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However, the other side acted I think before we got to that point of consideration, and I think people misconstrue griefing here too much. Creativity in conflict to cripple an opponent and secure victory in an objectiveless war is not griefing, it might be griefy behavior, however it is not in essence griefing.
Griefing would be camping the tear and killing on site, occupying a city with a large force for upwards of 13 hours. Killing people on login. That's griefing.
Engaging in an ongoing war that there are means to opt out of, is not necessarily griefing.
If it is that person and that conversation @Xavin - I'll admit to the words "griefy" coming out of my mouth, but the context really matters.
However, that being said, we also had a very constructive discussion appended to that on conflict. Regarding mechanics, shrine irrelevance, and for me to be congnizant of other peoples feelings in war and how my actions will reflect, which admittedly I discussed about sensitive subjects, (I.E. Guards) and how folks can get fired up about them. We also discussed what I have resolved myself to lose, if certain people asked my character to stop, I would (Gods who might ask them to stop, he would)
Overall just looking forward to see what comes of all this.
But don't beat around the bush and say everything but what it is.
Ultimately if someone doesn't have the full context they can't make a full judgement. But I only saw a small part of @Nipsy's conversation so I didn't have any context that suggested a constructive conversation was had.
Alot of that discussion referenced the party I was speaking to and something that was said to you directly in a discord I have since left, not because of any issues in that discord, but because I don't want there to be issues in a primarily spirit discord because me as a player in the shadow tether will likely do some unicorns which might aggravate or make tensions between the parties there. I have remained talking to people privately and everyone thus far has had reasonable statements, or even admittedly said they have had moments themselves, but none of us are actively trying to ruin anything for anyone.
Y'all are awesome people, I have no issues with anyone OOC, but I also have learned my personal lessons on perpetuating drama. Conversations between X and Y during times of conflict, don't necessarily mean that Z is going to happen, and until that is being placed as an active encouragement or action IC, its a non issue. Anyone who knows me knows I can get fired up, but I have been actively pursuing keeping things healthy IC, even when it involves me personally doing things against another party.
Don't create drama unless there is actual drama.
That being said, party meant isn't...exceptionally healthy I am sure.
Reading the actions of our opponents charitably is going to go a long way while we work toward whatever conclusions come from this, and as long as everyone is constantly reassessing and communicating, I don't see any reason why this can't be fun, and remain fun, for everyone.
If I had one real word of advice, it'd be: make sure you're doing what you're doing what you're doing for the right reasons. If you're logging on out of spite or anger or obligation or to try to ruin someone's day, just consider not. There's other things you can do, and honestly, one body or even five not being online during this isn't going to spell doom for anybody, nor probably matter all that much in the long run.
Always assume ignorance before stupidity, and stupidity before malice.
That is all, have fun!
But let’s not make this out to be Spirit is the big bad bully who is escalating for no reason.
A good portion of the Spirit army were galvanised by Nipsy throwing himself at our guards for hours.
We were galvanised by the blockades outside our orgs.
We were galvanised by the, from our character’s perspective, betrayal of Bamathis.
We are galvanised by constantly being told both IC and OOC that we are losing this war.
We are far past the point where it matters who escalated because nobody has clean hands here.
And to be quite honest? A lot of how this may look from the other side comes down to the simple fact that yes, right now Spirit is outnumbering Shadow most times of the day.
But when we have no mechanical objective how are we supposed to win this war? We have shown that we can raid Bloodloch during primetime when you have a good number of defenders sitting at the gates. We have shown we can clear whatever blockades you put up. We have shown we can dust all your shrines. We have shown we can respond to your ganks with more of our own.
Most of us don’t want to escalate, but we have been shown and told that what we have been doing is not enough, so now even many of the anti-war crowd are galvanised.
it seems like we're all agreed that Spirit has raised the ante numerous times. however, when Shadow responds in kind, we're treated to posts about behaving ourselves, both-sides-isms, remembering there are people on the other side of the screen. i'll be honest - this is a behavior that i do experience as bullying. coming here to tell us off for supposed toxicity, whether said toxicity occurred in public or private, whether it occurred in game or out, only puts a chill on all of our actions. it frames our actual responses as toxic, even when those responses are the same things you introduced to the conflict. if it's okay for you to escalate with XYZ, then it's okay for us to respond with the same XYZ. full stop.
tl;dr nobody cares that you escalated. people in this thread need to stop trying to browbeat us for meeting the escalation. no more TEDx talks. just play the unicorns game.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
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Alela's Affirmations
Now back to the war, is it progressing badly? I don't know honestly. I've only casually participated after work in the past few days. It looked decent. I got jumped a few times while trying to do the daily chores, as expected. But I also joined a few attempts to get rid of some troops and/or city defenses. And that's all I've seen. I don't think anyone is actively griefing anyone out of the game, by their actions, as far as I am aware. This war so far is making the game a lot more vibrant and that's always better than the alternative. I'd rather see 300 kills in kilstats over 20 combined kills in a whole week, we've been there before.
