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Delete Insight
So the title of the discussion is direct, but the intention is to both make a suggestion and make an argument.
Insight can be a great tool for roleplay in many ways. It gives other players a great option to learn more about a character, create subversive plotlines, communicate in new ways, deepen bonds, develop characters - the list goes on.
However, on the other side, it also can make it far more difficult for subversive plotlines when EVERYONE is a telepath, to create stories with duplicity when EVERYONE is a telepath, to give some level of agency in possession, coercion, blackmail, or otherwise because, again, EVERYONE is a telepath.
Now, I know that is hyperbole, but enough established players have insight and have incorporated it into their character in some way that it is difficult to get away from the fact that at least one person around you can read thoughts. A recent ongoing RP plot has had me think on this, as I am struggling to consider ways in which my character can actively be duplicitous, if the story calls for it, as it is nearly impossible to say one thing but communicate/think another to the coercive agent without a player overhearing and immediately uncovering the plot.
Even if insight is not deleted, I do think it may be worth it to consider limiting it as it has the distinct possibility of hampering roleplay that encourages a character to do things they may not otherwise do because of outside influences. Intrigue makes things more interesting, and unfortunately, with thoughts so easily overheard intrigue is less able to be fostered as there are no 'private' methods of communication really out there outside of tells, and unfortunately tells are not necessarily an option all the time.
Thoughts? Opinions? Derails?
Edit: I will add in that I have used insight before, myself, to 'hear' thoughts on Saidenn and cited various reasons why. I am now wondering if that was in the best interest of the plot at the time, as well.
Insight can be a great tool for roleplay in many ways. It gives other players a great option to learn more about a character, create subversive plotlines, communicate in new ways, deepen bonds, develop characters - the list goes on.
However, on the other side, it also can make it far more difficult for subversive plotlines when EVERYONE is a telepath, to create stories with duplicity when EVERYONE is a telepath, to give some level of agency in possession, coercion, blackmail, or otherwise because, again, EVERYONE is a telepath.
Now, I know that is hyperbole, but enough established players have insight and have incorporated it into their character in some way that it is difficult to get away from the fact that at least one person around you can read thoughts. A recent ongoing RP plot has had me think on this, as I am struggling to consider ways in which my character can actively be duplicitous, if the story calls for it, as it is nearly impossible to say one thing but communicate/think another to the coercive agent without a player overhearing and immediately uncovering the plot.
Even if insight is not deleted, I do think it may be worth it to consider limiting it as it has the distinct possibility of hampering roleplay that encourages a character to do things they may not otherwise do because of outside influences. Intrigue makes things more interesting, and unfortunately, with thoughts so easily overheard intrigue is less able to be fostered as there are no 'private' methods of communication really out there outside of tells, and unfortunately tells are not necessarily an option all the time.
Thoughts? Opinions? Derails?
Edit: I will add in that I have used insight before, myself, to 'hear' thoughts on Saidenn and cited various reasons why. I am now wondering if that was in the best interest of the plot at the time, as well.
6
Comments
Because of the Insight skill, I absolutely REFUSE to use the THINK command if Rhyot is in a room filled with players. I will even have Rhyot TOUCH BELL before I use the THINK command just so that no one can hear his thoughts except for maybe some god who likely doesn't give two fucks about what a heathen thinks.
On the flip side, I also understand that people enjoy having this sense of "I know what you're thinking and it's going to give me an angle to RP with you later on." I just don't feel it's overly helpful because it also means they can use this as a means to avoid character interaction too.
Idk. Pros and cons to both. I'm ok with either, but you'll never catch me using THINK in group settings. At most, you'll see an 'mmm' premote, which is indicative of Rhyot thinking something, but you'll never know what.
From an OOC perspective I have to say I'm kind of on the fence about it. I used to like having the knowledge of knowing who was able to listen in to Benedicto's thoughts and Benedicto could then THINK - "Ah, this person is in Monk/Vamp, I should be careful with my thoughts." And then he'd just think random words and numbers. I know that most people have the insight defense up as a matter of course (hell, even I do admittedly).
Maybe there could be a check with the bell tattoo or something with telesense that shows who has actively got the Insight defense up so that you can RP it accordingly? An active defense that consumes willpower that allows you to shield your own thoughts that only Divine or those on an exemption list can pierce? Or perhaps, even the capacity to do a 'directed' thought (which I suppose is just a tell with the new-ish ability to add in the emotes to it?)
