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Re: Customer Review #2 - Follow-up to Abrupt Closing of Topic - Limiting Opportunity to Respond
Regardless if -you- were done or not @JhinYou're commenting so maybe you should Frozen interaction on this post then.
The rest of the playerbase, based on the responses.
The Administration of the game
Their boss who you emailed
...and pretty much everyone else was.
So in the words of Elsa from the hit movie Frozen, "Let it go, let it go."
Jhin
0
Re: Customer Review #2 - Follow-up to Abrupt Closing of Topic - Limiting Opportunity to Respond
I'm not sure this is a productive use of your time, my dude.Honestly, I don't care about the roast and the only reason I decided to post this was to end it. After @Ictinus response was made I wasn't done. He closed the post prematurely.
While I understand that you feel as if your time and attention is difficult to refund without a compromise that steps over the line, you've also got to understand the position that Ictinus is in as the new Producer. He stepped inside a burning room in a manner vaguely reminiscent of a famous scene from Community. There were fires to put out everywhere. Your environmental token is one such fire. Ictinus even went on record saying that the auction item in question was poorly explained - I'd go further and say that the token is a monument to Tiur's incompetence/lack of forethought.
Unfortunately, while it isn't 'your fault' that IRE kept an incompetent lackwit on as Producer for so long, you need to keep in mind what goes into the change of management. Yes, Tiur screwed the pooch. However, Ictinus has to set a precedent and keep to it - he offered a full currency refund, which is way more than IRE usually springs for in most other situations. If he gives you better than what you paid, what sort of precedent does that set to every other customer who had a bone to pick with Tiur's inability to do his job?
It has to stop somewhere. I'm sorry you got burnt so badly. However, were I in your shoes, I'd take the full currency refund before I got roasted any further.
I don't even care about the refund for the environment token at this point in time because there's a new issue. The producer of Aetolia lied. I never said I would be "willing" to trade in my environment token "if" Mazzion lost his blue name.
As one of my friends pointed on to me via discord he put it like this.
You did not state formally you wanted to redeem the token for that.
You simply were pointing out the false equivalencies they make regarding fairness.
Which in my original post I expressed that I think its nice when people get different things because "fair" is not a realistic goal. Nothing will ever be fair. The only thing unfair about all of this is Iron Realms releasing an item, me buying it, and them going back on what they said it would do and what it is for.
This post is not about them doing right by their customer its about @Ictinus using one sentence that I wrote and placing it out of context. How would someone else losing something justify anything for myself? So him making that statement was also an insult to my character and sure it doesnt matter IRL because the Aetolian community via forums loves to be internet trolls and feed into drama. But at the end of the day I'm going to say something if someone lies about me.
If he wants to delete this post or if he doesn't want to respond then fine. But at the end of the day I'm going to let my voice be heard. He posted one sentence, placed it out of context and closed the forum post to try and silence me? That's petty, rude, and childish. If you truly stand by your own statement @Ictinus then post the entire log.
Also @Lim I could say they altered it and all that. And whether you believe me or not doesn't matter. If you think I'm upset for no reason or trying to create problems for the admin etc. Then that's okay. I don't really mind. But at the end of the day whoever has access to the logs @Keroc @Razmael @Ictinus take a look and see if I made the request as @Ictinus wrote:
He said:
Jhin - Hey Ictinus, I'm willing to refund my environment token if mazzion loses his blue name.
The truth:
Jhin - Your idea on fairness isn't consistent so I don't find that to be a reasonable or realistic rejection point to Iron Realms not following through with the item they sold me. For instance: Mazzion's blue name, happened before you were here, and yes it isn't "fair" that others cant have a blue name. But I never created an ultimatum not requested for Mazzion to get his blue name removed. I was pointed out the false equivalences that exist regarding his idea of fairness.
And tbh I know most of you have never heard me speak IRL but its easy for @Ictinus to close the post down after he pasted a sentence and lied about what I was requesting of him. In conversation it wouldn't have ever gotten this far - I would have shut that down immediately. ESPECIALLY, because he made his response European time so all of the Aetolian Internet Trolls proceeded to take a one sided story, make conclusions then progress this idea @Ictinus interjected while I was sleep.
