Announce post #3278: Shouting & Language

Iesid

Iesid said:

I'm going to briefly piggyback off of this thread to discuss something near and dear to me:

While tensions are very high, please remember that there's other people behind these keyboards and characters and faces.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

Almol said:

this discussion was literally spawned by Iesid's passive aggressive comment.

If you read passive aggression from me reminding everyone that there are humans behind every PC, that's a you problem.

Not everything is about you.

Not everything is a veiled insult.

Tetchta

I'll be honest, it really felt like it was responding to something specific. General reminders are always helpful, but your initial comment really felt like it was at least galvanized by something.

Almol

Benedicto said:

Just to clarify, the raid in Bloodloch was my fault.

I came back yesterday and was super jacked and I asked everyone to death and glory in Loch with me as a welcome back present.

To reiterate what's been said by a few people throughout this thread - I'm loving the energy and the activity/engagement from what I've seen so far though I'm not willing to be drawn in on the rest of this conversation as I've not been involved in any of these discussions.

However, to go back to the post at the start of this thread, @Alela should definitely be banned from shouting about peoples dead mothers.

it was a boss move and i definitely loved it. nothing to apologize for

Eliadon

I think y'all are looking the wrong way. We need to look back at to who started this war.

It was the admin by placing a sand-generator in a place that Duiran cared about.

CHECKMATE

Almol

Eliadon said:

I think y'all are looking the wrong way. We need to look back at to who started this war.

It was the admin by placing a sand-generator in a place that Duiran cared about.

CHECKMATE

100%. they didn't even tell us it would do that lol

Iesid said:

Iesid said:

I'm going to briefly piggyback off of this thread to discuss something near and dear to me:

While tensions are very high, please remember that there's other people behind these keyboards and characters and faces.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

Almol said:

this discussion was literally spawned by Iesid's passive aggressive comment.

If you read passive aggression from me reminding everyone that there are humans behind every PC, that's a you problem.

Not everything is about you.

Not everything is a veiled insult.

I didn't take it personal, I just thought it was ridiculous coming from you.

Alela

Aukan

Let's all just get together and share some smoke or some drinks.

Tetchta

when bene raids bloodloch

Sryaen

Bulrok said:

Czcibor said:

Has Spirit escalated? Hell yea we have.

A.) But let’s not make this out to be Spirit is the big bad bully who is escalating for no reason.

B.) A good portion of the Spirit army were galvanised by Nipsy throwing himself at our guards for hours.

C.) We were galvanised by the blockades outside our orgs.

D.) We were galvanised by the, from our character’s perspective, betrayal of Bamathis.

E.) We are galvanised by constantly being told both IC and OOC that we are losing this war.

F.) We are far past the point where it matters who escalated because nobody has clean hands here.

G.) And to be quite honest? A lot of how this may look from the other side comes down to the simple fact that yes, right now Spirit is outnumbering Shadow most times of the day.

But when we have no mechanical objective how are we supposed to win this war? We have shown that we can raid Bloodloch during primetime when you have a good number of defenders sitting at the gates. We have shown we can clear whatever blockades you put up. We have shown we can dust all your shrines. We have shown we can respond to your ganks with more of our own.

Most of us don’t want to escalate, but we have been shown and told that what we have been doing is not enough, so now even many of the anti-war crowd are galvanised.

C.) Yeah if anything about this war is sus it's that blockade. The room in question would literally only be hit if someone from Enorian was shipping stuff to Duiran or vice versa. Sounds like a set up if you want the gods honest truth. Here's a map over view look. To the south is Duiran. To the northeast is Kalydian. No other exits, unless the caravan traders have a custom wings?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/661214304808468484/920438843071688775/unknown.png

Nobody shipped anything. I'd heard ICly about the blockade and went immediately to manually order our caravans to head out rather than wait for the auto timer to tick down, because it was like 2 a.m. PST and there wasn't anyone around to escort if caravan shenanigans flared up. I do think the blockade thing was 100% an accident and was not at all intentional, but it is what it is and here we are.

FTR, I suggested we (among the other Heralds) talk to Elene about whether or not it was a deliberate action. But by the time I'd woken up, there were posts to Enorian saying the Heralds all unanimously voted for war. Even if Sryaen had voted no, he would've been in the minority and we'd have gone to war anyways. Which I'm fine with, because with how 2 Spirit Divine have been pushing the tether to take a harder stance on things, it was only a matter of time before this powderkeg exploded.