EDIT: To expand on the idea of there being an active defense to prevent insight. I just had this wild idea for it to link into something/rejuvenate Psycombat.
Inquisitor Benedicto: "Why do you shield your thoughts from me? Was it you that put that whoopee cushion on the Pentarchs chair, Knight Windrayn?"
Saybre: "N-no. Of course not sir."
Benedicto: "Then show me your thoughts."
Saybre /resists
LET PSYCOMBAT COMMENCE!
I literally have no doubt how this would work because THINKS are an active RP -- you can't force someone to think something. I guess you could RP having a mental duel of some description. I dunno, I'm idea-vomiting all over this post now.
Other than those skills, the only source of the Insight ability is the antiquated goggles, valued at 1600 credits to reach the eighth tier. It is entirely possible that people with goggles at that level paid more than 1600 credits to hit that ability.
With that out of the way, I feel like insight isn't really the sort of ability that actually hampers anyone's experience by it existing, let alone being prolific enough that you could say that everyone has it. But the idea that its very existence changes behavior has me thinking - does the existence of phase or spyglasses change your character's behavior in any meaningful way? Because those are similar enough that I would think that if you aren't worried about those then you really shouldn't be worried about insight.
Edit: Also, it doesn't show up on bell. I think, if people really have an issue with insight, having some kind of 'Someone is able to detect surface thoughts in this location' message on touching bell with someone actively using insight would probably be okay but I'm of the opinion that this really isn't a big enough deal for anything to change. Especially since there are plenty of people who just...never use the think command.
actually, as a fun little fact... you can. Monk's Mind Command actually can be used with think. I've used it personally before during RP to help set scenes with individuals that would otherwise require some sorta godmin prog. It's not exactly efficient, and I usually get permission before I do, but MIND COMMAND THINK does work and fires off as one might expect it to. Though that's a mechanical thing versus an RP thing.
Now with the goggles, there is no way to tell who has what level unless you're like "Hey Xavin, what level goggles do you have?" So essentially, it's better to assume that anyone who has goggles has Insight rather than not. I would argue that it does hamper people's experience. Because monk is such a rarely used class, before Praenomen had their Monitor ability, and before Goggles Insight was a skill... I would actively use the THINK command because no one could see Rhyot's thoughts. His inner mind was his own and didn't have intruders constantly trying to see what he was thinking. The only people I really had to worry about seeing my thoughts was a monk or a god, but if I knew there was a monk in room then I wouldn't use it. I don't mind if a god hears Rhyot's thoughts because god RP is most often amazing RP (even for a heathen).
The use of phase, blackwind, lightform are a completely separate argument because you can TOUCH BELL and see that they are there and watching. You also have a counter for this through the use of eye sigils. The spyglass also has an inherent counter where you can only use it via an adjacent room. Which means that if you're sitting there RPing in a building, so long as you are at least one room away from the entrance and no one is phasing on you, the only person who can hear your thoughts is the person(s) of whom you are RPing with.
Additionally, why would anyone sit there and use the THINK command if they even suspect someone of having Insight up if there is someone in the room that they don't like, don't trust, or don't know. Rhyot is a very seclusive person, very anti-social, and does not trust easily. It makes no sense why he would actively THINK something if he knows someone can hear his thoughts. Like Benedicto said, if it was someone he trusted, sure... that has its time/place, but it also means that the person understands Rhyot enough to not spout on to other people about his thoughts. Trust.
So yes, I would absolutely argue that there are instances where the ability of Insight, Sliver, and Monitor can absolutely affect someone's experience or ability to RP. What was it that Mati said that a lot of you seemed to agree with so much? Oh right...
If Insight had either a huge WP drain, or an ability to counter it, I would absolutely be fine with Insight/Sliver. But the fact that there is no counter other than "Don't use the THINK command in a group of people unless you want to subject yourself to their whims of their RP" is a huge hindrance on my gameplay and ability to RP as well. I would use the THINK command more again if I knew people couldn't just insert themselves into the mind of Rhyot whenever they so pleased just because they have a skill that allows them to do such. There's a huge amount of options here really.
