Crafting Ideas

Areka

Now in tandem with the Crafting Requests and Wish List thread for ease of access and reference.

Since this could easily become messy on its own, I felt it should be its own thread.

Currently the Crafting clan has project 105 to record ideas in.

Since they tend to just sit there, maybe visibility will be better and things more easily discussed and and listed here.

Since we do not often have an active or consistent Becue, that would be the first thing asked for (we recently had an old thread in this via Alexina).

Second to that: Maybe assistants to Becue that would be appointable, similar to Builders, to assist with channeling issues, input upon rules and consistency, adding alternatives by majority reasonability or approval, and so on.

Damonicus

Mortal crafters should be allowed. Even have elections in the crafters clan or guild and pick one, two maybe even three people to just actually assist and help make crafters not so...Yeah I refuse to design anything anymore. I barely look at the que anymore and if I do, unless it sparks my interest to even look at the design, not even going to touch it. Need new Becue, make a few mortals like Gretel or Hansel, Become Becue....done..

Alexina

Okay. So. In order of importance:

• Add piercings to jewelcrafting. Please. Alternatively, just add 'a body ornamentation certificate' for 50 credits to access a piercings miniskill.
  
• Add designable tattoos as its own crafting skill. Possibly just add 'a body art certificate' for 50 credits to unlock the skills via the tattoo skillset.
• Add a 'help crafting rulings' that could be continuously updated when Becue says a specific thing is or is not allowed.
  
• Let's get a more active Becue.
• Add a weapon/armour enchantment that makes it possible to customise magical properties unto forged items. Possibly requiring a similar certificate as for piercings/tattooing since magical customisations used to cost credits.
  
• Rule clarifications: Are we allowed to hyphenate items to make our own references? As in, would 'half-mask' be acceptable? Or 'wyrm-scale armour'?
  
• Rule clarifications: How big liberties are crafters allowed to take with items? Can the earring design be a tongue stud? Can you make a flower bed out of the bed design? Can you make a 'bodystocking uniform'? Can you make rings for various bodyparts other than fingers with the 'ring' design? It seems it is fairly easy to see what a specific pattern is intended to be, so some clarification on how far crafters can go when using that pattern would be appreciated.
  
• Rule clarifications: Can we get some clarification on materials or possibly a change in how additonal materials are viewed (like an option to see the exact item that has been added rather than its short noun)? There has been ruby designs with the 'gem' ingredient (when the game has plenty of ruby items), 'crystalline emeralds' with crystal ingredients, and so forth. For consistency's sake, I believe it would be helpful to add something about this either in 'help crafting commodities' or possibly in a hopefully soon-to-be-added 'help crafting rulings'. My personal preference would be that people should pay more gold for jewelry; gems -are- supposed to be expensive.
  
• Add a 'gardening' crafting skill to complement floristry; grow your own trees, bushes, scrubs, flowers, plants, and more!
  
• Update existing crafts with new patterns/recipes more frequently.
• Convert brewing to follow the other crafts' designing system. It is so confusing that it is different from everything else.
  

Before people start raging: I believe that making more restrictive rules or guidelines would be a bad thing, but I actually think it is worse when there is so much ambiguity in the helpfiles that some people have designs rejected for certain reasons when very similar - if not identical - designs get pushed through. At times, it feels like crafter cliques help pushing each other's designs through the queue, and it is sort of disheartening to see designs with four (or more) rejections getting put back in the queue time after time again. It is even more disheartening to see a design rejected four (or more) times when there is no actual fault in the design itself. I propose that the crafting helpfiles get a good, long look at. Modify them to give crafters more freedom while clarifying rules and guidelines - as well as continuously update a helpfile with specific rulings - in order to make the crafting process flow smoother with less hiccups for people that follow the rules and an easily accessed helpfile with rulings to point at when someone tries to break the rules.

