Request: Luminary Logs

Ezalor

But classes that can't truelock have other instakills that they can go for that synergize better with their skillsets. Don't even need to tumble, if you're trying for a channeled insta and they aren't all messed up they can just slash curare, whisper pacifism, throw hangedman, sweepkick, etc etc. Tumble is also like the worst way to get out of a room, you can leap/fade/fly/burrow/swing/whatever. One of them is bound to work!

Moirean

Ok let me try to explain this again, using Indorani as the example. Indorani are designed with 3 main kills in mind - vivi, death tarot and wheel. Two of these are channeled. Death is primarily stopped by either sleeping the Indo or leaving the room, while wheel is stopped by standing and ripping card, sleeping the Indorani or also leaving the room. Indorani have gravehands and rubble to make the leaving harder. We have warrior to get breaks. This is the synergy you are talking about, I assume.

A smart fighter doesn't just waste something like death channel at random - you get the target to a point of being screwed up so they can't simply toss out an interrupt or run off. I've lured people into indoor rooms to stop leaping and flight, flooded and rubbled and gravehands - basically everything in my power to stop them from easily escaping. Tumbling completely ignores all of this, as you can merrily tumble out even if all of your limbs are torn off, quicker than the channel can finish.

Behead, brainsmash, judge - these skills also can't beat a tumble, even if you completely tie someone down. Again, you can't actively stop a tumble if you're channeling, so you can't stop them from getting out and continue the channel, even through something like piety or gravehands. Tumble bypasses that. A smart tumbler will never die to a channeled kill. IMHO tumble becomes pretty darn powerful if it can shut off those kill routes so easily.

Haven

Tumble should really be stopped by a number of things (paralysis, broken legs, true prone, stuns, etc) in addition to the current setup and should be used as a means of escaping prior to being completely messed up not afterwards. (I don't mean that if they are tumbling that you should be able to stop tumble with paralysis or epteth/epseth. Their body is already in motion, whatever, tumble should go through as normal. But if I've actually locked them down with broken legs or paralysis and am going for the kill, tumble shouldn't be allowed to occur.)

If the fight is starting to go badly, tumble should be an option but there's a point where it just shouldn't happen and the combat should end with a clear victor. I don't like fight resets. A loss should be a loss. These hour or more long fights because of the sheer number of ways a person can reset it back to zero are complete BS in my opinion.

Corlin

Yeah - it becomes a matter of whittling resources, and as a Luminary, resources are.. rude.

Only one of my three resources is replenishable in a fight, and it means I'm probably stuck smiting you to do it.

That's why I'm sort of wary about getting into the higher tiers of combat - given that my character is higher level, but I am a newbie where pk is concerned, the 'entrance' to pk is proving rather annoying, because the only spars I can get around my own might are people who kill me while I'm still trying to remember my macros - because I just don't have the artifacts - spark boon, devotion boon, prayer beads - to make prolonged fights viable.

Edit - Unless we're counting spiritbulbs. Which we're not. Because filling / maintaining a supply of those is crazy expensive, devotion wise.

Moirean

Spark and devotion need to be made more forgiving. I would go through all of mine in a single fight or two if things dragged on (warfare, especially, was horrible on devotion), and that's really a boring and frustrating way to lose. We ended up having non-comms constantly providing piles of bulbs for the city's  fighters during wars, or there would be no way for them to continue fighting otherwise. 

At the least, devotion needs a consume heart equivalent. Consume...uhh...sparkles or whatever. Absolve is fine for angel power (fills em past max!) and you can refresh for that mid-fight. Spark could definitely use an on-the-go refill option.

Serrice

For spark, can you just like, use firestorm or whatever to start raging out of control wildfires and just eat those as necessary?

Moirean

I never had luck with that working (it might have to do with being in the guild or not? I remember trying a variety of fires, including Ayhesa) and always had to bug Kylan to let me into the Daru GH so I'd stop getting fires set everywhere.