1) Enable a skill/item to counter it (such as an enchantment or something) (best option)
2) Make the Insight ability cost a huge amount of WP drain. I'm talking something obscene like 500+ drain to avoid people from keeping it as an active defense for extended times (not exactly fixing the problem in large group settings, but it's an option)
3) Delete it.
But I'm probably in the minority. So... grains of salt, take what you will.
1. They forgot/didn't know THINK was even a thing until it ended up in an announce post, or started showing up in roleplay logs.
2. People shifted their behavior and started using it more often, because it meant that having an actual audience to the RP that goes into your Think command might be picked up by someone, and therefore was a bit more valuable/worthy of the mental investment that goes into writing up lovely thoughts.
I also think there's an inflated perception about how many people actually actively use insight beyond a few prominent roleplayers who actively post roleplay making heavy use of thoughts/insight (cough). Sib is one of these characters - she's been a heavy user of telepathy for over 200 years, she constantly used MIND SAPIENCE way before insight was even added to the game, and has a well-documented history of obsessively digging into people's brains and settling in for the long haul. It's... I mean, yeah, it's a thing.
I've never even considered someone using THINK (as in, actively thinking something, knowing that there are others who can read commands / read thoughts / watch your output, etc.) who was actively trying to get away with something subversive, and are now being 'hampered' or whatever because someone might see it. Again, no one is forcing you to use the command! This feels like a playstyle issue, or an out-of-whack expectations around RP blaming a tool that can only ever make things more interesting.
Look at it another way: how many things do you think about during a typical day? Conscious or unconscious? I can only answer for myself, but my mind goes a mile a minute even when I'm not busy. Stray thoughts, fleeting memories, active internal discussion and debate - it's a constant faucet of brain activity, at least for me. If Sib is even a fraction of that level of "mental busy", then she'd be constantly flooded with the same. Does that mean I should type out THINK for every instance of conscious or unconscious thought that enters her brain?
Roleplay is a storytelling medium - we're here to tell a story via our character, and we're selective about what we choose to spend our time on. I'm not going to roleplay out the background tasks that go into an actual life (bathroom breaks, child-rearing, eating/drinking, bathing, etc.) unless they're adding something to the story. On the same token, I'm not going to use THINK for something that doesn't supplement what's going on in some fashion, whether it's an active impulse that's floating to the top of her mind, something she's reminding herself internally, or some other nugget that adds to the understanding that other people have of her.
Let's pause and talk a little bit about what it means to be subversive. If Sib wanted to stab someone in secret, which emote would you say is more effective, here?
or...
Both emotes are technically correct and valid, but which one uses the storytelling medium to its advantage? The first emote is strictly and exactly describing what's going on, but the second one is only describing what the receiving character could actually perceive. Your mileage is going to vary - Sibatti isn't a very good Syssin, so she made a noise where a more skilled assassin probably would have been silent.
But take that analogy and consider your character's mental actions. Does everything that your character thinks about end up in the Think syntax? We've already established an answer to that that: no. Not even every character uses think, even - it's far more rare to see a Think come through than it is to see nothing! Does that mean they don't ever think anything, or have any internal dialogue at all? Also no!
So if we've established that you DON'T have to Think your character's every thoughts, and that the absence of Thinks does not equate to a character having zero thoughts, let's make another big brain move: you don't have to Think all things that your character goes through, but you CAN Think SOME things
Just like I'm not going to directly describe pulling out a dagger from Sib's dress and trying to clumsily stab your neck, I'm not going to have her broadcast her intentions at that same moment with >think "I'm gonna stab this clown!" because guess what - she's also being secretive there, too!
Which brings me to my next big brain suggestion... remember this scene in Inception?
The idea that your brain (where dreams are ultimately created, stored, and experienced) has layers to it is super fascinating. The notion that you have to protect your mind from invaders is even more fascinating. Canonically, we have measures in Aetolia to protect our minds from assault, so I wouldn't say it's a huge stretch to say that our characters already have an avenue of protecting themselves, mentally, from having their thoughts read, if they're actively prepped against it.
To use another example, Sib will be disciplined when she's in an area where she does not feel comfortable or safe. The thoughts that slip through would be harmless. Does that mean she's not thinking about whether or not @Qelres is really slaying it in that skirt they're wearing, or if it's a fashion faux pas? Is she not thinking about that cool Shamanic secret ritual she's been working on?
