The Bloody Audit Thread

Ezalor

Fenrir said:

Still don't see a list of active BB combatants aside from Ilyon.

That's hardly an indication of a class's competency. There are no real active Shaman combatants outside of Illidan, that doesn't make them underpowered.

Aaand Xarian is a BB combatant. You know, the guy who's kind of been at the top of Aetolia PK forever.

The point I've been trying to make isn't that vampires are underpowered. I don't believe that at all. But they're not as crazy overpowered and tanky as some people paint them to be.

Fenrir

The popularity of a class is often an indicator of how well they perform in PK.

Toz

Clearly, to settle this, you should all go into the arena. Maximize one class for optimal defense, and have someone try to just straight-up damage kill it. Count the number of hits it takes. Then switch to a different element. Shaman vs cutting, then BB vs cutting. Etc. etc. until you have it all sorted - sitting here going 'BB isn't as tanky!' and 'BB is so as tanky!' isn't really getting anywhere.

Malok

Is it too late to flaunt my audit too? I was gone the last couple of days, I didn't wanna miss out.

********************************[ Resistances ]********************************

Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutting        55%          0%           48%          63%

Blunt          55%          0%           53%          64%

Magic          50%          24%          0%           59%

Fire           55%          24%          0%           63%

Cold           55%          24%          0%           63%

Electric       55%          24%          0%           63%

Poison         55%          0%           0%           51%

Psychic        25%          24%          0%           43%

Asphyxiation   45%          22%          0%           55%

*******************************************************************************

Ezalor

I don't believe that. Xarian just won the big Christmas FFA that gave us our lovely statues. The point of all my arguing wasn't to prove BB/Prae is underpowered, that's not my stance/belief at all.

And even if you wanted to go that route, Xarian + Ilyon aren't exactly unsuccessful with the class.

Fenrir

My point is that regardless of the class being tanky, that doesn't make it overpowered or in any need of adjustment.

People are just looking at audits and freaking out for no reason whatsoever. God forbid you can't straight up damagekill someone. Welcome to end game, where 90% of the combatants wont die to damage.

Malok

Note: The Above Audit was just for my own amusement. I'm a Powerful Sapivi Praenomen with full orbs, miasma, Bloodloch statue, fortify, ward, rings, etc etc etc etc etc. And yes, that's post Miasma nerf. I have crappy 3.75s dwhispers.

Ezalor

You forgot to press fumeae!

Riluo

<P>Appears my question got buried and instead of starting another thread I will ask here.</P>
<P>What are the speeds of scythe/dwhisper with other statpacks such as Dex/wise. Also has anyone got numbers both with and without level 3 runes. </P>
<P>Currently I am powerful and doing 3.70 with scythe (level 3 runes) and 3.75 dwhispers.  I started relearning combat again earlier last week and got crushed by a lot of people with a few Carnifex just outpacing me to the point I was getting in no hits, only the odd whisper. So it looks like its time to switch stuff up!</P>

Illikaal

Just for the record (I tl;dr'd everything) My numbers that I posted are with a double blessing, though I'm not sure if the 10% audit bonus stacks anymore. Either way, that should be accounted for.

Ezrax

I can't bash Xaanhal even with a blessing now. I always had a tiny bit of trouble with it but that's because I have the handicap of lag that no amount of coding or buffs can fix, so now I'll just have to wait until I move next week. No biggie (probably).

Keroc

Ezalor said:

Though I don't get why Illidan's totals are all way higher when the defenses + armour + minis columns are the same. For example for cutting he has 35% defense and 28% armour, comes to a total of 49%. I have 35% defense and 29% armour, comes to a total of...43%?! It's the same for all the other resists too.

This is due to the mechanics behind Thorncoat. It acts more like a blessing then a resistance.

Illikaal

What's the difference between a blessing and a resistance? Assuming there is one, judging from how you worded that statement.

Also, the Bark fetish activates/deactivates everytime you take 2k damage. You take 2k, you gain more audit. Take another 2k, and it's gone. Lather rinse repeat. 

Thorncoat lasts 30 seconds, and has a cooldown of 40 seconds (after it wears off) before it can be cast again. That's not that bad, tbh. I don't know why I don't use it more >.>

Keroc

It's the reason why you see diminishing returns in your audit totals. Your resistances and armour are applied separately rather than all at once.

To show an example, you have 50% resistance against cutting, and 25% from mini skills:

d = 100 raw damage

(d * (1 - 0.5)) * (1 - 0.25) = new damage

is a different change to

d * (1 - (0.5 + 0.25)) = new damage

Thorncoat (and blessings) get applied as seperate reductors (despite then showing otherwise in audit). Originally I didn't have them show but it ended up being confusing for some people. Damage reduction an't so straight forward!

Tza

Wait what.

