RP environment - outguilding

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  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    Iadra said:

    The thread has the feel of trying to point to a specific situation without mentioning names.

    Which is making people make sweeping statements that don't seem to apply to the normal course of affairs outside of this one specific situation.

    It's absolutely just vaguebooking, which is the only entertainment we seem capable of in this game anymore
    Sryaen
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    ERP with who you wanna ERP with, but if it's someone on the naughty list, be prepared for consequences. Honestly, in my experience, getting caught is half the fun of chasing trouble anyway.

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  • edited August 2020
    None of this is black and white anyway. There are some individuals/guilds/cities that are more tolerant of the other side. There are some individuals/guilds/cities that are more tolerated by the other side.

    Vaguely knowing the situation this thread is alluding to, we're talking about what is probably one of, it not, the least tolerant guilds on the scale by design. And even so, it was a very specific line that was crossed, and a choice made by the individual to conform rather than continue crossing that specific line and bringing more trouble (not even outguilding, afaik).

    I think this is RP working as intended.
    PhoeneciaTetchtaArdentXavinEladrianKaiara
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    One of the main issues I was speaking of in my posts, and have tried to repeatedly highlight, was the OOC fear of being outguilded without being able to clear things up. For example, say that someone misinterprets interaction, or makes assumptions and accusations based on them, which then ends up with someone being thrown out without RP. It has happened in the past.

    Even if some of this is connected to something very recent (which people have been alluding to in their posts), it is not the isolated incidence they seem to believe it is. I know of several people who have had this feeling, and felt like they've had to tiptoe around certain people because of it.

    Once again, I am glad to see that there are good examples of leaders who don't use this method, but it remains a problem that people need to be aware of; there are players out there who fear this might happen to them. If the community can't see that this is a problem, I don't know what else to say. All I can really ask is to make sure there's always an open line of communication, and that people around them know that it's alright to speak up about it.



  • I got outguilded without RP or even a message as to why - all because of a twisted interpretation of a guild law. I had to follow up and initiate the resulting conflict. It happens. Unless the administration is willing to sit down and come to a consensus with the input of players to codify concrete rules regarding the use of outguilding, it falls to player policing. And, sadly, while I do think there is a greater discussion to be had regarding how outguilding has been used/should be used, I think the majority consensus will probably fall on "as long as the offender has class, outguilding can be done for (nearly) any RP reason."
    Aeryx
  • edited August 2020
    I'd put grass in quotes, but then I'd try figuring out how to make the thing the default word-wrap and still look good. Which would make me figure out what the game defaults for word-wrap, because I immediately set that to 0.

    If this is what the conversation distills into, there will always be something you want from the other half of the game, and you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Consequences give meaning to what you do, and barriers give challenge to the game, that's a game. Embrace the game.

    I have actual opinions on the outguild button though. As explained in HELP 8.7:
    While a Guildmaster may, at his or her option, choose to expel a guildmember, the Gods prefer that some leniency is given, especially for young members.

    Kicking someone from a guild should happen never. If it does happen, the event should be well documented with a clear reason why it happened and what would be needed to allow said exile back into the guild. There is never a reason to permanently ban anyone, and no exiling should last longer than a real life year. Enemy status should not be maintained for longer than a year, though I'm completely cool with requiring that the exile ask to have enemy status actually lifted.

    What situations demand a boot? If you can ISSUE the person, and you think you will win, you can probably go ahead with the boot. There are 0 other reasons to destroy someone's rank, put into question their works, destroy their ability to vote, remove their sanction privileges, and remove access to stuff within a guildhall for less. The room for abuse is huge.
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  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Iazamat said:

    I think the majority consensus will probably fall on "as long as the offender has class, outguilding can be done for (nearly) any RP reason."

    Honestly even knowing most of that story along with a few other arguably bad outguilding stories, I'd say that the freedom allowed by having player-run orgs is 100% worth the few instances of failure, especially since admin have shown a willingness to step in if things get too out of hand (Sentinels I think in the past, and more recently the Archivists).

    I agree that there's probably a conversation to be had regarding despotism and what to do about it (if anything), but overall that seems like a different conversation than this one was originally.