Since I've come back to playing, I've tried to do my part to keep my orgs out of pointless wars because as I'm sure some of you can remember back to Ye Olden Days, it just becomes an absolute slog. Nothing's changed since then. We have Discord now instead of IRC and AIM to coordinate and talk shit about people behind their backs. The best thing I've done this entire war has been to minimize my own personal level of OOC chatter with people from the opposing tether. Because I am friends with some of you and the War system sucks and being engaged in 24/7 nearly endless PVP is stressful and exhausting, so I don't want to have to argue my character's actions to anyone on an OOC level.

I think this conflict is great otherwise, in terms of the reasons behind escalating. Spirit really hasn't rallied around anything like this in any of my recent time playing, so I am living for it. I hope this fire stays lit under our asses. Up until now, I feel Spirit has been INCREDIBLY prone to capitulating at the first sign of aggression from Shadow tether. At this point it doesn't really matter who escalated what or who swung first - we in this. Until the bitter end. My only gripe is that both sides seem content to have this go on forever, because Aetolians are (myself included) far too proud to ever want to be the one to back down first. While great in theory, this type of endless warfare just isn't sustainable for any of us. I would like to see an end to this war hopefully before Christmas or at the very least by the New Year if I'm being more realistic.

Re: @Alela - I actually just discussed this yesterday about the times Shadow escalated. There was the narrowly avoided war with Enorian when we moved troops into Jaru while Usham was murdering villagers there and Rhyot was the Keeper. Then the shrine conflict, which could have been avoided 100% if Ayukazi had just asked Ethne's order to deconstruct shrines in BL territories, rather than take it upon herself to start dusting them. I think the reason for Spirit's tenacity in this war is because they/we/Duiran especially, is tired of being backed into a corner constantly by the usual aggressor. And good for them/we/us. I hope it plays out in our favor.

Rasani

I'll say this: The idea that this was "a set up" to get involved with a war that we literally had people ALREADY wanting to be involved with is laughable. We would've just, y'know, gotten involved in the war. We didn't need to invite some reason to do it, y'all were already at war with our allies.

As far as Enorian is concerned, there was a blockade on our goods so we attacked. My understanding is people have ALREADY said "yeah oops our bad" but who cares? People are having fun, and now it's moved from "blockade" to "someone killed our citizens" which is a much bigger reason to be at war.

Tetchta

Rasani said:

I'll say this: The idea that this was "a set up" to get involved with a war that we literally had people ALREADY wanting to be involved with is laughable. We would've just, y'know, gotten involved in the war. We didn't need to invite some reason to do it, y'all were already at war with our allies.

As far as Enorian is concerned, there was a blockade on our goods so we attacked. My understanding is people have ALREADY said "yeah oops our bad" but who cares? People are having fun, and now it's moved from "blockade" to "someone killed our citizens" which is a much bigger reason to be at war.

Honestly I think the vibe is less "It was set up" and more "man that was the flimsiest justification ever" hahahaha. Not that I mind, it was kinda funny. "DID U HEAR THAT GUY? HE SAID HE LIKES PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA. OATHBREAKER. GETTIM"

Benedicto

Tetchta said:

when bene raids bloodloch

Inaccurate. The guy has a look of regret on his face.

Sryaen

Tetchta said:

Rasani said:

I'll say this: The idea that this was "a set up" to get involved with a war that we literally had people ALREADY wanting to be involved with is laughable. We would've just, y'know, gotten involved in the war. We didn't need to invite some reason to do it, y'all were already at war with our allies.

As far as Enorian is concerned, there was a blockade on our goods so we attacked. My understanding is people have ALREADY said "yeah oops our bad" but who cares? People are having fun, and now it's moved from "blockade" to "someone killed our citizens" which is a much bigger reason to be at war.

Honestly I think the vibe is less "It was set up" and more "man that was the flimsiest justification ever" hahahaha. Not that I mind, it was kinda funny. "DID U HEAR THAT GUY? HE SAID HE LIKES PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA. OATHBREAKER. GETTIM"

Tbh, I think it was more that some of the leaders (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) were like "If the roles were reversed and Enorian screwed up and accidentally blockaded BL, do you think they'd be willing to let it slide?"

I'm guessing the answer was no. Flimsy or not, here we are. And I think a lot of the 'Strength in Slaughter', 'May we never know peace', 'For Sapience', and perceived bullying from Shadow over the past however many weeks/months/years played into this decision to go to war. I could be WAY off the mark though, but that's just how it felt to me.

Nipsy

When do Kadvar, Cariv, and Tralendar come back so we can go whole hog to celebrate.

Also welcome back fishman @Benedicto

Tetchta

Benedicto said:

Inaccurate. The guy has a look of regret on his face.

Tetchta

Sryaen said:

Tbh, I think it was more that some of the leaders (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) were like "If the roles were reversed and Enorian screwed up and accidentally blockaded BL, do you think they'd be willing to let it slide?"