If you have 50% resistance you end up with roughly 50% reduction. If you have 50% resistance AND 25% from minis you end up with ~12% reduction?! Because that's what your 100 * .5 * .25 looks like to me...

And btw, you're all whining on a very high level. Someone give me some non-endgame Syssin love here. :S

Keroc

My explanation was super lazy. Have an updated one.

Hadoryu

As an aside, the number of active fighters and the number of top fighters in a particular class means bugger all about how good that class is. Sorry!

Xon used to use that argument a ton. Those were the days ...

Tza

@Keroc: Thanks, that makes more sense!

Ilyon

This thread is hilarious. Anyway, a few things.

Comparing audits is misleading at best, and useless at worst. You need to take the entire situation into account - when we were doing a liaison project of collecting audit info, I made sure to include a list of "other factors" that contribute to tankiness, or lack thereof (regens, vitality-like skills, etc).

As for the vamp sip malus, it's -very- roughly equivalent to reducing the audit by 6%. Not a huge deal, but definitely not a non-factor either.

@Riluo - your numbers seem to be without the stillmind ritual, that's why you're getting worse results.

For Bloodborn, you basically have three options at endgame:

1. Powerful statpack. Scythe speed 3.84, whispers 3.75, overall combo speed 3.84. This is the only option if you don't have artifacts.
2. Wise statpack + level 3 rune. Scythe speed 3.44, whispers 3.22, overall combo speed 3.44 - basically for 800cr you can lose 10% tankiness and gain 12% speed. This is what I use.
3. Wise statpack, get a sword or a spear instead of the scythe. Combo speed 3.22 without the diadem, 2.96 with one. Lose all scythe benefits. I am not a fan of this combination myself, as it's basically Praenomen-lite - if you want to do this, you're better off being a full Praenomen instead. It's definitely a viable choice, though, as Xarian demonstrated.

For reference, this is current Bloodborn audit with Wise statpack and scythe stance. Blessing included. No blueorb, statue, or any other special defence.

Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutting        35%          0%           40%          46%
Blunt          35%          0%           40%          46%
Magic          50%          24%          0%           59%
Fire           15%          24%          0%           36%
Cold           45%          24%          0%           56%
Electric       35%          24%          0%           50%
Poison         35%          24%          0%           50%
Psychic        15%          24%          0%           36%
Asphyxiation   25%          24%          0%           43%

The same with the protection amulet added:
Cutting        35%          0%           53%          51%
Blunt          35%          0%           53%          51%
Magic          50%          24%          0%           59%
Fire           15%          24%          0%           36%
Cold           45%          24%          0%           56%
Electric       35%          24%          0%           50%
Poison         35%          24%          0%           50%
Psychic        15%          24%          0%           36%
Asphyxiation   25%          24%          0%           43%

Seir

You're still an unarmored class beating every other unarmored class and competing with classes that DO use armor at the middle of the pack. Your offense isn't particularly lacking either. You are, as Xavin previously mentioned, very difficult to slow down because of Mentis working when prone/goes through shield. You also have a Disturb whisper to use when you need to gain extra ground.

My real issue with vampires at this present moment is how they're capable of pretty much doing everything. Damage, mana pressure, Praenomen have passive blackout where Monks have to use Mind Blackout actively at a large eq loss and have no passive offense, passive paralysis in Praenomen, uncurable passive afflictions that add to the damage that you do for Praenomen, both classes have the tools at their disposal to actively truelock (the only other class in the game that can definitively truelock is Syssin and it comes with reliance on Hypnosis), high armor with BOTH vampire classes when one of them is an unarmored class and the other is competing with some of the most armored classes in the game. You guys basically do everything with very little in the means of trade-off compared to other classes.

Edhain

I remember when I was a newb and Seir's comments seemed true even then. Always reckoned it was the trade-off for being vampire - you know, the dark side of the force and all that. Getting burnt by the sun and such. Technically those afflictions aren't incurable or passive though if you're talking about biles. Unless things have changed. And they did delete black biles so that was a fair nerf. I think vampires have to retain some kind of power and fear for their role-playing vibe to be applicable in the PvP sphere of the game. I'm OK with them being a tiny bit OP, if they still are.

Seir

They're uncurable in the sense that you have to leave the Vamp's room and apply epidermal and return. Generally, they're re-applied and you sacrifice your offense in doing so.

I'm fine with vampires being powerful so long as they're subject to the same standard of balance that every class is held to. They're not the exception to the rule. No one is.

Illikaal

Hadoryu said:

As an aside, the number of active fighters and the number of top fighters in a particular class means bugger all about how good that class is. Sorry!

Xon used to use that argument a ton. Those were the days ...

To touch on that: Look at the Templars. If OP Hadoryu or Yos come back to show these new inexperienced whippersnappers how its done, people are going to think "Oh god, Templars are the most broken class in the game." As it stands, i'm pretty sure a lot of people think that Templars suck complete monkey nuts, when in reality, they're strong as shit right now. 

