Request: Luminary Logs

Corlin

Hey - 

Stemming from my recent interest in luminary combat, and a quick use of google-fu, I have found that almost none of the currently available luminary logs are either current, or actually from the luminary point of view.

There are a couple logs of Daskalos tossing lightning at people, and one log of Haven fighting a Carnifex, and even one very old log of Alexina as a monk, but there don't appear to be any from the pov of the luminary. I'm exploring this in game and discussing it here and there, but I'd like to request those of you out there who use Luminary - or can - in your spars / duels post a log here or there to Logsty for me to study and ask questions about.

Looking at AB files and exploring theory isn't quite the same as seeing how these stacks / routes work in actual combat situations, when hinders and other things come into play.

Thanks!

Moirean

I have some on my site, but they are at least a year or so old.

I'll go through my old logs and see if I have any fun lumi fights to add.

https://sites.google.com/site/jlhealy/home/logs-combat

Daskalos

All are versus Saybre:

First Log: My primary offense, without absolver disabled. This is what I was using against Ezalor at the end of the Duel:  http://www.logsty.com/logs/oUdol

Second Log; My primary offense, with absolver enabled. This is what I typically use: http://www.logsty.com/logs/bnnJl

Third Log: This goes through some of my lesser offenses - one that sets up a Judge (never worked in this log), another that goes for a venomlock (doesn't work), and then me just going through some other ones to show what you can do with the class: http://www.logsty.com/logs/NWP2I

And another one, versus Conner, which was a draw as I tried to go for the judge. Almost got it!:  http://www.logsty.com/logs/N0wbb

Note I play as a wise Luminary, so you won't find any Limb Break stuff in here, however, at some point maybe I'll reincarnate wise and manually fight someone as it.

Corlin

@Daskalos - Is wise viable for those of us with fewer [read: no] artifacts? I don't know what, if any, luminary skills besides lightning are really augmented by artifact purchase, but from my limited testing, it seems that dexterous is where you'd want to go for pressing our shield afflictions.

I've heard a few people say that dexterous plus a crown is where it's at. Does seven percent really make a huge difference?

@Moirean - Thanks. I'll take a look, and welcome anything else you'd feel up to contributing.

I feel like there's a lot of potential in luminary as a profession, but they seem so firmly in the middle ground whatever route you choose - knights can give more varied afflictions, faster, and lycans or monks can chase the limb damage route. I really like the imagery and role play of the luminary class, though, and I'd love to explore the option of using the class to pk with. It just seems that the curve is rather steep, since they're sitting so carefully between the obvious routes, and these logs - and the conversations I've been having - are a great help in figuring out my course.

Daskalos

@Corlin - I prefer wise, simply because there are far more standalone attacks that rely on equilibrium over balance - Fire, Dazzle, Transfix, Heatwave, Peace, All the rites, hellsight, all the angel abilities, et cetera. You're only going to be as fast as your slowest balance, so while your shield\chasten combo might be a touch faster (and I'm talking like .10 second faster) with dexterous+crown, your overall attack speed is faster in wise if you do what I did above. I use wise, as does most Luminary combatants.  I've used Dexterous, but I find it doesn't feel as fast overall and I don't push affs as well as normal. The only difference is that in wise the limb break route is more or less out.

Haven

This might help you out some: http://pastebin.com/msRYtd63

I actually like Wise better for afflicting than Dexterous if only for the faster recovery bypassing rebounding with attacks like heatwave and dazzle to continue the offense. However, for limb damage attacks, Dexterous seems like the way to go. Although Wise is still viable in that aspect.

I'll try to post some of my spars here.

Ezalor

Don't see why you wouldn't go Dexterous judging from @Haven's numbers. As Dexterous or Wise your combo is capped at 2.75, except if you go Dexterous + Crown you get 2.56 second combos instead.

Also is there some sort of internal cooldown on the 3 aff thing? 3 at 2.56 seems a bit much, but either no Luminary has really abused it or there must be something preventing it from happening at that speed all the time.

EDIT: Ah, I see Angel Battle is 5 seconds. Yeah that makes sense then.

Macian

To me, the big decision for Luminary herbal offense and dexterous vs. wise was always:

Wise: Dazzle/Heatwave to bypass rebounding, with the fastest Strike/Chastise outside of dex+crown

vs.

Dexterous: Facesmash/Slam for faster overall herbal affs if you use those two a lot.

At least, I think that's what I was thinking when I suggested those four skills for the moderate redo Luminaries got when I was liaison. Something may have changed in the meantime with shield changes?

I'll see if I can dig up some luminary logs.

