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Customer Review
Hey Everyone,
I wanted to transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience, particularly because protecting fairness in the Aetolian community was reference. As a 17 year customer of Iron Realms (specifically Aetolia) this is customer review of my experience and account so the Aetolian community can set proper expectations for the future.
Big changes were made in Aetolia as of recent with the removal of Producer Tiur and so far his replacement Ictinus has done an outstanding job and put his best foot forward in curating recent events.
Separate from the event category I want to be transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience and this account will be valuable for you in setting expectations moving forward.
First (1) I'm going to relay the facts of what happened and second (2) I'm going to share my opinion of the decision.
Special Room Environment
We'll set up rooms in your house with a special environment. The list available via BUILDING
ENVIRONMENTS is something like 12% of the actual ones. If nothing matches your idea, we'll make another.
There are numerous people throughout the history of Aetolia who have received special things that others haven't. In all fairness I believe it's okay for everyone to receive special things - we are not all the same and the experience we all receive can be different. For instance Mazzion having a blue name on QW and becoming an Ankyrean before level 200 is something that he received and I believe the same type of "special" treatment that he's able to receive should be awarded to all Aetolians - not just a select few. There's other aetolians that fit into this category, but his are just obvious.
Aetolia is already a small community and it costs Aetolia a lot more to lose consistent revenue on a 17 year customer than simply changing an environment token into a relic piece token. What I've suggested allows me not to be able to use an item that Iron Realms offered me and convert it into something that costs Aetolia nothing. Maybe 45 seconds typing on a keyboard. But instead opts to have an unhappy loyal customer.
That's pretty harsh to treat a paying customer of 17 years - with such a hard no and non-negotiating type of position. I'm not asking for a lot - but fair treatment. I didn't hire Tiur and I didn't entrust Tiur to run Aetolia, but I involved myself within the game and financially supported it. So there should be some leniency when it comes to this decision.
In my opinion I don't think it's good business, but it's out of my control.
Thank you.
P.S.
This is what HELP CASTLES said before I pointed it out via email.
"No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done,
but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, and will not be cheap."
This section has been changed to after my email:
In terms of what your castle looks like, that is essentially up to you, but it must be, at best,
minimally magical. No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done, but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, will not be cheap, and must still remain
appropriate to Aetolia's setting, lore, and environment.
Special requests are always at the Producer's discretion, and if something is deemed to be beyond the scope of appropriate housing, it will likely not be approved.
I wanted to transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience, particularly because protecting fairness in the Aetolian community was reference. As a 17 year customer of Iron Realms (specifically Aetolia) this is customer review of my experience and account so the Aetolian community can set proper expectations for the future.
Big changes were made in Aetolia as of recent with the removal of Producer Tiur and so far his replacement Ictinus has done an outstanding job and put his best foot forward in curating recent events.
Separate from the event category I want to be transparent with everyone regarding my recent experience and this account will be valuable for you in setting expectations moving forward.
First (1) I'm going to relay the facts of what happened and second (2) I'm going to share my opinion of the decision.
- Tiur produced the last auction and posted details of each item in the announce posts.
- These items were bid on by the Aetolian community with the trust and expectation that they will do what Iron Realms said they would do.
- A producer change occurred and Ictinus replaced Tiur as producer of Aetolia.
- The details of the Environment Token was one of the items listed in Announce 3202
Special Room Environment
We'll set up rooms in your house with a special environment. The list available via BUILDING
ENVIRONMENTS is something like 12% of the actual ones. If nothing matches your idea, we'll make another.
- I attempted to redeem my environment token in order to create an airship observatory. The talisman currently recognizes airship as an available aetolian environment. Also it is referenced in Aetolian history through HELP DREIKATHI.
- I spoke with Ictinus and he said that the redemption of this item for an airship is no longer the direction that he wishes to take Aetolia and offered a full gold refund for my auction purchase.
- I mentioned that winning an auction item requires more investment than the value of gold that I spent. (I.E. Credit purchases, promo purchases, in-game hours selling goods, and in-game time and effort spent positioning myself to win something in the auction.
- Alternatively, I suggested that we change the environment token into a special artifact of my choosing or a relic piece token that was also offered in the same auction.
