The Bloody Audit Thread

Riluo

<P>@Daskalos Not something we can do.</P>
<P>Here is my audit as a Powerful Bloodborn with a blessing, Miasma and no scythe:</P>
<P>********************************[ Resistances ]********************************<BR>Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     <BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Cutting        45%          0%           0%           42%<BR>Blunt           45%          0%           0%             42%<BR>Magic          40%          24%          0%           53%<BR>Fire             25%          24%          0%              43%<BR>Cold            55%          15%          0%             59%<BR>Electric        45%          21%          0%            55%<BR>Poison         45%          0%           0%            42%<BR>Psychic        15%          13%          0%           27%<BR>Asphyxiation   35%          24%          0%           50%<BR>*******************************************************************************</P>
<P>Here it is again with above plus Scythe stance:</P>
<P><BR>********************************[ Resistances ]********************************<BR>Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     <BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Cutting        45%          0%           40%          54%<BR>Blunt          45%          0%           40%          54%<BR>Magic          40%          24%          0%           53%<BR>Fire           25%          24%          0%           43%<BR>Cold           55%          15%          0%           59%<BR>Electric       45%          21%          0%           55%<BR>Poison         45%          0%           0%           42%<BR>Psychic        15%          13%          0%           27%<BR>Asphyxiation   35%          24%          0%           50%<BR>*******************************************************************************</P>

Ezalor

@Xavin exactly! Shamans and Teradrim are both higher than those audits and that's WITHOUT a sip malus. So...really. Please stop perpetuating this myth that vampires are in the top tier of tankiness. They're not, yet I hear people complaining that they are by far the tankiest class in the game, which isn't even close to true.

Their audit is lower than some classes AND they have a sip malus (10%) that no other classes have. You really can't call them anything even close to OP tanky.

As for BB having a more impressive active offense, that's not true either. If you are using the scythe (hence scythe stance) the fastest you can combo is 3.44 and that's with a level 3 weapon rune. Without artis you're stuck at ~3.7. That isn't anywhere close to overwhelming. People are so stuck on the days of Acino and Kadvar being unkillable on pre-nerf Powerful. That is far from the reality now; neither class is at the top in terms of tankiness.

Xavin

I'm sorry, does 2/3 of any other class's offense actively pierce shield, rebounding and prismatic barrier and can be done from prone?

And can most other weapon-based classes simply ignore rebounding?

Frankly, bloodborn are very, very powerful. They've got good active offense, pretty damn amazing defense, good active defense skills and several combat options.

And you're -also- ignoring all the passive effects they get: bloodshield, anxiety, blood meld, eldritch invocation. the list goes on and on. Don't you dare tell me that Bloodborn don't have an impressive offense because, frankly, they are amazing.

Riluo

<P>Raising a gruesome crescent scythe over your shoulder, you viciously slice at yourself.<BR><STRONG>Balance Used: 3.70 seconds <--this is full speed, yes</STRONG></P>
<P>Sorry this is with level3 runes. I forgot to state that when I posted.<BR></P>

Xavin

Yes, I know that they're slow barring dextrous statpack or weapon runes. But the fact remains:

bloodborn have one of the best potential audits in the game. Looking over numbers from the same batch that I gathered, here's the classes that they can exceed:

ascendril, sciomancer, lycanthrope, monk, zealot, shaman, cabalist, syssin, praenomen (narrowly), luminary templar, carnifex

As you can see, the only class that they -didn't- exceed was Indorani. And that's -just- pure damage reduction.

Fenrir

If they're so amazing I Xavin how many top tier Bloodborn combatants are there?

I know of Ilyon.

Ezalor

Xavin said:

I'm sorry, does 2/3 of any other class's offense actively pierce shield, rebounding and prismatic barrier and can be done from prone?

And can most other weapon-based classes simply ignore rebounding?

Frankly, bloodborn are very, very powerful. They've got good active offense, pretty damn amazing defense, good active defense skills and several combat options.

And you're -also- ignoring all the passive effects they get: bloodshield, anxiety, blood meld, eldritch invocation. the list goes on and on. Don't you dare tell me that Bloodborn don't have an impressive offense because, frankly, they are amazing.

You made the comparison to Praenomen. 2.96 (or 3.22 without artis) is far more impressive than the 3.44 (3.7 without artis) that Bloodborn pull in. Your argument was that scythe stance is now OP cause their active offense overwhelms that of for example Praenomen, but with the scythe speeds that's not true.