In particular:

• Update 'help design guidelines':  "- Is it the correct item type? With few exceptions, the type must match  the exact item you are making. You cannot make a skirt from a dress, or a pipe from a vial." Add the following: "You can make a tongue stud from an earring or a flower bed from a bed, since they adhere to the respective items' types."
• Update 'help design guidelines': "- Some items may have numerous nouns which they can be referred to as, for example books may also be tomes, shortcoats may also be jackets. These are all listed in HELP CRAFTINGREFERENCES. If they can not be found there, they can not be used." Add the following: "As long as the main noun is clearly visible, the design would be acceptable: "wyrmscale armour" made with scalemail and "half-mask" made with mask are both using easily identified nouns, whereas a "cleaning rag" could not be made from a towel.
• It would be really, really useful for the crafting community as a whole if the staff took a more active approach in dealing with various situations that arise in the crafting channel. I think a lot of people have expressed their frustration at some of the things that have been going on recently.

To recap: Give crafters more creative freedom. Reduce overall frustration levels for crafters by updating guidelines and by gathering all the various rulings in a single helpfile. Help improve the crafting community by allocating some of the staff's resources to deal with crafting.

Thanks!

EDIT: Edited for spelling errors.

Xavin

Suggestion for magical arms and armor customizations: make it part of enchanting? That augmentation enchantment is basically worthless these days. Why not give it a function?

Alistaire

Ehh...I'm going to be really kind of angry if I have to choose between making my own equipment and being able to customize it how I want.

Alexina

Forgers -can- customise weapons and armour. It's not completely unreasonable to add magical or supernatural armour/weapon designs to enchanting (which is enchanting items with magical properties). I agree with Xavin.

Alistaire

Alistaire said:

Ehh...I'm going to be really kind of angry if I have to choose between making my own equipment and being able to customize it how I want.

Try reading it again, Alexina. Only being able to do half of it would suck for every single forger who wants magic type items. There is absolutely no reason I should ever have to go to another person to make something I created look how I want. That is how Imperian does it, if you can't afford metalworking, and that is wrong.

Edit: Unless they want to give us the ability to learn multiple crafting skills. I still think it would be stupid to have to use two different skills to customize my sword, but I'd settle for that.

Xavin

They're not going to do that. But why should a non-magical source of creating an item be able to have magical properties? No matter how hot a fire you forge a blade with, you're not going to actually be able to set the blade itself aflame. You're not going to be able to make a supernaturally cold weapon without some magical force. Why not work -with- someone? Is it that unreasonable?

Alexina

Re: Alistaire

The point of mercantile skills is to have to go to other people in order to get what you want. It's the reason why we're moving away from class tradeskills in the first place. If this was implemented when Enchanting becomes a Mercantile skill, there would be nothing at all preventing you from picking it up instead of what you currently have. Having diversity in the mercantile skills seem like a posistive aspect of the system rather than a negative one,

There's three other options that would be pretty neat too: make it possible to customise weapons/armours via the customise command, add customisation 'runes' to attach to weapons or armours, or let us learn multiple mercantile skills.

Xavin

The admin have basically said that multiples are not in the works outside some odd artifacts, like that crafter's logbook or whatever that lets someone switch between them at no loss.

Daingean

Xavin said:

The admin have basically said that multiples are not in the works outside some odd artifacts, like that crafter's logbook or whatever that lets someone switch between them at no loss.

Which, I will say now, is totally retarded.

There's credits to be made, both in selling an artifact that works like polymath and in selling the credits to get / trans the mercantile skills you don't currently have. Not that I agree that mercantile skills should work like multiclass, because that's stupid, but if they insist on the one active mercantile skill at a time - again, stupid - then there should be a way for a person to switch between them / have more than one active via artifacts that -aren't- limited to auctions.

I don't see the upside to limiting access to mercantile skills, at all, whatsoever. There's a brief argument that can be made for interacting with other people, but you can take that argument and stick it right up your nose. I should be able to learn how to tailor and brew beer at once, there's no logic whatsoever behind an inability to do so.

Damonicus

How about a merchant class??

Alexina

Daingean:
You can be a brewer and tailor at the same time as those are crafting skills. Mercantile skills are different altogether (although I am not sure why). I think it -might- be that they make items that most people need for combat (curatives, armorus/weapons, and eventually venoms and enchantments), whereas crafts skills are mainly for roleplay.

I believe that was an old post from way back that said Mercantile skills would eventually benefit cities somehow, but I am not sure if/when/how that would work.

Alistaire

The problem is that other people aren't reliable and it doesn't make sense.

I can be a Templar and an Ascendril, which means wielding all manner of forged goods and wearing fullplate, but also being able to cast spells...but I can't forge and enchant? Very sensible. Really.