- The answer was no. And the most I can get for Iron Realms selling me something that I am not able to use with how they intended is even gold.
There are numerous people throughout the history of Aetolia who have received special things that others haven't. In all fairness I believe it's okay for everyone to receive special things - we are not all the same and the experience we all receive can be different. For instance Mazzion having a blue name on QW and becoming an Ankyrean before level 200 is something that he received and I believe the same type of "special" treatment that he's able to receive should be awarded to all Aetolians - not just a select few. There's other aetolians that fit into this category, but his are just obvious.
Aetolia is already a small community and it costs Aetolia a lot more to lose consistent revenue on a 17 year customer than simply changing an environment token into a relic piece token. What I've suggested allows me not to be able to use an item that Iron Realms offered me and convert it into something that costs Aetolia nothing. Maybe 45 seconds typing on a keyboard. But instead opts to have an unhappy loyal customer.
That's pretty harsh to treat a paying customer of 17 years - with such a hard no and non-negotiating type of position. I'm not asking for a lot - but fair treatment. I didn't hire Tiur and I didn't entrust Tiur to run Aetolia, but I involved myself within the game and financially supported it. So there should be some leniency when it comes to this decision.
In my opinion I don't think it's good business, but it's out of my control.
Thank you.
P.S.
This is what HELP CASTLES said before I pointed it out via email.
"No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done,
but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, and will not be cheap."
This section has been changed to after my email:
In terms of what your castle looks like, that is essentially up to you, but it must be, at best,
minimally magical. No floating castles, no towers of fire, etc. Those types of things _can_ be done, but they must be arranged privately with Ictinus, will not be cheap, and must still remain
appropriate to Aetolia's setting, lore, and environment.
Special requests are always at the Producer's discretion, and if something is deemed to be beyond the scope of appropriate housing, it will likely not be approved.
6
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Now to say you won't honor something that an old producer has set up, that's beyond me why you wouldn't honor it, or mind you be willing to trade is messed up. Personally don't care what others receive that makes no difference to me as a player or play as a Character because I will move on.
Is it hard to do a trade item for item?
That being said, I get the frustration with having won an auction token and not being able to use it for your vision. I do not think it is fair to ask for it to be switched to some other auction artifact. Ictinus seems fair and reasonable to offer a straight refund but things like opportunity cost and such are unquantifiable and unreasonable to ask to be accounted in that equation.
Just my unsolicited two cents.
That being said if airships isn't the direction that the producer doesn't want ME to participate in it. I understand.
It's more to the point as Czcibor expressed that I invested real dollars and time into accumulating the resources to be able to win a special auction. With items that were released by Iron Realm producers. There needs to be an expectation of trust between the producers of iron realms and the aetolian community. As a customer I buy promotions, credits, etc because of the information that producers tell me about the game. I spend real dollars to acquire items that Iron Realms tells me exist. If that changes, why not give me real dollars back as a "refund".
And to preface, I'm not even asking for real dollars back but rightful compensation in game. To get a equal refund on an special auction purchase doesn't equal the value of what I invested in order to get it. It required timing, opportunity and preparation on my part. My decisions were influenced and spending was influenced by what I was told about the auction. Changing that, changes my decisions. Real life decisions which is the unfair part. And the solution I'm suggesting doesn't cost Iron Realms anything. Just about 45 seconds of typing.
But for me winning the auction cost me credit card swipe after credit card swipe and time/preparation in game. Regardless of if a producer is fired, I didn't hire him, Iron Realms did and it's the responsibility of Iron Realms to answer for his mistakes, not me.
In this situation, I'm paying for Iron Realms hiring mistake.
The moment time is considered a commodity that requires compensation, there is never going to be a fair result. Quantifying 'loyalty' to the game/business is also never going to have a fair result.
It is equally unfair to ask Ictinus to speak to what was given out prior to him as producer. He may not have given someone a special race, or another a special artifact, or whatever else has been given out by previous producers.
He has to choose to set a precedent for what he is willing to do moving forward with him at the reigns. Will there be unfair situations? Always, and rarely will people get everything they want.