    HavenIazamatEladrianRijettaKarhast
  • I mean it all sounds to me that you think your personal fun is more important than the guild laws that are clearly on display for anyone to read, not just members. As others said, have your rp but be ready for consequences. And yes, those consequences can be outguilding, or even being thrown from a city. If not, why even have the laws?
    XavinKanivaraEladrian
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    The larger question is an interesting topic to me but I'm unsure if it's even worth discussing in this context because it ultimately begs the question "what is 'good' roleplay". In my opinion, that question will always be too subjective to narrow into any kind of consensus in a game like this where most of the roleplay elements of the game are purposefully open-ended and or obscure.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
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  • Haven said:

    The larger question is an interesting topic to me but I'm unsure if it's even worth discussing in this context because it ultimately begs the question "what is 'good' roleplay". In my opinion, that question will always be too subjective to narrow into any kind of consensus in a game like this where most of the roleplay elements of the game are purposefully open-ended and or obscure.

    As long as it makes sense in character and is at least partially organic it would be good roleplay, at least in my opinion. Orchestrated scenes are a thing that happen, it's just the way it is. As long as something makes sense for a character to do I don't think it's a problem - but consequences, etc.

  • Since I think it's relevant, I personally found it majestic how Indorani managed to outguild themselves through their RP and its consequence.

    Which I think is a great thing to have. If the game is too heavily regulated by the admins to be a storytelling experience, rather than being one in which where you can feel you are making a difference that's taking away from the potential of RP experience for me.

    So yes, consequences are great. I hope those people feel like they left their mark on the game and their decisions mattered. Because honestly, what more can you ask for from a fantasy world?
    AlystrineKanivaraTetchtaEladrianKarhastBenedicto
  • mother of god
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  • And because my opinion is so disgusting, I'd still rather have an admin explanation where the line should be. I've been personally affected by the getting kicked from the Carnifex (hi, Kasimir), and want to know if my expectations are wrong. I've been told to ISSUE regarding said outguilding, but why? I don't know if I have a leg to stand on without ground beneath my feet.

    The outguild button has meaningful mechanical use that can easily be abused, and you're either disagreeing with the importance of the values I'm stating (GR, plagiarism/disrespecting volunteer time, influencing elections and referendums, sanction privs, guildhall), or disregarding them because whatever vision of your guild you're defending is too important to give people every opportunity to play the game and ingratiate themselves into eventual leadership responsibility. Or, you're being lazy, a prick, an elitist, or a combination of these things. Punish your errant guild members in other ways. I'm missing any posts here that describe another reason it's okay to outguild, regardless of my take where I expect book-keeping and due process.

    Ultimately, if people don't want me around, I don't want to be around. This is a social game and people don't want to social, I'm not going argue with them. Half my reservations about engagement are the stated fear that I can arbitrarily (ego, preference, w/e) have all that engagement wasted by not even the guild master's privs. And even if I somehow win an issue and get back into the guild, why stay? The same people that wanted me out still want me out, and will eventually kick me again for something else just as arbitrary. It's a huge loss-loss unless you're ruining the clique-in-charge's day.
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  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Ensis said:

    I've been personally affected by the getting kicked from the Carnifex (hi, Kasimir), and want to know if my expectations are wrong. I've been told to ISSUE regarding said outguilding, but why? I don't know if I have a leg to stand on without ground beneath my feet.

    Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lol


    IazamatRijettaAyastia
  • Tetchta said:

    Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lol

    I didn't see the situation like that, no. I disagree 100%. You, not part of the event, want to argue for those that were? Besides that it's not my point that I'm making?
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  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited August 2020
    Ensis said:

    Tetchta said:

    Yo didn't Kasimir get outguilded for attacking senior guild leadership? Pretty sure that's, like, a super legit reason to outguild someone lol

    I didn't see the situation like that, no. I disagree 100%. You, not part of the event, want to argue for those that were? Besides that it's not my point that I'm making?
    Every young Carnifex is familiar with The Tragedy of Darth Kasimir the Wise. It's taught to us during the Reaper stage.

    edit: Pre-emptively saying I deserve all the off-topic ratings I get.

    EnsisArdentDrystin
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere Important
    Just hypothetically, if a member of a guild attacked guild leadership without any cause, died as a result, then came back and tried again with minimal rp in between

    I'd consider that valid grounds for an outguilding.
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  • Each case should be looked at differently. If someone goes against the RP of a guild I think a few things should be considered before threats/outguilding happens. Consider how what they're doing is destructive towards the guild, their guildmates, the city, the reputation of the guild, and the overall image. If it's not actively causing membership to drop or building conflicts between organizations, it might be good for the guild to have a different voice from time-to-time.

    A complete and outright counter to the RP is a different case. A templar who murders children and sleeps with vampires should probably get one warning or directly kicked out for those actions. Sometimes it's obvious you don't belong somewhere. Every guild/org has laws/oaths/rules and I think people don't really let them sink into their RP aspirations.