One thing though, I'm not personally a fan of how objectiveless/free of mechanical consequence this whole thing is. You can die 90 times over, and still claim your character "won", because death means nothing in this game, by design. You aren't locked out of repeating what you just did 30 seconds ago, you don't lose your gear/investments, the only thing you lose (exp) only really matters to people who are either newbies or people who are trying to get to lvl 200. That is problematic to me. And this design does make the whole thing about stamina, unless we are mature enough to just handshake and admit defeat IC. There's absolutely no reason to just give up, other than you know being camped whole day and not being able to do any of your activities within the game. (Which is only a problem for people whose top if not only priority in the game isn't PvP to begin with. I know this, because mine is PvP, hi.) This design does incentivize, the objective that doesn't exist originally in the conflict to manifest a new one and that is making sure the other side's engagements levels to drop. And that's not healthy, but it's the reality of it and I can't really hate the player, when I can just hate the game.
That being said, that's just my long term vision of this whole thing. I don't think we're anywhere close to that being a thing, but in time we can be. And I'd personally be just fine with however it resolves.
Anyway, funniest sentence I've ever read on this website aside, I've never seen anything but our community improve from transparency. Logs remove confusion and dispel passive aggression that hinges on dishonesty/people being afraid to bring receipts. Logs have brought culpability to people who only were ever aided by their toxcity being kept under wraps. I honestly can't think of a single time where a log was leaked and (most important part) talked about by people (especially in the open) where the outcome wasn't a net gain for everybody who plays the game. Assume every web is public (because it is). Assume every clan isn't very private (it isn't). Assume discord leaks like a seive (it does). The only people who really ever stand to gain by toxic behavior being covered up are the types of people who perpetuate toxic behavior. Shaming people for being the ones to bring this to the forefront is extremely silly; just because they force us all to have uncomfortable conversations from time-to-time that we'd rather not have doesn't mean that the outcome from those conversations isn't good. I've never understood how "the leakers are the bad people" when usually the stuff they leak is some truly abhorent stuff is ever something someone can try to argue with a straight face.
If your venting is making you look like a terrible person, reconsider how you vent.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
(Web): Abhorash has left your web.
Alela's Affirmations
We were just responding to the escalation (from our perspective) with actions in the game rather than posting about them in this thread.
B.) Dunno what relevancy this is besides to make your argument seem more justified? Cool?
C.) Yeah if anything about this war is sus it's that blockade. The room in question would literally only be hit if someone from Enorian was shipping stuff to Duiran or vice versa. Sounds like a set up if you want the gods honest truth. Here's a map over view look. To the south is Duiran. To the northeast is Kalydian. No other exits, unless the caravan traders have a custom wings?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/661214304808468484/920438843071688775/unknown.png
D.) Again, not sure the relevancy. You guys don't have to justify your actions. We're cool with it.
E.) Who's doing this?
F.) Definitely have dirty hands. But again not sure the relevancy. Fact of the matter is, by your own admission, Spirit escalated, not Shadow. We're not calling you bullies though. It was implied that we were. See my response to point A.
G.) Yeah, but we're cool with it. Just remember to keep that same energy when it shifts back to Shadows favor. The. Exact. Same. Energy.
If you don't want to escalate, then why do you keep doing it? Y'all started a conflict that has 0 mechanical end. Yes, YOU GUYS started it. I didn't march troops to the monolith. I didn't fortify troops there. Haern's order used Duiran's troops to 'hold' the monolith. What retaliation was there from an IC standpoint? It wasn't until what, /yesterday/ that terms of ending the war were presented? If y'all are tired then give up. We didn't start this, there isn't a mechanical lose button, and we're having fun. If the thought of further escalation and that retaliation is unfun to you, then *you* give up.
Y'all keep ignoring everything we're saying in favor of manipulating a conversation into us accusing you guys of being jerks. I made the implication only in face of someone vague booking drama. Don't be a coward, post your receipts, or don't post at all. There is 0 reason to slander anyone without proof, and there is 0 reason to make it so vague that we have to explode a thread up to get some damned clarification.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
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Alela's Affirmations
this discussion was literally spawned by Iesid's passive aggressive comment.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
(Web): Abhorash has left your web.
Alela's Affirmations
I came back yesterday and was super jacked and I asked everyone to death and glory in Loch with me as a welcome back present.
To reiterate what's been said by a few people throughout this thread - I'm loving the energy and the activity/engagement from what I've seen so far though I'm not willing to be drawn in on the rest of this conversation as I've not been involved in any of these discussions.
However, to go back to the post at the start of this thread, @Alela should definitely be banned from shouting about peoples dead mothers.
also:
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
(Web): Abhorash has left your web.
Alela's Affirmations