I've known @Mazzion for a long time, look at Jhin's BLOODLINE.
Zras is Jhin's father. So the respect that I have for Mazz goes back to when I first started playing this game. So that's why I have a lot to say about this and it rests with me.
So all of this is extremely upsetting that I'm not backed by the Aetolian community when I have been around for 17 years and @Ictinus is a brand new producer who steps through the door and makes an outlandish claim against me after who was wronged in this situation. Me. No one else. I hope this doesn't happen to you.
And PLUS, if this is how Iron Realms manages its customer service - don't be surprised if you log into your character one day and Iron Realms says abruptly - sorry guys we're shutting down. On to new ventures. At the end of the day this situation showed me the type of people who manage this company and its saddening really.
That's all I have to say and whoever has an objective point of view thank you for reading.
P.S.
@Keroc and @Razmael
I know you two haven't commented and you're the only other admin I know of in Aetolia. I urge you to look at the log and confirm if I said:
I am willing to refund my environment token IF Mazzion loses his blue name.
If you're unable to confirm that through the logs then are you okay with @Ictinus lying about customers on forums?
Jhin
0
Customer Review #2 - Follow-up to Abrupt Closing of Topic - Limiting Opportunity to Respond
@Ictinus
This has been on my mind over the past few days and instead of allowing you to misrepresent me online. I'm going to say this.
You posted one tell that I wrote you. For transparency post the entire conversation that we had, including that tell.
If you decide to not respond and/or close this post then that is revealing in itself.
Because if you post our entire conversation.... unfortunately, it will make you look bad and it will reveal the truth.
But if you stand by your position - provide the entire conversation for context.
Thank you.
@Razmael @Keroc
This has been on my mind over the past few days and instead of allowing you to misrepresent me online. I'm going to say this.
You posted one tell that I wrote you. For transparency post the entire conversation that we had, including that tell.
If you decide to not respond and/or close this post then that is revealing in itself.
Because if you post our entire conversation.... unfortunately, it will make you look bad and it will reveal the truth.
But if you stand by your position - provide the entire conversation for context.
Thank you.
@Razmael @Keroc
Jhin
10
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
It makes sense for them to know it, it also makes sense for them to know just enough to recite the verses.Tetchta said:I'm actually curious: does the lore of EC support just knowing Earthen? Teradrim don't get it as a default, either; it's a reward for getting Earthenform in Terramancy, which in my mind ties it specifically to getting Earthenform (aka a racial trait). Not that I'm against them getting it out of convenience, but it'd probably need a justification if there isn't one already.
I’m actually torn on Earthen language for Callers now on its own.
That said, I think anointing and battlehymn should be combined into an earthenform-esque defense for Callers with the same options as anoint and hymn rolled in.
Edit: I would include earthen language with that ‘earthenform’, tbc
Almol
2
Customer Review
Hey Everyone,
I wanted to transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience, particularly because protecting fairness in the Aetolian community was reference. As a 17 year customer of Iron Realms (specifically Aetolia) this is customer review of my experience and account so the Aetolian community can set proper expectations for the future.
Big changes were made in Aetolia as of recent with the removal of Producer Tiur and so far his replacement Ictinus has done an outstanding job and put his best foot forward in curating recent events.
Separate from the event category I want to be transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience and this account will be valuable for you in setting expectations moving forward.
First (1) I'm going to relay the facts of what happened and second (2) I'm going to share my opinion of the decision.
Special Room Environment
We'll set up rooms in your house with a special environment. The list available via BUILDING
ENVIRONMENTS is something like 12% of the actual ones. If nothing matches your idea, we'll make another.
There are numerous people throughout the history of Aetolia who have received special things that others haven't. In all fairness I believe it's okay for everyone to receive special things - we are not all the same and the experience we all receive can be different. For instance Mazzion having a blue name on QW and becoming an Ankyrean before level 200 is something that he received and I believe the same type of "special" treatment that he's able to receive should be awarded to all Aetolians - not just a select few. There's other aetolians that fit into this category, but his are just obvious.