But that's besides the point. There you go calling their defense "pretty damn amazing" again. The audit is lower than Shamans and Teradrim and right in line with everyone else. Add a sip malus onto that. My point is it ISN'T "pretty damn amazing." If anything it's average to slightly above average.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not arguing they need buffs or anything along those lines. I'm trying to dispel the notion that you guys seem to have developed that they are in the top tier of tankiness when that just Plain. Isn't. True.

Xavin said:

Yes, I know that they're slow barring dextrous statpack or weapon runes. But the fact remains:

bloodborn have one of the best potential audits in the game. Looking over numbers from the same batch that I gathered, here's the classes that they can exceed:

ascendril, sciomancer, lycanthrope, monk, zealot, shaman, cabalist, syssin, praenomen (narrowly), luminary templar, carnifex

As you can see, the only class that they -didn't- exceed was Indorani. And that's -just- pure damage reduction.

...you have Illidan posting an audit that PROVES to you Shaman audit is higher. It's not higher than your Powerful BB numbers but be honest, when are you ever going to fight in Powerful BB? You have no offense at all in that statpack. Without Powerful Shaman > Bloodborn.

And again, even if the audits are the same as other classes, there is a SIP MALUS. That's 10% less healing per sip. So even if the audit is slightly better they're NOT tankier.

Xavin

Are you ignoring everything I said regarding all of their passives? Honestly, you can't just make a bloodborn's tertiary passive offense go away by killing an ent. They have a much more robust set of combat skills and, ultimately, achieve an affliction rate that rivals, if not exceeds, praenomen. You can argue until you're blue in the face but, frankly, you're wrong. And here's the numbers that back it up:

http://pastebin.com/RMWWJGzw

 

You will note that I do not have numbers for new teradrim. I went through this compilation pre-release of that class. However, there haven't been many changes at all that would change these numbers greatly.

 

Ezalor

Xavin said:

Are you ignoring everything I said regarding all of their passives? Honestly, you can't just make a bloodborn's tertiary passive offense go away by killing an ent. They have a much more robust set of combat skills and, ultimately, achieve an affliction rate that rivals, if not exceeds, praenomen. You can argue until you're blue in the face but, frankly, you're wrong. And here's the numbers that back it up:

http://pastebin.com/RMWWJGzw

 

You will note that I do not have numbers for new teradrim. I went through this compilation pre-release of that class. However, there haven't been many changes at all that would change these numbers greatly.

 

Are you ignoring everything I said about how that's not the point? Sure let's just pretend I agree with you on their offense.

I am arguing about their tankiness. That's my point. Lower audit than Teradrim/Shamans. Similar audit to many other classes. SIP MALUS.

I'm not arguing they are underpowered. Not at all. Just stop calling BB/Prae super tanky. It's not true.

And...just looking through your pastebin. I would trade my Prae audit for almost EVERY one of those other audits if it meant getting rid of the sip malus. Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't?

Riluo

<P>Anyone got wise and dextrous statpack speeds for scythe/dwhisper with runes and without? I went Powerful a while back to get endgame and have yet to switch.</P>

Xavin

Because this:

Ringmail - (34/34) - (22% armor, 7% total)

 

Shaman - Wise

 

********************************[ Resistances ]********************************

Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutting        35%          0%           22%          49%

Blunt          35%          0%           22%          49%

Magic          25%          24%          0%           49%

Fire           35%          24%          0%           56%

Cold           35%          24%          0%           56%

Electric       25%          24%          0%           49%

Poison         25%          24%          0%           49%

Psychic        15%          24%          0%           43%

Asphyxiation   15%          24%          0%           43%

**********************************************************************

is clearly higher than this:

Bloodborn: scythestance - powerful

 

********************************[ Resistances ]********************************

Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutting        45%          0%           40%          56%

Blunt          45%          0%           40%          56%

Magic          30%          24%          0%           47%

Fire           25%          24%          0%           43%

Cold           55%          24%          0%           66%

Electric       45%          24%          0%           59%

Poison         45%          24%          0%           59%

Psychic        15%          24%          0%           36%

Asphyxiation   35%          24%          0%           51%

**********************************************************************

yeah?