I'm guessing the answer was no. Flimsy or not, here we are. And I think a lot of the 'Strength in Slaughter', 'May we never know peace', 'For Sapience', and perceived bullying from Shadow over the past however many weeks/months/years played into this decision to go to war. I could be WAY off the mark though, but that's just how it felt to me.

I hope what I wrote didn't come off as me thinking it was a bad thing or something you needed to justify in any way OOC, tbh. I have no idea what would happen in a role reversal, but honestly I don't care if a city wants to go to war over someone littering too close to the gates. Go for it. It'd be both hilarious, petty, and awesome.

Elene

Sryaen said:

I'll say this: The idea that this was "a set up" to get involved with a war that we literally had people ALREADY wanting to be involved with is laughable. We would've just, y'know, gotten involved in the war. We didn't need to invite some reason to do it, y'all were already at war with our allies. As far as Enorian is concerned, there was a blockade on our goods so we attacked. My understanding is people have ALREADY said "yeah oops our bad" but who cares? People are having fun, and now it's moved from "blockade" to "someone killed our citizens" which is a much bigger reason to be at war.

Honestly I think the vibe is less "It was set up" and more "man that was the flimsiest justification ever" hahahaha. Not that I mind, it was kinda funny. "DID U HEAR THAT GUY? HE SAID HE LIKES PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA. OATHBREAKER. GETTIM"

Tbh, I think it was more that some of the leaders (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) were like "If the roles were reversed and Enorian screwed up and accidentally blockaded BL, do you think they'd be willing to let it slide?" I'm guessing the answer was no. Flimsy or not, here we are. And I think a lot of the 'Strength in Slaughter', 'May we never know peace', 'For Sapience', and perceived bullying from Shadow over the past however many weeks/months/years played into this decision to go to war. I could be WAY off the mark though, but that's just how it felt to me.

Here's the thing. I'm not unreasonable, especially if you tell me, "Hey man, we were trying to fortify both ends of Spinesreach to win the war but your caravan got caught in the mess."

This is also the whole reason why Kalena and I had an initial discussion, posted things about an agreement and unenemied people who were enemied for what was misunderstanding about a situation to begin with, especially because I know OOCly that wars will be very hard to conclude because terms are the worse thing to agree upon (across opposing tethers).

Bulrok

Sryaen said:

Nobody shipped anything. I'd heard ICly about the blockade and went immediately to manually order our caravans to head out rather than wait for the auto timer to tick down, because it was like 2 a.m. PST and there wasn't anyone around to escort if caravan shenanigans flared up. I do think the blockade thing was 100% an accident and was not at all intentional, but it is what it is and here we are.

Somebody had to have shipped something or the map pathing system is incredibly stupid. No, it was not intentional that we blockaded Enorian. We're not only fine with it, we knew that for one reason or another Enorian would join in the war at the first opportunity. Again, that's not like some SLANDEROUS accusation about how you guys can't wait to 2v1 poor ole bloodloch cause ur a bunch of playground bullies - It was clear IC when IC discussions were had about IC STUFF. And, we're fine with it!

Though, Czcibor using it as an excuse to galvanize when people knew it was accidental...sus

Caitria

Ya'll making me sign into forum for this.

When Kalena, Valorie and Caitria were discussing war, and what would trigger bringing Enorian in against Bloodloch, there was a list of things that were talked about.

That list included moving troops, pillaging the caravans, and a whole slew of things that were considered 'hostile actions'.

So, be me. I log in usual time and find that Duiran's mines are blockaded with a group of horrors one SW of our mine entry. I think, "Okay they want to do this, I'll just come back later with troops and clear the blockade." At this point in time, only our mine caravan was blockaded (this is important)

Four hours later, I am back in, and Valorie is with me. I go to take out those horrors.

No horrors.

Okay. I run back to check the caravan list. Instead of just the mine route being blockaded, everything is now. Farm. Mine, and Enorian's mine caravan.

I go "Well unicorns, I wonder if they meant to do that."

Cait walks the caravan lines, finds the blockade, gets the horrors, removes the blockade. She messages all the Heralds and Kalena and goes "So, they blocked your caravan. Based on what we all talked about IC, and agreed two-three times, is this enough for you."

Show proof in various formats of the blockade.

The thing ya'll don't realize is how production works. You can ship anytime during the season, and it will not arrive until a) it's normal time which can be between 4-7 days after the season ended, or b) you request the caravan. Nobody requested a caravan until after the blockade was cleared out, and to prevent another blockade being set up.

The season ran from November 26 - December 7th. At this time, most people who are into production would have already hit "Ship to CITY" by the 8th, so as not to lose the window on the caravan. Being that this was the Enorian caravan, headed to us to use our facilities, and Enorian actually receives their caravans 48 hours before we do, I'm about 90% confident this was when the caravan was shipped out.