    The process would probably be the same for dealing with conflict, guild leadership would have a talk with the person, let them know that they should really try to get in line with the others. Or not. How are people who roleplay differently (Not directly opposite) from a guild's roleplay any different than members who do absolutely nothing, are completely silent, and contribute nothing to the organization?

    If someone wants to roleplay slightly off-center from a guild's theme, but not directly opposed to it, and it passes the 'Not very destructive' test, I don't see why guild leadership needs to step in at all. To bring up the Carnifex, though, they're structured very much like the military, and not listening to orders is perfect grounds for punishment or discharge. I always imagine the Carnifex like every military bootcamp movie scene where they're constantly being verbally and physically beat on by leadership to toughen them up or break them entirely so they quit. I don't which other guild has such obvious consistent roleplay reasons for being strict about roleplay to remain in the guild.

    tl;dr: RP is tricky. Leadership should try to include diverse voices if it doesn't harm the guild. If you're afraid your RP will get you kicked out, use that to change or come to a decision to get kicked out.
    Ensis
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    You're assuming a lot @Ensis.
    Ensis said:

    ...

    If this is what the conversation distills into, there will always be something you want from the other half of the game, and you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
    ...

    I have actual opinions on the outguild button though. As explained in HELP 8.7:
    While a Guildmaster may, at his or her option, choose to expel a guildmember, the Gods prefer that some leniency is given, especially for young members.

    Kicking someone from a guild should happen never. [......] There is never a reason to permanently ban anyone, and no exiling should last longer than a real life year. Enemy status should not be maintained for longer than a year, though I'm completely cool with requiring that the exile ask to have enemy status actually lifted.

    What situations demand a boot? If you can ISSUE the person, and you think you will win, you can probably go ahead with the boot. There are 0 other reasons to destroy someone's rank, put into question their works, destroy their ability to vote, remove their sanction privileges, and remove access to stuff within a guildhall for less. The room for abuse is huge.

    I cannot speak for the others but that's what I disagree with. There are many reasons and situations that call for outguilding. Treason (Selling guild secrets, stealing from the guild, killing guild members [especially leadership], actively going against guild goals and ideals, etc.) tends to be the common reason that outguildings occur. Although not as often cited and usually open to a wide berth of interpretation and thus typically more open to disputes , organizational health is another valid reason for outguilding someone. The list can go on really.
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  • was the OOC fear of

    people who have had this feeling

    felt like they've had to

    there are players out there who fear


    Sometimes people's feelings are just dumb, man. There's people who feel like all kinds of things, and catering to them all isn't going to help a soul. If you disagree with me, let it be known that I feel like disagreeing with me is equal to an acute attempt on my life, so please respect this feeling by not doing so.
    HavenTetchtaArdentSaritaRijettaSryaen
  • ... what did you think was going to happen for PKing the guild's second in command? O_o Genuine here, what did you think the consequences for doing that twice were going to be?

    Pretty sure any guild would oust you for PKing the leadership, regardless of why you PK'd them. Doubly so if they're military in nature.
    ArdentLin
  • Sometimes I get the impression that I'm the only old school D&D player here who remembers what it's like to pour hours, and sometimes years into a character only to experience perma death due to actions I took.

    Were a bit spoiled in aetolia because nearly all "consequences" here can be reversed over time. You have to fuck up really bad multiple times to not get back into a guild or city eventually. I've seen someone literally piss off every city on the entire mud and still the admin said they had to be allowed a path back in.

    Just get over it, go grab yourself a soy beverage, listen to some emo 90s punk music and contemplate what you really want for your character's life. Then come back and go in that direction because really, no one is stopping you other than yourself. 
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  • edited August 2020
    Haven said:

    You're assuming a lot @Ensis.
    ...
    I cannot speak for the others but that's what I disagree with. There are many reasons and situations that call for outguilding. Treason (Selling guild secrets, stealing from the guild, killing guild members [especially leadership], actively going against guild goals and ideals, etc.) tends to be the common reason that outguildings occur. Although not as often cited and usually open to a wide berth of interpretation and thus typically more open to disputes, organizational health is another valid reason for outguilding someone. The list can go on really.

