alt abuse in general); and other stuff that'll probably end up as an ISSUE to get cleaned up. Which was my stipulation anyway.

    If you're also upset with the idea that a permanent ban is wrong Haven, I can't argue a feeling at length. Forgiveness should be possible, because shrubbing and lack of interest should be the only reasons not to play the game. Karhast has it.

    Organizational health was mentioned. Are you referring the prior points as damaging overall the harmony of the org, or that this is some separate crime? As the former, I don't get it. As the later, this sounds like, 'People don't agree with ME and don't PK with ME and won't do quests and instances with ME and won't vote for ME and won't donate to ME so I'm going to kick everyone that threatens my milestones and shops and whatever else I think is important including the org I currently control.'

    I am probably assuming a lot. What in particular am I assuming that's so wrong to you?
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  • AyastiaAyastia Member Posts: 43 ✭✭
    edited August 28
    You know, I remember my first character got outright booted from the Luminaries for even talking to family who was undead. And you wanna complain because... you can't have a relationship with the enemy and the guild be ok with it? Good gods this is a joke, right?
    XavinLinArdent
  • EnsisEnsis Member Posts: 27
    edited August 28
    Satomi said:

    Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your text, but that is the kind of dismissive take I got from this, and this entire thread is about how Guild Laws and the Guild's general code of conduct can affect punishments and decision making regarding said punishments.

    RP environment - outguilding

    To me, the entire thread is about lifting your foot off the outguild pedal so characters can have the freedom RP. It's in the thread title. I tried to tl;dr with a joke for the 'actual' subject of the thread, but that didn't find an audience.

    I'm also stupid. I admit it. I'm bad with people. It's why I'm not being vague when I address the forum. I have been affected by the outguild button. I'm being blunt and honest with where my head is, because it will probably be the only way I answer my questions.
    Satomi said:

    This is kind of a silly take.

    I might be dismissive of the importance of murder. I agree. The alternative is less tolerable and fun though, so... w/e. This probably tilts depending on vampire/undead or living. My point still is, I prefer leniency for something as trivial as a death.
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