Aetolia is already a small community and it costs Aetolia a lot more to lose consistent revenue on a 17 year customer than simply changing an environment token into a relic piece token. What I've suggested allows me not to be able to use an item that Iron Realms offered me and convert it into something that costs Aetolia nothing. Maybe 45 seconds typing on a keyboard. But instead opts to have an unhappy loyal customer.
That's pretty harsh to treat a paying customer of 17 years - with such a hard no and non-negotiating type of position. I'm not asking for a lot - but fair treatment. I didn't hire Tiur and I didn't entrust Tiur to run Aetolia, but I involved myself within the game and financially supported it. So there should be some leniency when it comes to this decision.
In my opinion I don't think it's good business, but it's out of my control.
Thank you.
P.S.
This is what HELP CASTLES said before I pointed it out via email.
"No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done,
but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, and will not be cheap."
This section has been changed to after my email:
In terms of what your castle looks like, that is essentially up to you, but it must be, at best,
minimally magical. No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done, but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, will not be cheap, and must still remain
appropriate to Aetolia's setting, lore, and environment.
Special requests are always at the Producer's discretion, and if something is deemed to be beyond the scope of appropriate housing, it will likely not be approved.
I wanted to transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience, particularly because protecting fairness in the Aetolian community was reference. As a 17 year customer of Iron Realms (specifically Aetolia) this is customer review of my experience and account so the Aetolian community can set proper expectations for the future.
Big changes were made in Aetolia as of recent with the removal of Producer Tiur and so far his replacement Ictinus has done an outstanding job and put his best foot forward in curating recent events.
Separate from the event category I want to be transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience and this account will be valuable for you in setting expectations moving forward.
First (1) I'm going to relay the facts of what happened and second (2) I'm going to share my opinion of the decision.
- Tiur produced the last auction and posted details of each item in the announce posts.
- These items were bid on by the Aetolian community with the trust and expectation that they will do what Iron Realms said they would do.
- A producer change occurred and Ictinus replaced Tiur as producer of Aetolia.
- The details of the Environment Token was one of the items listed in Announce 3202
Special Room Environment
We'll set up rooms in your house with a special environment. The list available via BUILDING
ENVIRONMENTS is something like 12% of the actual ones. If nothing matches your idea, we'll make another.
- I attempted to redeem my environment token in order to create an airship observatory. The talisman currently recognizes airship as an available aetolian environment. Also it is referenced in Aetolian history through HELP DREIKATHI.
- I spoke with Ictinus and he said that the redemption of this item for an airship is no longer the direction that he wishes to take Aetolia and offered a full gold refund for my auction purchase.
- I mentioned that winning an auction item requires more investment than the value of gold that I spent. (I.E. Credit purchases, promo purchases, in-game hours selling goods, and in-game time and effort spent positioning myself to win something in the auction.
- Alternatively, I suggested that we change the environment token into a special artifact of my choosing or a relic piece token that was also offered in the same auction.
- The answer was no. And the most I can get for Iron Realms selling me something that I am not able to use with how they intended is even gold.
There are numerous people throughout the history of Aetolia who have received special things that others haven't. In all fairness I believe it's okay for everyone to receive special things - we are not all the same and the experience we all receive can be different. For instance Mazzion having a blue name on QW and becoming an Ankyrean before level 200 is something that he received and I believe the same type of "special" treatment that he's able to receive should be awarded to all Aetolians - not just a select few. There's other aetolians that fit into this category, but his are just obvious.
Aetolia is already a small community and it costs Aetolia a lot more to lose consistent revenue on a 17 year customer than simply changing an environment token into a relic piece token. What I've suggested allows me not to be able to use an item that Iron Realms offered me and convert it into something that costs Aetolia nothing. Maybe 45 seconds typing on a keyboard. But instead opts to have an unhappy loyal customer.
That's pretty harsh to treat a paying customer of 17 years - with such a hard no and non-negotiating type of position. I'm not asking for a lot - but fair treatment. I didn't hire Tiur and I didn't entrust Tiur to run Aetolia, but I involved myself within the game and financially supported it. So there should be some leniency when it comes to this decision.
In my opinion I don't think it's good business, but it's out of my control.
Thank you.
P.S.
This is what HELP CASTLES said before I pointed it out via email.
"No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done,
but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, and will not be cheap."