And that sip malus? Yeah, that's pretty much a joke. It's hardly worth mentioning. You're taking less damage. You don't need to sip for as much as a result. Even post-nerf to powerful I was one of the few that were capable of tanking tralendar's singularity chains as a bloodborn.

Ezalor

Find me a Powerful Bloodborn that can kill anyone, please. Go compare that Shaman with a Wise Bloodborn set, because that's the only viable one for Bloodborn. 

Xavin

And quit comparing your sub-optimal conditions audit to illidan's optimal conditions audit. His includes artifacts.

Ezalor

...what artifacts give audit bonus? There's a shield, that's it. The magic audit? Sure, decrease that by 10% then. 

If you're calling 10% sip malus a joke then 10% extra magic resist is surely entirely negligible.

Xavin

Amulet of Protection: (500cr)
  - Grants protection equivalent to 20/20 Cut/Blunt protection armor,
    so long as you're not wearing any other armour. If you do wear
    other armour with the amulet, the protection it grants is halved.

Edit: Unarmored it provides 13% to your total cutting and blunt. Armored, it's 6%. Shields -don't- count as armor for the purpose of the amulet.

Riluo

<P>With an amulet:</P>
<P>Cutting        45%          0%           53%          58% <BR>Blunt          45%          0%           53%          58%</P>
<P>Without an amulet:</P>
<P>Cutting        45%          0%           40%          54%<BR>Blunt          45%          0%           40%          54%</P>
<P> </P>

Xavin

You're also missing the point about the sip malus entirely. It's a joke because your audit is so good. It's a joke because you get a cooldown free vitality. It's a joke because it's very, very difficult to actually slow a bloodborn down.

Ezalor

Ah right, valid point. But look, here are your numbers from your pastebin.

1. ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
2.  
3. Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
4.  
5. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.  
7. Cutting        35%          0%           51%          52%
8.  
9. Blunt          35%          0%           51%          52%
10.  
11. Magic          40%          24%          0%           55%
12.  
13. Fire           15%          24%          0%           36%
14.  
15. Cold           45%          24%          0%           59%
16.  
17. Electric       35%          24%          0%           51%
18.  
19. Poison         35%          24%          0%           51%
20.  
21. Psychic        15%          24%          0%           36%
22.  
23. Asphyxiation   25%          24%          0%           43%
24.  
25. *******************************************************************************
    
    
    1. ********************************[ Resistances ]********************************
    2.  
    3. Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total    
    4.  
    5. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    6.  
    7. Cutting        30%          0%           58%          51%
    8.  
    9. Blunt          30%          0%           58%          51%
    10.  
    11. Magic          25%          24%          0%           43%
    12.  
    13. Fire           35%          24%          0%           51%
    14.  
    15. Cold           35%          24%          0%           51%
    16.  
    17. Electric       25%          24%          0%           43%
    18.  
    19. Poison         25%          24%          0%           43%
    20.  
    21. Psychic        15%          24%          0%           36%
    22.  
    23. Asphyxiation   15%          24%          0%           36%
    24.  
    25. *******************************************************************************
        
        
        
        

I just picked the first class below it. 1% higher cutting/blunt audit (and that's with a shield, which I'm not sure is the optimal way to go with spear nerf). 12% higher magic audit. 15% lower fire audit. 8% higher cold audit. 8% higher poison audit. 7% higher asphyxiation audit.

Do you honestly think that with a sip malus Praenomen are significantly tankier than Sentinels? BB audit is more or less the same with Prae's, so same comparison there. That audit is not "so good" compared to the Sentinel one. Certainly not even close to good enough to dismiss a 10% sip malus. I would gladly trade audits with Sentinels, actually, if it meant getting rid of the sip malus. Average of 4% higher in audit compared to -10% sip?

Xavin

Yes, I do. For bloodborn, in particular, I cite the fact that you have sangispect - a cooldown free version of vitality. Furthermore, barkskin was nerfed - something I forgot about before posting those numbers, so I'll need to fix that. In its place, sentinels recieved a skill that heals them slightly when they deal damage, but that only works when they're actively attacking.

Bloodborn and Praenomen both also have mend, which is more effective the less health you have.

All in all, you're only very rarely going to damage kill a bloodborn or praenomen that really knows what they're doing - unless you catch them with some -massive- burst damage, likely from fire. But then again...praenomen can nullify that fire malus and turn it into a fairly high resist.