Haven

We kinda already do I think with consume fire (plus we can set areas on fire too and create firewalls at will) so it'd be neat if the effect could be boosted to be on par with other class resources. I wouldn't mind having to set up a firewall and then consuming it to restore a decent chunk of devotion. And spiritbulbs would retain their use as being a non-balance way of replenishing devotion.

Though I might be remembering wrong. Consuming fire might be a spark thing. All I can recall off the top of my head is that consuming fires were pretty insignificant and largely weren't worth the effort.

Ezalor

You're worrying about all these random things that will rarely ever happen. Best way to get into PK is just go do it! You will die over and over but just log everything, learn from it, and understand your class.

If anyone even thinks about starting tumble against you as a Luminary, just Overwhelm them. If people are playing properly and fighting to win instead of fighting not to lose, fights really don't last that long. Some turtle options do exist that slow things down to a ridiculous stalemate (fitness, hangedman, extra curing, shield whoring, running away) but luckily most people don't abuse them endlessly because then fights get ridiculously boring. If someone really wants to devote everything to stop you from killing them...meh. Just go fight someone else.

Daskalos

@Moirean - I had a report to get a consume heart equivalent last time and got a Rite of Prayer boost instead, which while it doesn't work mid-fight, seems to help somewhat. Spark though definately needs something, though the portable beads are nice in that if you can steal a moment to meditate you can get it back up.

Corlin

Here's a log!

I'm still working on some things - for example, I only recently added overwhelm into my offense, since I was having trouble with my on/off toggle - so there's a couple snags on my side here, like trying to overwhelm when he wasn't paralysed anymore.

Vs Azton - Spar 1

Here's another log:

Vs Azton - Spar 2

In this one, I notice that I don't cure sunlight_allergy very well, and that my parry trigger that sets my echo for sucessful parry ... isn't working. I later discovered that it didn't actually exist. I also found that my templar affliction aura trigger was just creating a variable named 'unknown' rather than marking 'unknown' in my afflictions.

He says that recklessness wasn't curing properly either time, which is what led to my victories.

Tips and suggestions welcome!

Daskalos

I don't overwhelm off Paralysis - you don't have enough momentum usually to do that. I try to layer on a ton of afflictions and overwhelm off transfix.

Corlin

Daskalos said:

I don't overwhelm off Paralysis - you don't have enough momentum usually to do that. I try to layer on a ton of afflictions and overwhelm off transfix.

I was pondering that, too. The speed isn't really optimal, as wise, so I was thinking of dropping paralysis from my overwhelm check. That'd also help with the command to overwhelm going through before they cure it.

Ezalor

I'd use stupidity at the start when you're putting Sear and stuff on, cause whatever it is will just get cured instantly and stupidity at least has a chance to make them do secrets or relax insomnia or something.

Shouldn't be using self-pity at all until impatience and stupidity are both on them, it's a completely useless aff except to bury stupidity/impatience.

I wouldn't use heatwave at all, berserk is a horrible aff that does nothing. Just take the time to strip the rebounding/shield/whatever.

See all those regular combos you were doing at 2.75? All those would be 7% faster as Dex + Crown. I am like 99.9% sure that is the better statpack choice unless you want to lightning people to death too. 

It isn't that your system is "bad" at curing sunlight allergy, it's that it's a meh aff so other ones are prioritized above it. Your system is spending its balances curing other more important affs.

Finally, consider what you want to accomplish with what you are doing. The impatience aff route actually STOPS them from burning mana as it disables focus. If you're going for impatience and burying it under stupidity and self-pity, you're going for aff pressure, not pure Absolve. The theory behind Luminaries and Mentis users actually seems very similar, except you can't really truelock but instead get somewhere with stacking non-key affs due to Overwhelm. I'd have to pick up the class myself to really be able to get into detail beyond that, I'm not entirely sure what end-game to go for since kelp affs aren't as important to Lumis as they are to Mentis users. Seems like it's more stack-affs-doesn't-matter-what-they-are-Overwhelm than targeting specific affs like vampires. But I also don't know what affs your passives give, maybe some of the key ones are in there.