Daingean

Alexina said:

Daingean:
You can be a brewer and tailor at the same time as those are crafting skills. Mercantile skills are different altogether (although I am not sure why). I think it -might- be that they make items that most people need for combat (curatives, armorus/weapons, and eventually venoms and enchantments), whereas crafts skills are mainly for roleplay.

I believe that was an old post from way back that said Mercantile skills would eventually benefit cities somehow, but I am not sure if/when/how that would work.

I can use the example of concoctionist and smith just as easily as tailor and brewmaster.

There's zero reason I should have to pick between the two, possible incoming benefits or no. There's no reason whatsoever to choose anything but concoctions unless you're totally choosing your mercantile for the roleplay of it, because of all the mercantiles, concoctions is the single most useful to anyone, at any time.

The idea that my knight character who spent his whole life near a forge suddenly can't use the damn thing just because I, as a player, know that forging has less inherent use to me personally than concoctions does is ridiculous.

Luna

I think magical customization would work out pretty well as the trademastery bonus for forging that was supposed to be implemented back in April :P Add ylemshards, procure sparkly weapon/armour.

Mastema

^ soon™

Areka

Fix the layering system por-fa-vor!

As for magical customization, I actually love that it isn't so common place now. Things stop being special after a while. I would love (and prefer) to see runes fixed, or an appearance rune in itself, where you can attach a description to it (each upgrade allows for another description for another item type?), and it would forcemold what you attach it to, into that style.

Alternatively, go to a special Ylemmyorsomething NPC and go TAKE MY MONEY, throw them the materials and the weapon and they forge it with their magical forging technologies. "Ah, yes, you want something embued with fire and stone, I need twenty red mists, a vial of lava, three ylem crystals, and the weapon you wish me to work with with a draft of what you envision. Now...about my payment."

Aldric

For a haven point (or a few) could we perhaps have the option to add a room property to the haven room that gives it the same properties the clockwork crafting gnome does?

Alexina

Somehow change (or even delete) the embroidery and engraving artifacts, allowing us to put writing into actual designs.

A few suggestions would be:

• Delete them altogether and just let crafters put words in their designs.
• Add a toggle to designs if it has words: 'design 1234 embroidery {yes|no}'. Standard is no, if it is set to 'yes', you will need the embroidery artifact in your inventory when crafting it.
• Add some sort of $(text$) flag in crafting, allowing any embroidered or engraved text to replace this token. As such if the design said: "The ring has been engraved with $(text$) in flowing script around its rim" it would show as "The ring has been engraved with "Forever and for always, your derp" in flowing script around its rim." if it was engraved, and "The ring has been engraved with text in flowing script around its rim" if it wasn't engraved (thank you @Areka for this suggestion).

Raeche

Damonicus said:

How about a merchant class??

I like the idea of non-combat classes to cater to the economically/politically-inclined crowd. Especially with multi-class, that is not an undue restriction that would have people completely helpless. I've also always been enamoured with the idea of a guild that derives its power not from the battlefield, but from the economy.

However, to do that, our economy has to be fixed first. Right now, wealth doesn't translate into power because of how prices have been driven to the ground for many of the tradeskills. Supply outstripping demand means that along with killing monopolies and black markets, the regular economy has been shot to bits. The balance between supply and demand should be struck, not destroyed. Right now, tradeskills are hobbies, or the convenience of making your own items, not so much a way of making money.

Nonetheless, it is on my wishlist. And I do hope there will be such a thing as non-combat classes in future

Xavin

Re: mercantile skills - it's my understanding that the goal is to eventually have venoms/toxicology and enchantments shifted into mercantile skills like reanimation/concoctions and forging.That'll fix some of the problem, because not every syssin/sentinel will be capable of producing venoms and not every mage will be capable of enchanting. It will, likely, also effect the prices of forged goods and, likely to some extent, curatives since not everyone will want to just go with the default. Right now it's possible for quite a few classes to be basically self-sufficient, even more so when you consider multiclass. That will, largely, go away once the mage classes and venom-producing classes get their third skillset/revamp.

Raeche

Alexina said:

Somehow change (or even delete) the embroidery and engraving artifacts, allowing us to put writing into actual designs.