Ezalor

There also seems to be something bugged about Shaman audit. Go look at your numbers; Prae/BB is higher in most defenses but somehow Shamans are significantly higher in the total audit. Same case with Illidan's audit.

4% higher average audit and -10% sip malus. I would say Sent audit wins out there. I just picked that one out at random; compare it to anything other than Monk/Lycan and I'm sure you get similar results. Even if you nerf down barkskin, you also have to consider the Prae very likely won't have a shield. 

So that leaves mend as the difference maker vs whatever healing abilities other classes have. Even if mend wins out I would hardly call that a huge advantage to the point where people are saying vampires are unkillable.

Again, I'm not saying they are UP. I am not saying they need to be buffed. I am not saying their offense is weak. What I am saying is that they certainly aren't as insanely tanky as some people make them out to be.

Xavin

No, those numbers are correct. His numbers are right on par with the ones I had actually, and he's including spiritmask.

And when you say "higher in the total audit", I'm really not sure what you mean. PRaenomen there has shaman beat in six out of nine categories. Likely this has something to do with undead and vampire traits not showing up in the categories?

Ezalor

Xavin said:

No, those numbers are correct. His numbers are right on par with the ones I had actually, and he's including spiritmask.

And when you say "higher in the total audit", I'm really not sure what you mean. PRaenomen there has shaman beat in six out of nine categories. Likely this has something to do with undead and vampire traits not showing up in the categories?

For example look at the Asphyxiation audit. 

Praenomen shows 25% defense, 24% mini for a total of 43%.

Shaman shows 15% defense, 24% mini for a total of 43%.

Prae has 10% more defense, yet the total is the same. Something is bugged there.

To add on:

Zealot shows 15% defense, 24% mini for a total of 36%. 

That's where Shamans should be at, 36%. But they show 43%?

Xavin

Likely it was a defense not showing up in the breakdown. Audit can compute things in a weird way.

Ezalor

Xavin said:

Likely it was a defense not showing up in the breakdown. Audit can compute things in a weird way.

Unless they have a defense that boosts every single damage type by over 10% somehow I doubt it. Every single number of their audit total is showing far higher than the defenses + minis should have it at.

Xavin

Remember that there's some sort of computation that we are not privy to that happens between the breakdowns and the total. There is likely some variable that we just don't see.

Ezalor

Well then if it is legit Praenomen actually have less total audit than Shamans do. You can claim they win in 6 of the 9 categories but they win those categories by only 3%, 3%, 6%, 3%, 2%, and 2%. Meanwhile they have -20% on fire and -7% on asphyxiation. Add in sip malus and yes, Shaman audit is better than Prae/BB audit.

Xavin

a -20% on fire that they can turn in to a fairly large bonus against with the right specialization. Really, praenomen versatility is only working against them in this discussion.

And any supposed "well if you consider this" must go both ways. Consider that, in general, all you have to do is prone or break a shaman's arm to stop them in their tracks, aside from any overgrowth effects they have or their pet.

What can praenomen do in those situations? Well, they still have their ent ticking away. They still have their biles potentially ticking away, assuming the target hasn't left the room to actually cure. If it's just a broken arm and it's not their weapon arm, they can still use their full active offense. And if they have both arms broken or are prone they can still double whisper.

Macavity

I should also note that on my Audit, I also have the amulet of protection along with Artifact shield.  I forgot about that amulet counting now for any class as it use to count for non-armor classes.  

So class my audit in with Illidan's as well, saying that ours should not be of comparison.  

Ezalor

No one is going to fight in Sapivi. If you want to compare a Sapivi Prae's audit then go make that Shaman fight in Powerful.

For your other stuff, I don't disagree. I don't actually know what Shamans do at all, really, so even I wanted to argue I have no basis in it, though it looks like you're downplaying a pet + overgrowth while championing a pet + biles for Prae. But again, no clue on how effective the Shaman pets and overgrowth are.

My point is Shamans have a superior audit straight up -and- Prae have a sip malus. Maybe mend puts them on par or pushes vampires above but certainly not enough to say they are OP tanky compared to Shamans. This same comparison applies to other classes as well, though not to the same extent since Shamans seem to be getting a phantom +7% to all audit total resists out of nowhere.

Fenrir

Still don't see a list of active BB combatants aside from Ilyon.