Corlin

Impatience stops them from focusing away an aff - but it doesn't stop them from trying to focus, if they want. It costs mana if they try.

Edit - I would guess that most systems would not focus at all if they're impatient, so yeah, it does cost me one avenue of mana loss. But, it also means that stupid is all the more stuck on them. With me using sear every so often to keep them from being able to tree out, they need to renew, which has a higher mana cost than focus anyway.

Self pity only goes through if my system thinks impatience is already there, and stupid is at the top of my chasten affs, so if the angel is pitying, I'm either pretty sure they've got stupidity, or am about to give it to them. My tracking still needs a couple tweaks, though.

Edit2 - Heatwave does damage. It's only five hundred-ish, but the balance on heatwave isn't very high, and it gives more affs, which isn't bad, and eats the clarity defense, if you have it. Versus angel strip - my fastest method of stripping rebounding - which .. does no affs, or damage, and isn't really any faster than heatwave. I got two kills last night testing this set up because recklessness got stuck and heatwave killed them.

Not saying it's the most viable route, but considering the upsides of strip versus heatwave, I'd heatwave anyway. Your purity necklace / passive curing might eat berserk instead of stupid or something, and that's enough reason for me, anyway.

Edit3 - my 'goal' is pretty much the same vs anyone, at this point. All the affs I can stick, for absolve. If I toggle my absolve off, the goal is the same, except I keep fighting you until I can overwhelm you to death, or maybe judge.

Daskalos

Heatwave gives 2 affs, at that - it also delivers hallucinations. And I'm trying really hard to be nice here, Ezalor, but I've fought as both Dexterous and Wise, and Wise is by far the better choice. And everyone else in this thread who has actually -played- the class has said as much. Just sayin'.

Haven

I'd only go DEX with a crown or wanted optimal limb damage route. That said, berserking and hallucinations are also focusable so Heatwave does have its uses beyond rebounding stripping.

Daskalos

Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Your rebounding defence has been stripped.
Your eyes shine with the light of divine love, melting the angry heart of yourself.
You are afflicted with peace.
You are afflicted with pacifism.
Equilibrium Used: 1.97 seconds

You direct a dazzling ray of divine light at yourself.
Yourself reels as the beam strikes, dazzled and confused.
You are afflicted with dizziness.
You are afflicted with confusion.
Equilibrium Used: 4.74 seconds (confusion, so 2. 37)

As you enact the rite of demons, your hackles rise.
Equilibrium Used: 3.16 seconds

Equilibrium Used: 3.95 seconds
You stretch out your hands to Aren, and all light-tolerance bleeds from her body.

You weave fire and light before Aren and strip their blindness!
Equilibrium Used: 2.37 seconds

You utter words of mighty power, and Aren is immediately consumed in flame.
Your flames consume Aren's aura of rebounding.
Equilibrium Used: 2.37 seconds

You enact the Rite of Piety, the foundations of your devotion binding all within its grasp.
Equilibrium Used: 3.16 seconds

You quickly reach out and point at Aren, your finger nearly brushing her skin as a brilliant arc of your inner spark bursts forth and envelops her in a crackling burst of flame. Aren screams, but the flames are gone as quickly as they came.
<--- SEARED THE TARGET! TREE TATTOO DISABLED --->
Equilibrium Used: 2.37 seconds

Your angel casts a piercing glance at Aren.
Equilibrium Used: 2.37 seconds

 

All of these (and many more) are EQ only attacks that aren't stack with a balance attack. If you want to afflict, wise is the route to go for TOTAL package. We're not simple Vampires that just have to use slash\mentis whisper. We have a broader range of skills we use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haven

You have a crown too, yar?

Corlin

He has everything.

And lots of pipes, too.

Daskalos

Yea, I've got everything.

Macian

Does anyone have a way to clean up or post full HTML logs generated by MUSH? I have some super old Luminary logs (New skillsets, not old) where I got my butt kicked due to no poor writhing, but it might have some ideas in there. I'm just struggling to post them in a comprehensible format.