The blockaded happened on the 10th heading into the 11th, with under 24hrs on caravan arrival. Nobody would wait that long to ship out, especially to shared facilities because Enorian gets their shipment 48hours before we do (repeated from above to really drive this home). I ship the moment I have enough to bundle, and ship continuously through the season, knowing I won't 'receive' it until the caravan leaves. If I want my ore sooner, I ship to Enorian, if I want it later, I ship to Duiran.

I would love to know how we can go back in time, and ask Enorian to ship to us, before the war was even a blip on anyone's radar.

Yes, it was an OOC accident, but it was something that was discussed with a whole slew of other 'war-esque' activities.


/Ends production rant

Sryaen

Here's the thing. I'm not unreasonable.

@Elene I guess we'll never know in this instance. From the perspective of a Spirit player, BL has never been reasonable as an organization; certain players within Bloodloch, sure - acting on behalf of their own orgs, like I was surprised to have negotiated an end to stuff with Mjoll during the shrine war a few months ago. They want everyone to know they're the toughest kid on the playground. So it would not have surprised me if Eno or Dui slipped up that BL's answer would've been that the org needed to give up their lunch money or get beat up after school.

edit: also aaaaaaaaaaaaa apparently idk how to change quotes to only respond to a single snippet

Bulrok

Oof I'm not getting into the forum RP with any of y'all. Shipped to/from whatever is what I said and what I meant. And according to Cait, I'm /right/.

I did not say that y'all did it on purpose. If y'all are reading that implication, then in the words of Iesid, that's a you problem.

Caitria

Well yeah. Spinesreach and Bloodloch share facilities, so do Enorian and Duiran. I'm not sure how this is a big 'gotchu' moment. That caravan has been shipping every season since mining began. It wasn't shipped to unicorn's you all up. Nobody forced anybody to place the blockade where it was.

And this whole explanation was for the people who were OOC claiming someone snuck in and shipped on purpose to start the war. Mechanically, it's incredibly unlikely. Like a 1% chance that for some reason, this "season" nobody would ship to Duiran.

Elene

It's a moot point now, I agree.

Enjoy the conflict and politics for now, though! It has allowed the pursuit of PK beyond the borders of lessers and orrerys, and it's crazy to see how much everyone has been pumped up to explore the freedom of what freeform PK means. Whether the excitement will die down or turn into weariness is another bridge to cross when we get there, I suppose.

Nipsy

All in all, let's be excited, let's test the waters, let's see what people do and don't like.

The more variables we test, the easier it will be to develop what can be engaging and what can't when actual rules and systems are created.
It's not that scary, if you look at it from the right perspectives. I think we all want great content in our community, and genuinely I love this shift and think new players would also.

The MUD community is -not- that big, so better to be all encompassing than niche.

Czcienn

Bulrok said:

Though, Czcibor using it as an excuse to galvanize when people knew it was accidental...sus

I'm talking about the blockades on the road outside our city.

Bulrok

What blockade outside of Enorian?

Czcienn

The ones where you camp a couple rooms out of Enorian and kill anyone you manage to lure out or are just passing through?

Bulrok

Oh those yeah. I thought you meant caravan blockades and I was mega confused.

Wjoltyr

Wow, thanks for all this reading. Between amide proton transfer imaging and photon counting in computed tomography, I did not have enough bedtime reading. 

I literally have nothing to add other than I thought we were doing a lesser, turns out we were raiding, and then just frickin' rolled with it for that night. @Kalena, @Eaku, and @Ayastia get props for engaging with me and I appreciate that! I legit think Ayastia interacted with me due to a mistell, but who else has a W name? And who does "tell W Are you behaving?" So yeah. I'm having fun, are you having fun? 

I'm feeling inspired to cartoon again. Also, also, my 5 year old just yelled at me to, "get out on the battlefield and die you idiot". While reading this thread. So there's that.

Almol

Wjoltyr said:

Wow, thanks for all this reading. Between amide proton transfer imaging and photon counting in computed tomography, I did not have enough bedtime reading. 

I literally have nothing to add other than I thought we were doing a lesser, turns out we were raiding, and then just frickin' rolled with it for that night. @Kalena, @Eaku, and @Ayastia get props for engaging with me and I appreciate that! I legit think Ayastia interacted with me due to a mistell, but who else has a W name? And who does "tell W Are you behaving?" So yeah. I'm having fun, are you having fun? 

I'm feeling inspired to cartoon again. Also, also, my 5 year old just yelled at me to, "get out on the battlefield and die you idiot". While reading this thread. So there's that.

wt are you behaving, but you forget the t