Being offered a full refund for what was paid is, honestly, the only 'fair' thing that can be done, as while it may not meet the precedent that was set for others, it responds to the only thing that can be quantified, which is what was paid in for the auction. A special artifact or another auction item is continuing the trend of 'unfair' - just in your favor. At some point the 'special treatment' would hit someone else, instead, and while the others prior may be satisfied, we run into this situation.
Full refunds on auction items are, on their own, unprecedented. You are getting exactly what you paid, but wanting more compensation beyond that for things that cannot be quantified.
I'm rambling a bit here, and I am biased, because I see this kind of thing every day, and quite honestly? It irks me.
I don't have much more to add, honestly. It is frustrating not getting what you wanted after you paid, I get that. But honestly, this feels like a situation less of honoring what someone else said they would, and refusing to honor something that should not have been offered in the first place.
The gold is returned, and hopefully, the buck is stopped of special exceptions and subjective responses to people's requests and upsets.
#3202 - 7/28/2021 at 20:18 - Tiur, the Gnosis
Auction II
Special Room Environment
We'll set up rooms in your house with a special environment. The list available via BUILDING
ENVIRONMENTS is something like 12% of the actual ones. If nothing matches your idea, we'll make
another.
That's what Iron Realms producer's said it would do. To specify 12% refers to the obvious environments. Airship is an available environment in Aetolia. I know you mentioned you're new to Aetolia so you may not be familiar with Talisman pieces. When talisman is one of the promos, airship is one of the environments available for purchase - that is not included in the 12% mentioned above. So Airship is apart of the other 88% of environments not referenced in BUILDING ENVIRONEMNT. So it's not about not getting what I want but not getting what the producer of Aetolia said the auction item would do. It explicitly insinuates that the other 88% would be included with the environment token purchase. Outside of the scope of 100% of the available types of aetolian environment would be in the section of "If nothing matches your idea, we'll make another."
To take your perspective and apply it in the most fair way would be to invalidate the entire auction Tiur created and refund everyone for all purchases made. Because a new auction is coming up this month. If you can pick and choose which items don't apply that is already in itself unfair. True fairness is simply invalidating the entire auction because if you must invalidate one item from the producer then all items in that auction should be invalidated since one item could influence the decision making and bidding of everyone involved.
On the matter of ingame spending for the auction IRE did no wrong. He bought credits or promos and received those credits/promos and then if I am reading this correctly traded those credit/promos to other players for gold for the auction.
I'm applying an alternative idea of fairness to this - but if I'm to apply that idea then no one should receive anything from the last auction. There's a new auction coming up, Tiur created a mock auction and now Ictinus has the real one coming up.
Why am I the only one who can't redeem an item from the auction?
As a new producer stepping into a game with significant lore to it, I acknowledge that Ictinus likely had to take the time and effort to research, discuss and sift out pertinent historical information to formalize the overarching story of Aetolia so that it is able to move forward.
This means that I also appreciate that Ictinus told you directly that the environment of 'airship' or being able to having an 'airship environment' is, going on forward, not something that suits the current roleplay direction of Aetolia. As an apology, he offered a full gold refund for your auction purchase. It is reasonable.
I know that you deemed a full gold refund to be unfair, given the effort and funds that you poured into the auction, but it seems pretty impossible for the producer to quantify what he should do to take into account the cost it took you to win the auction.
I also thought it was a bit disingenuous of an initial promotion that where the 'airship' environment is set as a relic carving can be obtained, given there are no existing areas accessible in Aetolia that has this environment. Perhaps some remained in Scidve Cove, but that was for a very short while, and they are all likely inaccessible.
I won some of the credit auctions that Tiur held, and I bought the credits with my card swipes to ensure I had the credits on hand the moment I won it. If I had not won it, would I have argued that I should be refunded for the decisions I made trying to win the auction? I won the eelskin cloak, which zaps individuals who hit my shield with electricity damage. Would I have argued that it did not do what I thought it said it would do? It's a bit unfortunate that you bought the environment token with the idea of utilising it for an airship, but cannot; it's still a very good auction item, however, because it still allows you to potentially suggest a new environment for whatever you envision.
Why not work with Ictinus to see what you environments you can have that matches your idea, instead of straight refunding?
Can I have a list?