I realize I haven't fought as a Luminary in a long time, but I think I did ok, and had a lot of input on the skills, so I'll keep throwing my two cents in...

The bit that people miss about Dexterous,  in my opinion, is shield slam, punch, kelp stacks. Much like an old school knight, you need to try to stick asthma to drop rebounding for a period of time in order to get your aff rate up. Unfortunately it's not a strong kelp stack.

Has anyone ever played around with Dex, focused on sticking Haemophilia, and used buckler overwhelm for a bleed route? (Believe overwhelm does 250 bleed)

Daskalos

I tried that for a little while (was originally dex) before I finally gave in and tried wise. Suddenly tactics that didn't work in dex were working in wise. Hence, wise.

Ezalor

Daskalos said:

Heatwave gives 2 affs, at that - it also delivers hallucinations. And I'm trying really hard to be nice here, Ezalor, but I've fought as both Dexterous and Wise, and Wise is by far the better choice. And everyone else in this thread who has actually -played- the class has said as much. Just sayin'.

 

@Corlin renew is on a 20 second cooldown, it's going to be constantly used against your aff rate with or without impatience. Whether they are focusing or not really isn't going to change whether they are renewing or not. For the record, I'm not saying not to use impatience - you definitely should be - just noting an inconsistency in the earlier post of "not wanting to stack affs, go for absolve instead" followed by using an impatience route, which is just completely contradictory. If you really wanted pure mana burn without caring about sticking affs the best route is probably something like stupidity, self-pity, weariness which forces an eat, eat, focus every round rather than eat, eat, eat (which is what stupidity, impatience, paralysis does). The latter obviously causes affs to stack on more since you will outpace herb balance, the former really has no real aff pressure but does burn 250 mana for focus every time.

The rebounding issue, I assumed you could do a shield attack after angel strip. If that's not the case, then Luminaries probably need something that works like that and allows the strip to either be comboed with a chasten or the shield attack. The thing with berserk is it's a 100% useless aff, the effect does absolutely nothing and its place on the cure order masks nothing, it can basically be completely ignored. Hallucinations are kinda nice but if it's 50/50 between that and clarity strip, meh, Lumies are kind of gimped on rebounding. If it's 100% when they don't have clarity, then that's pretty decent, but I dunno how fast hallucinations ticks or if it's good enough to require curing above impatience. 

I won't get into arguing statpacks anymore though beyond to say that your normal combos happen way more often than any of those eq only attacks posted. Dex Crown is how I would play the class, and I am almost 100% sure what Bartholomew was running, because just by looking at it it really is the optimal route for aff routes. But hey, whatever works. Everything coming from me is just theorycrafting in any case, I don't have the class.

Daskalos

Bartholomew played as a Dex because he didn't have money for a reincarnation and he also multiclassed as a Templar, so it was a better compromise for the two. Bart and I both spent a lot of time fighting as the class. I'm not trying to discount what you're saying, but your theorycraft is exactly what I assumed when I first picked up the class, and as Dexterous, your stripping abilities are a lot slower, somewhere around three seconds. Rebounding will really push you. Instead, just use other attacks to keep up the aff rate and only strip the rebounding if you've already layered on the other 4-6 affs we can deliver through rebounding.

Everything coming from me is actual experience, not theorycraft. But I don't know what I'm talking about

Ezalor

Mm, I'll take your word for it. I'd really ask for a way to combo angel strip with shield attacks though (and battle if you can't use them together currently) in the next liaison round cause heatwave seems pretty meh unless berserk becomes a better aff. Or just ask for a new rebounding strip, because comboing defense strip that isn't rebounding with other stuff is pretty mean. A rebounding strip that uses balance I guess, so you can battle and chasten off it. Berserk is like an anxiety that cures last, awesome...

Daskalos

We have another rebound strip, evoke fire, which does damage\sets ablaze\removes rebounding. It's just not as useful as delivering 2 affs since we don't use mend breaks in the aff run. I -do- use evoke fire eventually, but only after I've got dazzle and heatwave stuck on them.