A few suggestions would be:

• Delete them altogether and just let crafters put words in their designs.
• Add a toggle to designs if it has words: 'design 1234 embroidery {yes|no}'. Standard is no, if it is set to 'yes', you will need the embroidery artifact in your inventory when crafting it.
• Add some sort of $(text$) flag in crafting, allowing any embroidered or engraved text to replace this token. As such if the design said: "The ring has been engraved with $(text$) in flowing script around its rim" it would show as "The ring has been engraved with "Forever and for always, your derp" in flowing script around its rim." if it was engraved, and "The ring has been engraved with text in flowing script around its rim" if it wasn't engraved (thank you @Areka for this suggestion).

I always figured that the purpose of engraving and embroidery is to have your mark on an item that is not necessarily created by you. I buy a piece of armour I like, I carve my name on it to indicate it belongs to me. Regardless of who the maker is.

Somewhere down the line, that became conflated with item designs, like somehow engraving/embroidery is the only means by which words should be etched on an item, regardless of whether the words come from a third party, or the maker. The intention behind this rule, I imagine, is so as not to make the engraving/embroidery artifacts obsolete. But they are not. The point is to have people use them to personalise items they did not create, without getting in the way of crafters who, by nature of them being the designers, should have every right to personalise and customise their own creations.

As a matter of lore, it does not make sense that I, as a tailor, can stitch the most intricate design of verdant leaves and gnarly trees, yet somehow require a special tool to sew in words. That's just odd as hell. However, it does make more sense if there was some kind of sacrosanctity and bond between a craft and its maker, that an outsider would require a special tool to alter the appearance of an item - and this alteration is limited to mere addition of words.

I think the maker should very well have free license to have words on their designs. It's third parties who need an additional way to alter the appearance of their store-bought items - and that is the function of the engraving/embroidery artifacts. For this reason, I'm in favour of keeping the artifacts, just doing away with the rule that you need one to put words in your own design.

Haven

The crafting clan needs an overhaul in my opinion and a few of their members need to be cast down from their high horses or at least knocked down a peg considering the horror stories I hear on a frequent basis about the crafters in general.

If it's grammatically correct and there are no spelling errors then the craft should fly so long as they aren't:

• making nonmagical items magical like flaming swords of doom or flying brooms.
• powergaming like "your eyes sparkle and drool oozes down your jaw from how awesomely sexy these pantiesgauntlets of power are"
• breaking Aetolia's general theme and immersion by introducing current or super popular or possibly offensive/religious material from the real world like machine guns, American Flag, Star Trek or Lord of the Rings insignia/memorabilia, Swatiska, Holy Cross, Star of David, etc.

The exceptions would obviously be Admin/Divine introductions as they ultimately define the fantasy world we play in. If Kiyotan wants to craft his own version of something he saw in the Kama Sutra then so what? You don't have to buy the item nor should you reject something like it simply because you dislike it.

I also really, really dislike the dishonest culture brewing in the crafting community as a whole with things like squeezing questionable/blatantly wrong things through the queue. I haven't decided though if it's because the rules are unclear/oppressive to creativity or if it's simply a portion of the playerbase choosing to break the rules. Either way, something should change somewhere.

<< Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Lin

Haven said:

I haven't decided though if it's because the rules are unclear/oppressive to creativity or if it's simply a portion of the playerbase choosing to break the rules.

It's a little of Column A, and a lot of Column B. Many new crafters go into the skill thinking they can just hammer out a custom item and it'll be okay. A lot of frustration ensues as they learn what rules exist, and begin the slow, but painful process of figuring out how to make an item that meets Aetolia's standards. This is fine, and the rules aren't (to me) all that hard to understand. At the end of the day, I'm glad that we have an exacting process to ensure that everything in Aetolia is consistent and of at least middling quality.

That said, there are absolutely cases where crafting approvers will spitefully attack a design here or there, choosing to snipe it the moment it comes into the queue, commenting with the most ridiculously contrived reasons I have ever seen for rejection. You can tell when this is happening, too, because nothing in the same profession ever gets approved or even gains votes, and I've even seen more glaringly incorrect designs go ignored while the most hated one is being picked at.

I don't know what on earth we could do to stop this kind of ridiculous behavior, but it needs to be put to rest. It makes crafting an ugly and unrewarding process.

