Announce post #3278: Shouting & Language

Autoposter

12/11/2021 at 2:50
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
Shouting & Language

Hi folks,

I know things are getting heated IC with the current wars unfolding and that there's a lot of shouting back and forth going on right now - that's great, don't stop!

We've been pretty lenient with the mild cursing / crass language so far but consider this a reminder to look at HELP LANGUAGE RULES.

If you can't keep it at least semi mature then we're going to have to start cracking down on it and that's not fun for anyone.

Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 25th of Khepary, in the year 499 MA.

Iesid

I'm going to briefly piggyback off of this thread to discuss something near and dear to me:

Autoposter said:

12/11/2021 at 2:50
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
Shouting & Language

Hi folks,

I know things are getting heated IC with the current wars unfolding and that there's a lot of shouting back and forth going on right now

While tensions are very high, please remember that there's other people behind these keyboards and characters and faces.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

Tetchta

Is this referencing something specific? Or just a general note?

Elene

People should really get creative with their insults. Nowadays, just using any old 4-lettered profanity is boring. I want to call another a tumor-infested waste of space, or a poop shovel, or a coconut-headed Saravhin.

That being said,

The Duiran Council has placed a bounty upon your head for 200000 gold. Reason: Raiding.

Holy Pit in the tree of Yggdrasil, that's a lot of bounty gold offered for raiding, when I don't think we even equalized the number of guard deaths we had too. Sniff.

Tetchta

tbh I'm living for these crazy high bounties-- they make me wanna get into PK something fierce

Alela

Edit: yeah, okay, this wasn't constructive, sorry.

Almol

Iesid said:

I'm going to briefly piggyback off of this thread to discuss something near and dear to me:

Autoposter said:

12/11/2021 at 2:50
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
Shouting & Language

Hi folks,

I know things are getting heated IC with the current wars unfolding and that there's a lot of shouting back and forth going on right now

While tensions are very high, please remember that there's other people behind these keyboards and characters and faces.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

Why is raiding worse than mass defiling?

I think there's been a lot of escalation from spirit tether, some by you specifically, so I think this is an interesting take.

Rasani

I can't speak to the defiling, but the raiding of BL didn't start until we had constant raids for about three to five hours.

Almol

One guy dying to guards a million times is hardly raiding but ok.

Edit:
Nipsy killed 13 guards.
Spirit raiders killed 86.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

Rasani

Almol said:

One guy dying to guards a million times is hardly raiding but ok.

Edit:
Nipsy killed 13 guards.
Spirit raiders killed 86.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

We have the logs, actually. It was about 35 in Enorian, though other orgs would have to speak to how many of theirs he'd killed. While I have word he did the same to some order temples, I only have Enorian's logs.

I should specify, this isn't to act like Enorian didn't escalate. We did. But it didn't come from nowhere. The bounties we have are totally just.

Naos

Iesid said:

I'm going to briefly piggyback off of this thread to discuss something near and dear to me:

Autoposter said:

12/11/2021 at 2:50
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
Shouting & Language

Hi folks,

I know things are getting heated IC with the current wars unfolding and that there's a lot of shouting back and forth going on right now

While tensions are very high, please remember that there's other people behind these keyboards and characters and faces.

If your plan is to escalate your griefing in hopes that ruining people's play experience is your path to victory, you need to step back and re-evaluate why you play this game. This goes for both sides.

I feel this in my bones man. I logged on for the first time in, man, I want to say almost a year - where I actually walked around, didn't log in/rm/rn/qq - and I had no idea that while I was walking around the Ithmias on my phone I would be gangbanged by two to four people just because I'm in the militia. I had zero idea being in the militia was cause enough to even get ganked that hard, either.

I'm not narcissistic enough to think I'm popular or well-known by any means, but maybe just enough to know that there were a few of you there that know enough to know I haven't actually been around in a long, long time. That I wasn't curing. And man, I still got killed. And I got a, 'sucks shit' for my troubles.

I played one hell of an asshole in my time, and I'll promise you on anything that I wouldn't do that if the situation was reversed.

edited to make sure my numbers were right.