Perhaps if the Eelskin cloak instead of doing whatever percentage was advertised only did 1% you'd have a viable argument for a replacement artifact as well. Or maybe an opportunity to bid in another auction since you dedicated your credits on an item that was snake oil instead of what was advertised to you.
That being said, it is written that "If nothing matches your idea, we'll make another."
I'm sure if the context of why of why an airship environment is desired might help Ictinus come up with a unique environment for what you had in mind. I would hope so, at the very least, as it would honour what was written in the auction post for the customer, you, while still being able to respect the roleplay direction of Aetolia.
Not necessarily because it's wrong, but because it's way more likely to get burned if it turns out your idea is not deemed to not be acceptable. The fact that it is an auction where you're probably overpaying what it would otherwise cost if it was offered normally just adds to be bad feels I guess.
I first became aware of this auction on 22nd August, immediately following a town hall meeting. At the time I was asked whether an airship home using the token would be possible. My answer then was 'I'm afraid not.'
On 1st November I was asked again if an airship observatory would be possible for the environment token, and my answer was the same. I gave a similar response for a chaotic void environment that was proposed as an alternative.
I opted to decline the requests to exchange the environment token for a special artifact of the winner's choosing, to exchange the environment token for any relic piece, or to run a standalone auction for a relic piece. I explained that these were not what was listed for sale in the specific auction under scrutiny, and that offering something other than what was sold would be unfair and set a bad precedent.
Instead, I offered a full refund of the gold spent on the auction - this in itself is a departure from traditional auction rules, but I felt it was a fair offer given the circumstances of Tiur's departure. Had it been paid in credits, the refund would have been in credits. Had it been paid in coins, the refund would have been in coins.
Following this, the complaint was escalated to Jeremy and I declined a fourth request from Jhin to remove Mazzion's blue name as a tradeoff for the environment token refund. I made the update to HELP CASTLES following Jeremy's handling of the query, and at his request.
I do sympathise with the situation since the ambiguously listed item is an entirely unacceptable way to post an auction. This practice will not continue with future auction listings. I am also going to take this opportunity to reaffirm our position that use of city gold or drawing on any and all resources available to you to win an auction is explicitly not cheating.
It is rare that I have not honoured a decision made by Tiur, but in this case I do not believe that the item could reasonably be interpreted as allowing carte blanche for environments that do not make sense as something a character could reasonably have constructed or had created. I confirmed with a review of server logs that Tiur had not explicitly given the ok to an airship environment at any point during or after the auction.
Airship DOES exist as an environment in Aetolia's database, but its existence on the Talisman of Sapience does not correlate with it being permitted as a housing option. (And the Talisman itself has numerous issues that are not related to the subject at hand).
Maintaining the lore and consistency of the game world is something that's essential to the integrity of Aetolia. Iron Realms has confirmed this stance, and it is for this reason that all customisation-type requests that go through the admin are subject to approval, in much the same way that there are strict crafting guidelines that are similarly subject to their own standards of approval.
It is however not possible to quantify the secondary resources or effort that went into winning the auction. I understand that's frustrating and far from ideal, and this won't happen with auctions in the future.
Imagine trying to have someone else's toys taken away because you weren't getting exactly what you wanted. Some of you really need to re-evaluate how you play this game.
Wow.
What was the point of all of this? Well, basically that a full gold refund is essentially the best thing that can be offered here. It's what the token is worth. That gold is the summation of your time and effort spent gathering it. It is, in pretty much every sense of the word, the same thing as a redemption of that token for that feature in your home. It's arguably better, because it's now been transformed into a fully fungible form. It's no longer sitting in your inventory being useless. It's gold that you can spend on other things now. That effort value is still there. It's just not in the form you want it to be. Which, don't get me wrong, sucks. But it is what it is. If I had my bottomless vial that I got in the auction taken from me I'd be super bummed. It'd be a consolation to have a full refund of the credits, though.
it crosses the line when you communicate something false regarding my alleged words publicly.
everything that I shared is of material fact.
Logs of fact are necessary - otherwise the entire community can disregard your conjecture.
Jhin 2021/11/03 18:10:39 - tell ictinus But I do feel its unfair that we have an ankyrean before level 200 and a blue name dude walking around. What's fair would be take away the blue name similar to how taking away my environment token.
I think this thread has run its course now.