Haven

Ezalor said:

Don't see why you wouldn't go Dexterous judging from @Haven's numbers. As Dexterous or Wise your combo is capped at 2.75, except if you go Dexterous + Crown you get 2.56 second combos instead.

Also is there some sort of internal cooldown on the 3 aff thing? 3 at 2.56 seems a bit much, but either no Luminary has really abused it or there must be something preventing it from happening at that speed all the time. 

Angel attack balance is separate from everything. It's unchangeable at around 3 or 4 seconds. So we get 3 affliction output every other round, otherwise we're only giving 2.

Ezalor

Even with rebounding I'd say Dexterous is superior in all situations because of the Crown. You get to speed your stuff up by 14% and 7% (overall gain of 7%, you're only as fast as your slowest portion), whereas with Wise it's just 14% on eq and 0% on balance (14% gain on rebounding, but 0% on everything else).

Looks like Luminaries have the capability to truelock too, interesting class with the Battle mechanics and disabling tree tattoo. Hnnngh wish that April Fool's joke was real.

Haven

Also, I like wise over dexterous because you're not slowed down as much by rebounding. If rebounding pops up, you can opt to choose to continue piling on afflictions through rebounding at competitive speeds with dazzle/heatwave/evoke lightning etc instead of stripping it. And since berserking will passively strip rebounding by itself when it procs, it's even more helpful in maintaining an offense.

Ezalor

Berserking is like super useless aff, 0/10 would not use. I thought it would help me with stupid shield spammers but it doesn't fire unless you have balance/eq and someone shield spamming/attacking efficiently will never really be on bal/eq. Guess it comes down to 14% faster vs rebounding or 7% faster in everything, personally I'd go with the latter. Heatwave kinda sucks it looks like, I wouldn't bother not stripping the rebounding :P.

Haven

Ezalor said:

Berserking is like super useless aff, 0/10 would not use. I thought it would help me with stupid shield spammers but it doesn't fire unless you have balance/eq and someone shield spamming/attacking efficiently will never really be on bal/eq. Guess it comes down to 14% faster vs rebounding or 7% faster in everything, personally I'd go with the latter. Heatwave kinda sucks it looks like, I wouldn't bother not stripping the rebounding :P.

o.o I dunno about you but it procs like crazy whenever I give it. And most people don't cure it early because it's not particularly dangerous beyond stripping your own rebounding/shielding. I'll have to show a log.

Ezalor

There's an inefficiency somewhere in those people's actions then :P. It only ever procs if they have both balance and equilibrium and in an efficient fight that should really never happen. It would be 10000000000000% more useful if it was like epilepsy and procced even when they didn't have balances, that would actually make it useful against shield spamming. I mean I guess if for whatever reason they were just sitting behind rebounding and not attacking or shielding it'd be useful, but then just strip the rebounding and kill them anyway cause they're afk.

Haven

Huh.

Didn't realize berserking worked like that. Yes, please to upgrade berserking!

Ezalor

You have no idea how happy that would make me.

Corlin

Thanks for those numbers, @Haven.

Feel free to keep the logs coming. I'm reading some of Daskalos' now. Why do you keep chaining heatwave and self-pity? They seem unrelated. Is the goal to try and stick self-pity to keep them off the stupidity you'll give them later?

Daskalos

I'm pretty worn out as I type this, so I hope it makes sense:

Basically, I run an angel battle routine that is predicated on sticking stupidity and impatience first over everything else. I then run strike (paralysis) as my standalone. I'm ripping off the oldest trick in the book - Aconite\Curare. However, rather than stripping rebounding I use heatwave which deals damage, 2 afflictions, and bypasses it to keep up the pressure. The goal of my offense isn't necessarily to put a ton of afflictions and use overwhelm, though that happens a lot. It's main goal is to keep the opponent using mana and being unable to cure it, with the hope that I can siphon off enough mana through attrition and forcing them to use focus\cure health to become absolveable. I accomplish that through a goldenseal stack. If it's delivering self-pity, then the system thinks they already have stupidity and is delivering to help prevent the curing of such. If it's not... then it's a bug I need to work out (and is entirely possible it's in there, because I've done a lot of quick recoding)

Angel Battle is on 5 second balance, so it's an every other round thing. We can't use Spiritwrack and Battle together, but basically Battle is spiritwrack made non passive, non random. Supposedly if you let Wrack work (instead of battle) and it layers all the affs it'll sap as well, but not sure if that still exists since the faulty implementation of that in battle (where it would just sap if you afflicted the same affliction twice, versus having to stick 5 first) and was subsequently removed. Just like chasten will smite if you get all the chasten affs and you can do a double smite with smite\chastensmite.