Tetchta

Naos said:

I had no idea that while I was walking around the Ithmias on my phone I would be gangbanged by two to four people just because I'm in the militia. I had zero idea being in the militia was cause enough to even get ganked that hard, either.

It's not supposed to be-- if you've not been active in the conflict, my understanding is that they shouldn't have cause. I'm not gonna act like either side has been perfect in discerning this tho. I was in a group yesterday that jumped on a True Newb who'd joined the militia of Enorian. Like died in three hits. After we took him down and we realized that, we put him on a "don't kill" list, but yeah. It's possible people assumed you were going to be active. Or they were actively grieving. I've seen logs of people actually advocating griefing, so it's not an outlandish assumption.

edit: ex so it's not just some vague 'trust me, there's a log' excerpt. Names redacted, but you know who you are

(Web): Person A says, "This isn't a game anymore."

(Web): Person B says, "Yes it literally is???"

(Web): Person B says, "Just log out."

(Web): Person B says, "And it won't be your problem anymore."

(Web): Person A says, "Yeah so we can grief them and they can log out."

(Web): Person A says, "It's just a game."

(Web): Person B says, "I'm not going to grief people."

Xavin

It's a little disheartening when you hear that people are, quote, looking forward to one organization or another getting more greify as the conflict goes on or that people are of the opinion that one side or another won't have the stamina for the conflict after much longer and then the opposing side (that they are on) will just stomp all over them and force them to take whatever terms they like.

I'm sure it's happening on both sides but any time I've noticed it in spirit web we have had people trying to cool things down.

Toz

I've only seen spirit side escalate, and also run out of stamina at the same time. 20 strong gank groups, raiding vs just Nipsy killing guards, rolling 'non active' militia after being told that's not allowed (which I think is silly tbh), potentially somebody's bashing chaos plane mobs, doctoring logs and lying on Discord. And then offering terms to end the fight- it's a party and a half. Great that you guys are trying to keep web PG (even if I don't really believe that either). For all the gnashing of teeth and wailing about Shadow being the One True Monsters, you guys sure are doing the same stuff that you've done for forever while magnificently playing the victim card nonstop. It's just slightly more refined, but practice makes perfect?

Edit: I forgot to add 'pking without aura' before war started cause I sure got smoked at death caves and that would have been an auto issue from spirit, and bashing troops to avoid 'an act of war', and lying about caravan blockade. I'm sure a few othet things too.

Tetchta

Xavin said:

I'm sure it's happening on both sides but any time I've noticed it in spirit web we have had people trying to cool things down.

Not to say it doesn't happen on Shadow at all, because big caveat being that I'm not online 24/7 (and especially the past week or so), but I've not really seen much OOC pushing for demoralizing or even that much tilt overall in the channels I'm in, be it raiders or web, so there honestly hasn't been much of a need for folk to be talked down that I've seen.

Iazamat

Some of you need to start pointing fingers at yourselves instead of others. The attitudes and behaviours over being unable to handle losses and walk away/log out when conflict has become too much for you, personally, to handle is ridiculous and overall stifles conflict instead of encouraging healthy attitudes. If you feel "the other side" is griefing, issue. Pony up those receipts and issue. Stop being children about it and issue. If you aren't issuing when "griefing" is occurring, it's because you're afraid to be proven wrong or know better. But shouting over web that someone's griefing in an attempt to rile everyone else up? Immature.

If you want "the other side" to be better, start looking at your own side's behaviour and how they're conducting themselves.

Ehtias

As a juxtaposiologist I need some time to place these statements side by side and review all of them. Get my nice big mmming cap on please await my response.

Xavin

I mean, I could bring the receipts on people playing shadow characters advocating griefing if you want? I'm not saying that there aren't bad actors on Spirit side because I know I can't be attentive at all times when I'm logged in. Things get around.

Almol

Xavin said:

I mean, I could bring the receipts on people playing shadow characters advocating griefing if you want? I'm not saying that there aren't bad actors on Spirit side because I know I can't be attentive at all times when I'm logged in. Things get around.

Please do.