This section has been changed to after my email:
In terms of what your castle looks like, that is essentially up to you, but it must be, at best,
minimally magical. No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done, but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, will not be cheap, and must still remain
appropriate to Aetolia's setting, lore, and environment.
Special requests are always at the Producer's discretion, and if something is deemed to be beyond the scope of appropriate housing, it will likely not be approved.
Jhin
6
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
It's been discussed before and more or less rejected, but I think weapon usability for class skills should be broken wide open to allow use of any weapons that meet the requirements necessary for a skill to function for a given class.
There's been this argument that weapons play a major role with class identity, which I see to a degree. Bardiches/Halberds and Warhammers are just straight up Iconic for Carnifex, for example. But I honestly think they're given too much weight by the current system and creative lead.
For one, you'll always have your base class proficiency, which will likely encourage more folk to use the weapons that are meant to be pivotal to class design. There's gonna always be folk who can't bear to sink 100 lessons into a new proficiency (understandably) or buy the SUPER expensive bracers of proficiency. But secondarily, I really think the skills themselves (plus guild culture) do a lot more to inform class identity. Weapon use, meanwhile, is more of a way to express your character and give them some creative identity. In all honesty, the reason I was most excited for Templar to come across was because I finally would be able to put a big honkin' sword in Tet's hands and have it be actually useful. I don't think anything is lost by letting Syssin use daggers (while we're here, can we pretty please have daggers be slash/jabbable?) or letting a Carnifex swing around a big ol Scythe, or letting a Teradrim use a (insert weapon here).
Edit: I'm still in favor of limiting weapon proficiency use by class (dstabing with a longsword or axe is dumb af), but I definitely think the pool should be widened a lot, especially for knight classes.
There's been this argument that weapons play a major role with class identity, which I see to a degree. Bardiches/Halberds and Warhammers are just straight up Iconic for Carnifex, for example. But I honestly think they're given too much weight by the current system and creative lead.
For one, you'll always have your base class proficiency, which will likely encourage more folk to use the weapons that are meant to be pivotal to class design. There's gonna always be folk who can't bear to sink 100 lessons into a new proficiency (understandably) or buy the SUPER expensive bracers of proficiency. But secondarily, I really think the skills themselves (plus guild culture) do a lot more to inform class identity. Weapon use, meanwhile, is more of a way to express your character and give them some creative identity. In all honesty, the reason I was most excited for Templar to come across was because I finally would be able to put a big honkin' sword in Tet's hands and have it be actually useful. I don't think anything is lost by letting Syssin use daggers (while we're here, can we pretty please have daggers be slash/jabbable?) or letting a Carnifex swing around a big ol Scythe, or letting a Teradrim use a (insert weapon here).
Edit: I'm still in favor of limiting weapon proficiency use by class (dstabing with a longsword or axe is dumb af), but I definitely think the pool should be widened a lot, especially for knight classes.
Tetchta
4
Re: Griefing and bullying. It's not okay OOC but it is okay IC? (Wall of text warning)
I keep trying to come up with a thing to say to this but every time I start I just get extremely angry, but also overwhelmed. Do I try to unpack "bullying the people with leadership positions when they signed on to be leaders and bear the responsibilities of that role" first, or do I go for the implication that there's some sort of metagaming plot to ruin everyone's and/or a specific someone's play experience (when, by the way, Carnifex players are often the ones telling people to stop metagaming in OOC mediums)? Or do I take a crack at the suggestion that players are obligated to explain their characters' motivations out of character on demand whenever their actions inconvenience another person? Or do I roll the dice on trying to dissect what precisely is even "bullying" here?
Because I'm guessing, if this is referencing the past couple weeks of IC stuff (which has been a hoot), a lot of the "bullying" has been characters living in the world asking whether they should be concerned about existential threats that directly impact them, as well as asking for accountability. I have no idea what consequences your character is eating, if any, in game, but this really reeks of "my character had a consequence for an action and I can't take it." It also reads as a bad faith attempt to bait pretty much every Carnifex player into being an aggro jerkwad so you can go "see what I mean?" when pretty much anybody who is slapped with a massive label and unfounded accusations would be understandably angry and upset at the suggestion.