Also, lots of people ignore anxieties, so self-pity just sits out there in no man's land until they have to cure it. It's nice that way, and a good setup for stupidity later. Stupidity prone procc'ing is nice for quick overwhelms with the non-lethal buckler, which still lets you hide a couple of afflictions.

Macian

There's also a third mode to battle/spiritwrack. But it's rarely used (Pretty sure it wasn't removed?)

If you turn spiritwrack on, it will hit passively, and you can use battle to control what it will hit with next. I sometimes wondered if there was potential there, when using Dex+crown or spamming out the faster shield affs, but never really tested it. Most people prefer the triple affliction combo of strike/Chasten+battle

Corlin

I threw together a thing last night that should, theoretically, help me go for sap kills as a luminary. It also works if I want to go for overwhelm instead, so I'll be testing that here and there and maybe I'll post a log or two as contribution.

@Macian - I think that still exists. I just stopped using spiritwrack since I always using battle anyway.

I was fiddling last night with the idea of breaking their arms and hoping they didn't precache to stick hellsight, but as I'm currently in wise statpack, it wasn't proving to be a golden maneuver.

Edit - I was told during one of my tests that I slowed his curing down enough that he had to go defensive to keep ahead, so that was nice. Next step is trying to find a stack that works well for judge. As many affs as I did manage to stick on him - which led eventually to absolve - I never really felt like he'd be down long enough to try for judge, and I really was going full tilt. I'll have to study Daskalos' judge log more closely, but I'd also love any other examples of it.

Daskalos

Judge is going to be next to impossible to pull off if you try to go my route because we don't have a big enough ash stack and shield crash has too long of an eq on it (longer than every other disrupt affliction in the game). Trying to do a few things to make this more feasible, just gotta wait for another liaison round.

Also, the theory is there, but break arms\transfix\flare and you should stick hellsight pretty hard. Don't know if you could do it in wise, though.

Haven

I don't think Judge is ever worth using outside of team combat for a Luminary. Absolve and Overwhelm are leaps and bounds above and beyond/better than Judge for securing a kill one on one if only for the fact that your offense/curing does not have to stop to execute those kills routes.

Unless, of course, you're just wanting to say "Haha, I messed you up so bad that I judged you."

Illikaal

Well I mean, sometimes it's jut worth it. Like the time I hardlocked Tina as a Shaman. Now THAT was worth a beheading. 

Moirean

Judge works if people forget about tumble. Personally, I want tumble to be affected by limbs broken, ie, if you have 4 broken limbs it is a ton slower to tumble than if you have no broken limbs. This would make kills like judge, decapitate, brainsmash, wheel, etc viable kill options from limb damage buildup.

Haven

I approve of just about anything that'll reduce the effectiveness of escape skills or any skill really that resets a fight. If you lost, you lost. Just take the death and learn from it for next time.

Daskalos

I think tumble should just have an active counter. Years ago on Achaea if someone started to tumble I'd block the direction they were tumbling and force them to exit normally, which would abort the tumble (and they'd hit my block and remain in the room). But there's really not anyway to do that now.

As for judge, there's something to be said about getting a Judge kill. Just like last month, I got a purity kill. I love the kill message on that one

Moirean

Well, people who can impale can stop tumble. Entangle *used* to stop tumble, but apparently it doesn't anymore (or hangedman just doesn't work for that). Still, if you are doing a channeled kill (and can't for obvious reasons interrupt it by actively stopping a tumble), it's pretty silly that tumble basically defeats your entire setup of getting someone completely broken and stuck prone in a room that is hard to leave, as tumble is faster than the channel.

Lin

Slam throw also stops tumble!

Moirean

Which, again, ya can't do while brainsmashing or whatever :P

Ezalor

If someone tumbles can't you just Overwhelm them? I love it when someone tries to tumble, bam feed!

Brainsmash/behead/judge/cleave/whatever channeled insta should only really be done on truelock/them being completely messed up anyways, anything else is really just hoping they don't have the message for a cheap kill.

Moirean

Not all classes can truelock. If you can truelock, you can voyria. Classes that CAN'T truelock should be able to use channeled attacks as viable kill routes - Indorani, for example, are built around TWO different channeled kills and have support skills like rubble and gravehand to facilitate these, yet both are easily stopped by a tumble.

I'm mostly just derailing about tumble in general. H8 it. Then again, I've totally whored it before to get salve balance caught back up. Which I guess is another reason the time should be increased based on limb damage. :P