I will 100% own saying spirit doesn't have the stamina (and I don't see what's wrong for with making an objective assessment about who has more stamina in a war of attrition, to be clear) for this but I haven't seen any advocating for griefing and we are following, not skirting, the rules.

Xavin

Maybe some of it is misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions then, because you saying that has definitely been taken as advocating and/or looking forward to things getting griefy. Looking back on the other thing I saw, it looks like they were outright stating that Bloodloch would get more and more griefy as the conflict drags on, which has also been taken as advocating for it.

If people aren't following the rules then either name and shame or put in the issues so they're taken care of. I can't personally say that I have caught anyone outright stating intent to grief in Spirit's war web so I can't say for sure that it is definitely not going on and it's impossible to prove a negative. But most of our side's leaders, at least, aren't advocating for doing anything of the sort.

Bulrok

Post the receipts already Jesus 

Tetchta

Xavin said:

I mean, I could bring the receipts on people playing shadow characters advocating griefing if you want?

Yeah.

Almol

Xavin said:

Maybe some of it is misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions then, because you saying that has definitely been taken as advocating and/or looking forward to things getting griefy. Looking back on the other thing I saw, it looks like they were outright stating that Bloodloch would get more and more griefy as the conflict drags on, which has also been taken as advocating for it.

If people aren't following the rules then either name and shame or put in the issues so they're taken care of. I can't personally say that I have caught anyone outright stating intent to grief in Spirit's war web so I can't say for sure that it is definitely not going on and it's impossible to prove a negative. But most of our side's leaders, at least, aren't advocating for doing anything of the sort.

I don't need to name and shame, I've issued, as you should if you believe someone is griefing.

I can't help your (or anyone else's) interpretation of my statements but I can point out that literally every instance of escalation in this conflict has been instigated by Spirit.

If -anyone- is getting more and more griefy, it is Spirit.

Any assertion made by me is that we will respond in kind, and continue doing so until one side gives up, and that that side will not be Shadow.

You are still invited to post logs.

Bulrok

Full context, no one or two liners.

Rasani

I'm a bit confused. I took a break from all of this yesterday. The only thing I can remember thinking was shitty was the newbie killing, but parties involved apologized. If Spirit folks are ganking newbies, that's shitty too.

What I DO think is weird is this becoming a "oh spirit side is playing the victim card :C" cuz as far as I can see, we're engaging with the war in a way that people have been saying for ages they want. This isn't me trying to be an asshole, I GENUINELY am curious. I assumed with the shouts and the fights that everyone was enjoying their engagement or, if they weren't, they were taking a step back. If this isn't the case, maybe it's time to RP and find an end to it, idk.

The thing I find weird is that for all the years I've played, some of the folks in this thread have said 'If you don't want to get pushed around, start pushing back" and once we actually push back, we're bad? IDK man. It's weird to me.

I will say this though: I absolutely agree that BOTH sides have piled on people they shouldn't have. It's shitty on both sides and that, 100%, should stop. That said, if it's fine for one side it's fine for the other. Spirit can't go "no that's not okay" if we're not willing to tell our OWN folks "no that's not okay".

Bulrok

Full disclosure I am down to clown until it goes far enough the admin step in and swat us on the nose with a newspaper. I am NOT advocating that we go far, but if we do then we do.

What I am not OK with is this vague booking bullshit about grief, from anyone. Shadow is not the tether that started this. Shadow is not the tether attacking 2 orders and avoiding declaring a holy war on either. Shadow is not the one avoiding all conflict until they out number spirit 2 to 1. Shadow isn't the one threatening bashers with a bounty just because they path through an area. Spirit is all of those things, and I'm not saying any of it in an accusatory tone. I'm fine with it. I love this shit. 2000 deaths in 7 days. Amazing, simply amazing. But if we're gonna start accusing people of being bullies, you better provide full fucking receipts, and look in the mirror.

Don't lose this energy either.

Almol

Let's keep this same energy forever.