If you can't take the heat of leadership and the responsibilties that entails, you can step down. I've done it a bunch of times in game when I didn't want to keep doing the job. If you are really some person who wants to do nothing but craft and have slice of life RP, that's something you can do! In a guild, even! You just don't become a public-facing mascot for your organization that has to interact with other people and represent their org and its responsibilities. Like I'm not in a real leadership role in the Carnifex right now and as a result I could mostly just screw off and do whatever I want and almost pretend to not be a Carnifex, if I really really wanted.
This post is so nasty and runs against the very heart of what roleplay is and I'm, honestly, appalled that it was written, let alone posted. Also THIS:
Because I'm guessing, if this is referencing the past couple weeks of IC stuff (which has been a hoot), a lot of the "bullying" has been characters living in the world asking whether they should be concerned about existential threats that directly impact them, as well as asking for accountability. I have no idea what consequences your character is eating, if any, in game, but this really reeks of "my character had a consequence for an action and I can't take it." It also reads as a bad faith attempt to bait pretty much every Carnifex player into being an aggro jerkwad so you can go "see what I mean?" when pretty much anybody who is slapped with a massive label and unfounded accusations would be understandably angry and upset at the suggestion.
If you can't take the heat of leadership and the responsibilties that entails, you can step down. I've done it a bunch of times in game when I didn't want to keep doing the job. If you are really some person who wants to do nothing but craft and have slice of life RP, that's something you can do! In a guild, even! You just don't become a public-facing mascot for your organization that has to interact with other people and represent their org and its responsibilities. Like I'm not in a real leadership role in the Carnifex right now and as a result I could mostly just screw off and do whatever I want and almost pretend to not be a Carnifex, if I really really wanted.
This post is so nasty and runs against the very heart of what roleplay is and I'm, honestly, appalled that it was written, let alone posted. Also THIS:
due to the fact that I experience a straight up sensation of real life fear for the fate of my character should I voice anything in character at this point in time
this is a really unhealthy thing and if that's something you're legitimately experiencing, you really might consider taking a break from the game altogether, because this is not a healthy attitude to bring to...honestly any recreational activity. Tetchta
5
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
We had a little issue making someone Undead earlier, so... solutions? This is just what I sent Icti, but support/interest/further suggestions are welcome :}a few things:mmsg [Ictinus, Ivoln] Hey there! Some of us were discussing this in web since the issue arose, and we weren't sure whether you were aware: becoming Undead is at times a bit... difficult. It requires access to the Pillars of the Earth, which is gated behind the Teradrim guild/sanction or Ivoln's order. This COULD be fine, but it also requires someone with one of those memberships be actively in the Teradrim class or able/willing to switch. As I understand it, these restrictions were put in place in order to improve the RP experience over the old process - and in that regard, it's a great improvement - as well as making it more closely mirror the gating of Duamvi Symbiosis to the Zealot class revamp. Unfortunately, the aforementioned gates can make it somewhat difficult to find someone to perform this important ritual, especially as the number of classes balloons due to mirrors. I propose the following solution(s): widen access to the ability to bestow Undeath available to the new Earthcaller class, as well as Ivoln's order. These are both extremely sensible custodians for the Gift from an RP standpoint, and since Earthcaller is a mirror of Luminary, it would mechanically justify allowing Luminaries to bestow Duamvi Symbiosis - which already makes RP sense considering their ties to the Spirit plane. Furthermore, I recommend allowing Undeath to be bestowed at any of the new Apocalyptia monoliths rather than just the Pillars. This would more closely mirror the accessibility of the Grand Flame. I think this is all the more important to take another look at in light of the renewed importance and interest in Undeath that the Earthcaller class release has brought about! I hope you'll agree!
I sent a message to Ictinus asking for Earthcallers to get the Undeath skill as well days ago, and he replied this was done on purpose and they will NOT be getting that skill
as for allowing Undeath outside of sanction with the Teradrim, I am against this. In an RP setting it is something to be held in high regards within the Sect and access to the Pillars has always been restricted to anyone outside the Guild or not Sanction. Also there are enough of us online throughout the day and evening that you can get a hold of one of us. There are also a few individuals that are sanction that have access to the Pillars outside of the Guild as well. You just have to ask. Or you can send msg to us as well. I have yet to see any requests.