 

Macian

Angel Strip also takes down rebounding first. It's somewhere around 2.25 seconds eq.

Corlin

Haven's numbers - which, for the record, are wonderful to have as reference - provided earlier state strip is 2.15 seconds as wise.

The same numbers list evoke fire as 2.79 and dazzle as 2.58. So, for an extra 0.64 seconds, I get damage and two affs on my most common response to rebounding. I use angel strip for shield, which I'm thinking of switching for evoke fire, because angel strip - while faster - does -not- prioritize shield.

A nearly invisible magical shield forms around Jeromy.

H:6050 M:5951 [csdb|-- lr][03:43:27]

You have recovered equilibrium.

H:6050 M:5951 [csdb|e- lr][03:43:28]

Jeromy sticks himself with a long needle.

HEALTH TRACKER RESET

H:6050 M:5951 [csdb|e- lr][03:43:28]

Jeromy grimaces as cracks spider across his dried skin.

H:6050 M:5951 [csdb|e- lr][03:43:28]

Jeromy writhes in pain as your brilliant light burns and sickens him.

[Firebrand]: Kill! Maim! Destroy!

contemplate Jeromy

H:6050 M:5951 [csdb|eb lr][03:43:28]

angel strip Jeromy

Jeromy's mana stands at 6380/6380.

[Guardian]: Their mana is NOT low enough to absolve.

H:6050 M:5901 [csdb|eb lr][03:43:28]

You bid your angel strip a defence from Jeromy.

His stalking defence is stripped.

Equilibrium Used: 2.15 seconds

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|-b lr][03:43:29]

Jeromy eats a liver slice.

Target cured: dizziness

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|-b lr][03:43:29]

Jeromy eats a liver slice.

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|-b lr][03:43:29]

Your tree tattoo tingles slightly.

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|-b lr][03:43:29]

[Guardian]: Sear is down! SEAR THEM! F3! Sear is down!

Jeromy eats a liver slice.

Target cured: impatience

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|-b lr][03:43:31]

[Firebrand]: Kill! Maim! Destroy!

contemplate Jeromy

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|eb lr][03:43:31]

A look of extreme focus crosses the face of Jeromy.

Target cured: hallucinations

H:6050 M:5801 [csdb|eb lr][03:43:31]

angel strip Jeromy

Jeromy's mana stands at 6155/6380.

[Guardian]: Their mana is NOT low enough to absolve.

H:6050 M:5751 [csdb|eb lr][03:43:31]

You bid your angel strip a defence from Jeromy.

His selfishness defence is stripped.

Equilibrium Used: 2.15 seconds

H:6050 M:5651 [csdb|-b lr][03:43:31]

The protective shield around Jeromy dissipates.

Jeromy drops to the floor and sweeps his legs round at you.

He connects!

Jeromy knocks your legs out from under you and sends you sprawling to the floor.

Affs: prone

H:6050 M:5651 [cspdb|-b lr][03:43:32]

Edit - :-L Spoiler/quotes on these forums. :-L

Thus far, I've not found any actual reason -not- to use heatwave when confronted with rebounding. Yes, it stops me from shield striking. No, I don't think that's worth either no affs - angel strip - or a less desirable aff - aflame - because.. heatwave does health damage, which might make them not sip mana, and it gives more affs, which though not in themselves useful, do help to bury my other afflictions. Eating / treeing / renewing away something versus applying mending isn't a question. I don't care if you're off salve balance, the only aff I'm giving that takes that is anorexia. It'd be nice if anorexia stuck, but recklessness seems to stick just fine without it.

Macian

I agree, I never used strip or fire for rebounding. One of the reasons for heatwave having hallucinations in there was to provide an ash stack for dazzle, which, as you said, also goes through rebounding.

Random info: I'm not sure if this is even a mechanic anymore with smoking changes, but Evoke fire was meant to have a mechanic added that reset the rebounding timer, like Raze (or like it did, I'm not sure). The only real intention for it was to break rebounding stacking.