Toz

No. It isn't 'both sides bad ' - it is Spirit side escalating and further dragging things to an extreme. This is not a complaint. This is simply what is happening. I'm here for it and all for it. But what is happening is people are starting to complain we're out to grief, just like @Xavin did earlier in this thread- but I very much doubt it is isolated, and I am happy to go ask around for more logs of people claiming shadow side wants to grief, if I need to. Spirit is on the stronger side in terms of general pk ability. But Spirit also seems to be returning to form with the 'dish it but cannot take it' of bygone days, and that is the entire reason for my post. It's played out. Yes, push back. You are going to get pushed too. I'm all for 20 people raiding BL and bashing guards, I have adapted playstyle to being open pk, and I've been wandering into random ganks while on my phone and systemless.

It's just going to happen back, and keep happening back, because that's how PK goes. And I've been down this road before when it was the Carnifex bashing villages once a week, down this road when it was Moghedu, down this road when it was Mitrine war, down this road when it was Trikal raiding Duiran in reply to the catapult theft. Maybe this is the one time everyone is being totally 100% real and genuine, but I doubt it.

Rasani

Toz said:

No. It isn't 'both sides bad ' - it is Spirit side escalating and further dragging things to an extreme. This is not a complaint. This is simply what is happening. I'm here for it and all for it. But what is happening is people are starting to complain we're out to grief, just like @Xavin did earlier in this thread- but I very much doubt it is isolated, and I am happy to go ask around for more logs of people claiming shadow side wants to grief, if I need to. Spirit is on the stronger side in terms of general pk ability. But Spirit also seems to be returning to form with the 'dish it but cannot take it' of bygone days, and that is the entire reason for my post. It's played out. Yes, push back. You are going to get pushed too. I'm all for 20 people raiding BL and bashing guards, I have adapted playstyle to being open pk, and I've been wandering into random ganks while on my phone and systemless.

It's just going to happen back, and keep happening back, because that's how PK goes. And I've been down this road before when it was the Carnifex bashing villages once a week, down this road when it was Moghedu, down this road when it was Mitrine war, down this road when it was Trikal raiding Duiran in reply to the catapult theft. Maybe this is the one time everyone is being totally 100% real and genuine, but I doubt it.

Again, I'm either missing people being unable to take it or you are assuming we're not willing to take it. You can say all you'd like that it was just one guy bashing guards, that's fine, but the choice to mass-bash guards in retaliation was an rp choice. And Bloodloch made a similar one AFTER we did it. Like, I guess what it looks like, to me because I haven't seen what you're talking about (other than Xavin saying he has logs and Tetchta posting an edited log) is that you're ASSUMING that we're unable to take what we're dishing out. But we are, and we're dishing it back out at Shadow.

IDK man it's just so strange to me that people keep saying "I'm here for it" and then complaining about it. I'm the first one to admit, openly, that I'm already bored of this, but that's because I play the game mostly to roleplay (and, to specify because this came up in the Discord: by this I mean emoting a lot in a row. Yes, the war in of itself is rp, but it's mostly pk rp if that makes sense?) I'm still out there though, because this is what's going on and I wanna engage in the game. Any complaining I do is from a personal place of "this isn't what I play the game for" not "oh no shadow is doing what we're doing back at us" and I'm in the minority on Spirit side. From what I'm seeing, everyone is having fun but everyone is also ASSUMING that everyone else is butthurt about stuff. It's such a weird thing.

Xavin

Hi, I said that some people were looking forward to getting more greify which based on what I was shown appeared to be true. I did not say that the entirety of Shadow is out to greif. As for a long, I'm waiting on permission to post what I was shown because I don't want anyone to get into trouble, but it was literally one of Bloodloch's leaders saying to someone that bloodloch is going to get more griefy the longer it goes on. If you want to take my post as complaining (which it wasn't really) or as trying to wash Spirit's hands of any wrongdoing (which it wasn't), then that's on you. Y'all sure are quick to jump down people's throats though.

Toz

Hey maybe this is the first time there won't be mass organized issue campaigns, "bait them so they break pk rules" plans, and all sorts of stuff. If so, then fights for days and that'll be great.

I'm just not going to let the false equivalence of "both sides bad" start though, because I've seen how that ride goes- Enorian and Duiran are turning up the heat and BL is meeting them when they can. Own it, it's perfectly valid RP.