Raeche

Haven said:

The crafting clan needs an overhaul in my opinion and a few of their members need to be cast down from their high horses or at least knocked down a peg considering the horror stories I hear on a frequent basis about the crafters in general.

If it's grammatically correct and there are no spelling errors then the craft should fly so long as they aren't:

• making nonmagical items magical like flaming swords of doom or flying brooms.
• powergaming like "your eyes sparkle and drool oozes down your jaw from how awesomely sexy these pantiesgauntlets of power are"
• breaking Aetolia's general theme and immersion by introducing current or super popular or possibly offensive/religious material from the real world like machine guns, American Flag, Star Trek or Lord of the Rings insignia/memorabilia, Swatiska, Holy Cross, Star of David, etc.

The exceptions would obviously be Admin/Divine introductions as they ultimately define the fantasy world we play in. If Kiyotan wants to craft his own version of something he saw in the Kama Sutra then so what? You don't have to buy the item nor should you reject something like it simply because you dislike it.

I also really, really dislike the dishonest culture brewing in the crafting community as a whole with things like squeezing questionable/blatantly wrong things through the queue. I haven't decided though if it's because the rules are unclear/oppressive to creativity or if it's simply a portion of the playerbase choosing to break the rules. Either way, something should change somewhere.

<< Just wanted to get that off my chest.

I think it's a mix of problems. There are officious rejections, and there is the collaborative squeezing through of designs, before they get rejected. Sometimes, the latter is a response to the former, but that does not mean it will not lead to abuse in other cases.

This problem will be solved with an active authority figure (Becue). She shouldn't be just whichever immortal is free to be assigned the role, but one with the mind for broader policy. Decisions made by her set a precedent that others abide by; the job is an important one. It is also especially important that she is mature and firm and doesn't not buckle easily under pressure - as I have my reservations about the prevailing culture and mindsets of people in the crafting circle.

It would also help if people remember that the goal is to have fun with each other, not make life difficult to each other just because we can. I'd like very much for that to be the central principle behind the design approval process. 

Xavin

Urgh. It seems to me that craft arguments get started over the dumbest things - like choice of components and whether or not X can be used as Y or if they have to use Z instead. I think people just need to loosen up a little.

Aldric

It's typically the same handful of people, as well. I can understand a desire to see quality items put into the game, but I've seen some over-the-top ridiculous reasons for things being rejected.

Damonicus

We just need a dedicated Becue to lay the smackdown on the rules and the people putting some things through that should never be approved.

Haydyn

Smackdown initiated: http://www.ironrealms.com/game/news/Aetolia/Crafts/702

=============================================================

CRAFTS NEWS #702

Date: 1/3/2013 at 6:02
From: Becue, the Crafter
To : Everyone
Subj: Major Changes

Hidey ho, lovely crafters!


I have a few rather important and potentially earth-shaking 
announcements for you all, after giving many hot-button issues some 
serious thought. Please regard and review, and take note.. Crafting may 
never been the same again! 


On the nature of Tradeskills - -
---------------------------------

An oft-repeated issue with Tradeskills revolves around the topic of the 
individual tradeskills and appropriate materials. After much discussion,
it has been decided that each Tradeskill's main draw, or appeal, is to 
have access to the unique variety of patterns it unlocks for the 
crafter, not necessarily because they wish to work with a specific 
material. We feel this is what captures the essence of being creative in
Aetolia - to give our most creative individuals the artistic freedom to 
make wondrous things. 

What does this mean? Woodcraft items should not be restricted to wood or
wood-related materials alone. Rather, a crafter seeks out Woodcrafting 
in order to make vials, coffins, parasols, et cetera. Naturally, common 
sense should still reign. You should not be putting entire brooches on 
dresses, and thereby defeat the point of a Jewelcraft 'brooch' item. You
should not be making beds from impractical materials such as white 
fluffy clouds. What this simply means is that you should now feel free 
to make a Woodcraft vial out of bone, or a Floristry bouquet out of dead
skulls. 

This also means that several duplicate patterns have been phased out (or
will be). Existing patterns should still retain their functionality. On 
a going-forward basis, each Tradeskill should be valued for the unique 
patterns it brings, not necessarily the sum of its parts. 