Everyone thought Shamans sucked when they first came out too, until the got a few buffs. Even with the buffs they got, hardly anything has changed about Shamans at all. But now, apparently Shamans are OP. This also relates to Seir's previous comment people confusing an entire class (or skill for that matter) as being the ever dreaded 'overpowered' when in fact the matter in question is just very strong. If every class had a really crappy method of killing people, and having no really strong options to beating their opponent (Indorani, Mages, Cabalists) then we're just going to revert back to old Aetolian combat where fights among the tippity top tier combatants went on for hours, until someone ran out of cures or got too bored/annoyed to continue on. 

Also. Lol @ whippersnappers apparently being a legitimate word by Aetolia's Forum dictionary. 

Seir

Yeah, I'd like to point out that I'm not calling anything overpowered here.

My logic is: Vamps are strong with no real weakness that can't be reasonably mitigated. This is reflected in how potent their offense is in terms of damage, mana pressure, affliction potential, passive blackout (for Praenomen) and that their audits are among the most superior in the game, which is odd given that one of them is an unarmoured class.

Given that every class has been subjected to balancing around strengths and weaknesses, I think vampires have avoided it largely because the classes have a vast under-representation in solo combat thus not allowing these traits to be readily seen, observed, or tested. However, I've been pointing out vampires for a long period of now and I've done pretty well in spotting and making reports for abilities or classes that have something too powerful. (See: old Syssin Bedazzle having masked hypochondria after hypochondria got changed to just screw up diagnose with no symptom messages and another report way back when for the silliness that was Sentinel charge spam.)

Tza

@Seir: I do think Vampires have a weakness and I hate this particular one in any game: Time. Run them out of blood. Unless something has massively changed in the last couple years, a Bloodborn with full defences and wisp going will run dry after 3-5 Minutes in full offense (which I find an annoyingly short time span. Maybe the re-vamp (harhar) will change this -> give 'em a decent weakness and remove the annoyingly high reliance on blood).

Seir

I have no problem with eliminating their sustained offense issue with blood if they take reasonable concessions elsewhere.

Xavin

Ezalor said:

No one is going to fight in Sapivi. If you want to compare a Sapivi Prae's audit then go make that Shaman fight in Powerful.

I want to address this line in particular. There is a very good reason why a vampire would consider fighting in Sapivi. Namely large firedamage from Ascendril and Luminaries. Consider: there is no way of knowing what specialization a praenomen is in. As such, you're going to assume that they're in Insidea and therefore very vulnerable to fire damage. Therefore a mage is going to be staffcasting fire at you instead of lightning. They're going to assume that their holocausts and efreet are going to hit you hard. A luminary is going to enflame their mace for fire damage against you. You can mitigate these edges by using Sapivi to nullify your weakness to fire. And you can do it without them even really knowing. Heck, you'd also get rid of that sip malus - the one thing that might give a damage route -any- chance of working against you.

Ezalor

Eh, even with Sapivi it's not like your fire audit is higher than the other elemental audits. It's actually still lower than most others, forcing them to use fire damage isn't giving an advantage, just taking one away.

And the minion is craptastic with Sapivi. -1 strength, slower minion, and lower HP on the minion (when it already dies insanely fast). Your only choices are Insidiae for combat and Sapivi for bashing. Phreneses just blows altogether.

Hopefully in the future paths are made more versatile beyond what they are now, but as it is there's really one set choice for combat and one set choice for bashing.

Angwe

Where are some of you getting your ideas on what 'others' audits look like?

Anyway, this is me.

********************************[ Resistances ]********************************


Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutting        30%          0%           35%          41%
Blunt          30%          0%           34%          41%
Magic          35%          0%           0%           33%
Fire           35%          0%           0%           33%
Cold           35%          0%           0%           33%
Electric       25%          0%           0%           24%
Poison         25%          0%           0%           24%
Psychic        15%          0%           0%           15%
Asphyxiation   15%          0%           0%           15%
*******************************************************************************

This is your avarage Sentinel audit without orbs and without minis.

Edit: I forgot to mention that this is with a divine favor.

Moirean

Riluo said:

Currently I am powerful and doing 3.70 with scythe (level 3 runes) and 3.75 dwhispers.  I started relearning combat again earlier last week and got crushed by a lot of people with a few Carnifex just outpacing me to the point I was getting in no hits, only the odd whisper. So it looks like its time to switch stuff up!

I think that's partially just you being rusty. Carnifex, for example, are a (horribly-designed) momentum-based offense, so if you don't hinder and slow them or go defensive every now and then, they are going to be hitting you at 1.5 seconds eventually. Once you figure out how to slow em down, though (hint, it's called rebounding), they are a good bit slower with their hits.