    Treason. You gave examples. I can argue the examples.
    • Selling guild secrets. Unless it's regarding an event happening right now, or OrgReq/divine/future stuff, I'm not impressed. If it is, admin will probably act before the guild will. Granted, you can probably cover the most egregious violations under...
    • Stealing from the guild. Internal theft is an acceptable reason. I actually should have made an exception for it. I would temper this with what's actually being stolen, but in cases where it's a guild problem you're probably clear to do it. External theft, one of your members stealing other people's stuff, will probably get handled before the guild gets to touch it. I can't tell who allows or encourages it anymore.
    • Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
    • Actively going against guild goals and ideals. This is dependent on the guild, and I'd rather discuss individual issues then make a blanket statement. There's few actions a player can take that so violate 'ideals' enough to actively harm the rest of the guild. What Elene is joking about is w/e to me. Pregnant vampires and undead are worse. Letting your ents get killed/harvested for... w/e, is much worse. Even if you let these deviants go from the guild, and get someone from the city to kick them too, they retain class and continue debasing precious lore for as long as they're interested in pursuing the character. I'd rather have the deviants in house so they can be more easily monitored and possibly guided away from being deviant. If the fan starts to stink even after, you'll probably see the person quit far before you ask them to leave.
    Treason, as applied, is vague to me. I don't like making the exception for it alone. I'm going to instead provide a few more items that don't invite vagueness and abuse: vandalism (property, HELP scrolls, and clans); actively helping an enemy raid against the guild, its city, or its allies declared in a treaty; actively reporting GT, GWHO, or guild/clan news posts to outside individuals (alt abuse in general); and other stuff that'll probably end up as an ISSUE to get cleaned up. Which was my stipulation anyway.

    If you're also upset with the idea that a permanent ban is wrong Haven, I can't argue a feeling at length. Forgiveness should be possible, because shrubbing and lack of interest should be the only reasons not to play the game. Karhast has it.

    Organizational health was mentioned. Are you referring the prior points as damaging overall the harmony of the org, or that this is some separate crime? As the former, I don't get it. As the later, this sounds like, 'People don't agree with ME and don't PK with ME and won't do quests and instances with ME and won't vote for ME and won't donate to ME so I'm going to kick everyone that threatens my milestones and shops and whatever else I think is important including the org I currently control.'

    I am probably assuming a lot. What in particular am I assuming that's so wrong to you?
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  • Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
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  • edited August 2020
    You know, I remember my first character got outright booted from the Luminaries for even talking to family who was undead. And you wanna complain because... you can't have a relationship with the enemy and the guild be ok with it? Good gods this is a joke, right?
    XavinLinArdent
  • edited August 2020
    Just going to throw this out there, because I can't believe this has devolved into what it has. This is also keeping in mind that I am divorced from the entire issue beyond second/third hand accounts so I am not really speaking to that specifically.
    Ensis said:


    Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
    This is kind of a silly take. Help PK is an outline bestowed upon us by the Administration. A bare minimum guideline for conduct. Much like how the Federal Government in the U.S.A. may outline a standard, and the states can expand upon that standard as long as they don't directly go against it, the Guilds of Sapience are capable of expanding on what is considered unacceptable PK conduct within the Guild.

    Frankly, most of the rules fit this interpretation, and the Guild Leadership during that period of time use it as they will.

    Just.. don't use the administration's guidelines as more than just basic MUD decency (that can be punishable) and pull a "This Guild won't allow me to kill whoever I want within it, but I'm not breaking the Help PK Guidelines so their laws/rules regarding this are oppressive and dumb."

    Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your text, but that is the kind of dismissive take I got from this, and this entire thread is about how Guild Laws and the Guild's general code of conduct can affect punishments and decision making regarding said punishments.

    Edit: Made it less directly confrontational with a word change. Silly me.

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  • edited August 2020
    Satomi said:

    Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your text, but that is the kind of dismissive take I got from this, and this entire thread is about how Guild Laws and the Guild's general code of conduct can affect punishments and decision making regarding said punishments.

    RP environment - outguilding

    To me, the entire thread is about lifting your foot off the outguild pedal so characters can have the freedom RP. It's in the thread title. I tried to tl;dr with a joke for the 'actual' subject of the thread, but that didn't find an audience.

    I'm also stupid. I admit it. I'm bad with people. It's why I'm not being vague when I address the forum. I have been affected by the outguild button. I'm being blunt and honest with where my head is, because it will probably be the only way I answer my questions.
    Satomi said:

    This is kind of a silly take.

    I might be dismissive of the importance of murder. I agree. The alternative is less tolerable and fun though, so... w/e. This probably tilts depending on vampire/undead or living. My point still is, I prefer leniency for something as trivial as a death.
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  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    You must be from Achaea
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