On Brewing - -
---------------

Yes, we are aware that it is cumbersome. Yes, it will be completely 
overhauled soon. 


On the inclusion of words in designs - -
-----------------------------------------

Brace yourself - from on high does this next change come!

Text may now be included on ALL designs, where it makes sense. As 
always, use your judgment (writing out a sonnet on a cupcake won't fly, 
for example). This guideline has been updated in HELP DESIGN GUIDELINES,
as follows: 

- All designs should be in English. There is a 50 character limit to 
words embroidered/etched/carved/etc. into items. These words MUST
be in quotation marks.

What does this mean for the embroidery needle, quill, et cetera? 
Naturally, these items will still retain the ability to add text to 
items not crafted by their own hand, as they always have. In addition to
this, though, these artifacts will be receiving an upgrade in their 
functionality that should give these items a unique appeal. Be on the 
lookout for an ANNOUNCE post very soon with these changes. 


On crafting guidelines, rulings, permissions, et cetera - - 
------------------------------------------------------------

Over the many, many years of the Crafter's Guild and its history, there 
have been rulings and guidelines thrown about, potentially to the 
confusion of many who must dig back deep into the Crafts post for 
reference material. This will no longer be. Every guideline, for both 
designing and approving, should be located in HELP DESIGN GUIDELINES and
HELP DESIGN APPROVAL. 

Yes, this may mean that previous rulings and decisions are now 
overturned. Going forward, your source should stem from these two help 
scrolls. As always, if you have need of clarification on a topic, feel 
free to message Me to have these guidelines tweaked if necessary. 

That being said, I will call to attention a few new issues:

- Extensive liberties should not be taken with designs, and they should
more or less be similar in shape of the basic design. For example, you 
cannot make 'flower beds' out of 'beds'. It should just be a bed.

- The base item type should be in the appearance, dropped, and examined
descriptions. With the exception of alternate nouns as listed in HELP
CRAFTING REFERENCES, this base item type should not be altered, 
hyphenated, 
or disguised by any means.


On behavior, decorum, and general atmosphere - - 
-------------------------------------------------

It merits saying here that there have been numerous 'hate feuds' 
occurring using the crafting approval system as a medium that must come 
to an end. Your role as an approver is not to mold Aetolia "as you feel 
it should be" - that responsibility falls to the creators of Aetolia. As
a player approver, you are volunteering your time as a quality control 
officer to ensure that the basic requirements of player-created designs 
fall within our guidelines. Nitpicking over pedantic and essentially 
trivial turns of phrase and wording is unpleasant to all parties 
involved, and the hostile space it has created as a result has come to 
the attention of the administration. 

Insults, profanity, and otherwise abusive behavior conducted via the 
comments of a design will be extremely frowned upon, and offenders can 
and will have their design submission and approval privileges revoked. 

In the event that a design stirs a conflict (the recent Syndicate flag 
comes to mind) which cannot be resolved, the creator of the design 
should message Me regarding the issue and NOT submit the design where it
might be "stealth-approved." 



Whew! That was quite a bit of information to pass along. All of this 
(and more) can be found in HELP DESIGN APPROVAL and HELP DESIGN 
GUIDELINES, which will likely be tweaked and changed as helpful 
suggestions are made. Hopefully, these changes will assist in some of 
the recent issues surrounding the Crafting system, and make for a more 
pleasurable experience by all. 

Remember! We're all here to have fun and enjoy flexing our imaginations.
Any comments, suggestions, or flattering compliments can be sent to Me 
by message. 

- Becue

Penned by my hand on the 23rd of Arios, in the year 380 MA.

=============================================================

I may have squealed like an excited little school girl at some of these new/proposed changes... 

Sarita

I don't know if this has come up before anywhere, but some of you might have just seen an announcement about crafting guidelines that went to the news in the crafter's guild. If a lot of important things are going there, could we possibly have the 20,000 gold cost to join be looked at, and maybe just let everyone have access to that newsboard as soon as they buy their first crafting license? If we really still need that goldsink, maybe people who want to be able to approve designs can pay that fee, but as things are now, it seems silly to have to pay on top of getting the license just to be sure we have full access to all the rulings and things pertaining to using the license, or to have to rely on others to pass the information on through the crafter's clan which still might not have all the crafters in it.