Macavity
0
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
We had a little issue making someone Undead earlier, so... solutions? This is just what I sent Icti, but support/interest/further suggestions are welcome :}
mmsg [Ictinus, Ivoln] Hey there! Some of us were discussing this in web since the issue arose, and we weren't sure whether you were aware: becoming Undead is at times a bit... difficult. It requires access to the Pillars of the Earth, which is gated behind the Teradrim guild/sanction or Ivoln's order. This COULD be fine, but it also requires someone with one of those memberships be actively in the Teradrim class or able/willing to switch. As I understand it, these restrictions were put in place in order to improve the RP experience over the old process - and in that regard, it's a great improvement - as well as making it more closely mirror the gating of Duamvi Symbiosis to the Zealot class revamp. Unfortunately, the aforementioned gates can make it somewhat difficult to find someone to perform this important ritual, especially as the number of classes balloons due to mirrors. I propose the following solution(s): widen access to the ability to bestow Undeath available to the new Earthcaller class, as well as Ivoln's order. These are both extremely sensible custodians for the Gift from an RP standpoint, and since Earthcaller is a mirror of Luminary, it would mechanically justify allowing Luminaries to bestow Duamvi Symbiosis - which already makes RP sense considering their ties to the Spirit plane. Furthermore, I recommend allowing Undeath to be bestowed at any of the new Apocalyptia monoliths rather than just the Pillars. This would more closely mirror the accessibility of the Grand Flame. I think this is all the more important to take another look at in light of the renewed importance and interest in Undeath that the Earthcaller class release has brought about! I hope you'll agree!
Alela
5
Re: Announce post #3242: Oneiromancers!
To say that anyone knew those events were related to the release of the mirror, across the course of several months is, whats the word you like to use? Disingenuous? For all anyone knew, it was Omei related RP about literally anything.Iesid said:I don't mean to sound like I'm beating a dead horse since Ictinus addressed the problem in the Official discord, but the way the event was handled was incredibly off putting to me.The event was going for the better part of a year, all the way back to Omei's return event where she had to select a new shell. Duiran was given plenty of opportunities to interact with that NPC. Some of them did. Some joined the order. Some did not. Some formed a close personal connection with that NPC - and through it, Omei. Everybody present except Caitria falls under at least the first umbrella. Duiran is way larger than 'the order, 2 CLs, and 1 person married to the OH'. Later, the event moved to Enorian. Anybody who engaged with the event got something out of it. There was a lot going on, and plenty of Chaos lore dumped. Much like Duiran, Enorian was given ample time to participate. Some did! Enorian's CL is especially qualified for this part. Enorian is way larger than 'the order, 2 CLs, and 1 person married to the OH'. Later, the Templars interacted with - and trained, and RPed with, and befriended - one of the NPCs who would later turn out to be one of the Contracts NPCs. The Templar guild is way larger than 'the order, 2 CLs, and 1 person married to the OH'. The Astral Plane lore has been defined over the course of several months. The names of almost every Chaos Lord - and their stories - were shared on a city's newsboard. A city's newboard is way more public than 'the order, 2 CLs, and 1 person married to the OH'. To claim that the event was 'just the order, 2 CLs, and 1 person married to Omei's OH' shows either a willingness to argue in bad faith or an incuriosity about the events that have been right under your nose for multiple months.
The event was about Omei.
The class is heavily tied to Omei.
Nobody was invited to see it, let alone knew anything was happening IG despite being very excited after anticipating the event except for people in her Order, 2 CLs, and 1 person married to Omeis OH despite the whole tether being excited for it.
The class is cool thematically, but does not fit my characters RP. If it did though, I would have felt some kind of way about picking it up at all since it very much feels like an exclusive class by Omei, for Omeiians.
To say anyone more than 'The order, 2 CLS, and Rhine' were at the climax of the event and ultimate release of the class is also Disingenuous.
Ictinus acknowledged it as a problem, so what sort of strawman argument are you trying to make to justify that the climax to a major event was ultimately gatekept, but you got to participate so screw everyone else?
Once again, literally nobody in Duiran knew. Nobody said anything. Just stop.
Illikaal
2