In another version of this event, Sib's still in this crowd of people and she's been smoking some of the good stuff. She's a little bit looser in the head, literally and figuratively. It might lead her to be negligent, and suddenly everyone knows both of those things.
Third scenario: Sib's in the crowd, she's sober, but she's actively being disingenuous, and starts throwing out decoy thoughts about things that are explicitly untrue, like how Lin told her she's in Enorian to secretly become a vampire again and it's devastating!
BONUS BIG BRAIN FOURTH SCENARIO: Playing the long game, Sib builds up a 'tell' by always thinking 'Dhar's balls' every time someone catches her in a lie, therefore leading everyone to believe they always know when she's lying... so that when she abruptly DOESN'T think 'Dhar's balls' in the middle of a critically important story moment, SHE GETS AWAY WITH CONCEALING THAT LIN IS NOW A VAMPIRE LIVING IN ENORIAN AAAAHHHHHH!!!
If you did it in front of a vampire, they'd respond "nice illusion" every. Single. Time. I'm sure they did it to mark themselves out as a stupendous badass, but all it did was teach us who not to pull out all the RP stops with.
I'm sorry you guys are being given a hard time! I'm in the camp that believes maybe you should get a simple config, for free, that keeps your thoughts to yourself. But a lot of us very much enjoy the enriching addition they bring and we'd be sad to see you go!
Edit: and to stay on topic. Axius, when in Monk, doesn't do the telepathy thing often, but does do the Mind Insight thing constantly, and he doesn't respond to -every- thought. But he does react when thoughts are obviously involving or directed at his personage. I can name an instance where he's called someone out, "You're wrong, and you need to understand the situation isn't -half- what you seem to believe it to be. And it stems from you listening to one source who gives half the info." And that resulted in some very interesting clash with the individual.
Both emotes are technically correct and valid, but which one uses the storytelling medium to its advantage? The first emote is strictly and exactly describing what's going on, but the second one is only describing what the receiving character could actually perceive. Your mileage is going to vary - Sibatti isn't a very good Syssin, so she made a noise where a more skilled assassin probably would have been silent. But take that analogy and consider your character's mental actions. Does everything that your character thinks about end up in the Think syntax? We've already established an answer to that that: no. Not even every character uses think, even - it's far more rare to see a Think come through than it is to see nothing! Does that mean they don't ever think anything, or have any internal dialogue at all? Also no! So if we've established that you DON'T have to Think your character's every thoughts, and that the absence of Thinks does not equate to a character having zero thoughts, let's make another big brain move: you don't have to Think all things that your character goes through, but you CAN Think SOME things Just like I'm not going to directly describe pulling out a dagger from Sib's dress and trying to clumsily stab your neck, I'm not going to have her broadcast her intentions at that same moment with >think "I'm gonna stab this clown!" because guess what - she's also being secretive there, too! Which brings me to my next big brain suggestion... remember this scene in Inception?
To clarify my original point: When an outside force that is not player-driven is inserted into the narrative, the ability to hear thoughts (even surface ones) becomes much more tumultuous. How do you give feedback to the volunteer that your character may be interested in whatever is happening without being overheard? How do you create a scenario of duplicity that does not invite immediate intervention or reaction from those around you who may have the ability to hear thoughts?
Monks, Zealots, and Vampires having access to these options do give them fun and unique ways to respond to these situations, but as pointed out, not everyone is going to be in those classes with said defenses or targeted in a way to take advantage of them at all times.
To use a recent example as to why I even made this thread: The RP logs about the knife. Saidenn's initial reaction was to listen to the knife, try to gain information, push deeper into whatever was happening, seek out the 'power' and whatever knowledge it held. Him knowing that others can hear thoughts as he can, however, and being aware of the vast amount of people who now can, he is careful to shield his thoughts to ensure that this desire is not known, especially when 'trapped' inside the Shaman (enemy) guildhall.
How, then, do we communicate to the Celani assisting in this event that what our character is saying to other characters and what their true desires or internal monologue may be without running the risk of IMMEDIATELY being found out? Do we trust other people to handwave away the fact that this character is saying "I am fine, I am in control" while internally thinking, "Yes, I agree with you oh knife of murder-y power, tell me more of your secrets please."? This is where, I think, the dangers of insight come into play when attempting to let our volunteers craft storylines that ask our characters to be duplicitous or gives them the opportunity to be just that. It only takes one person with insight to point and say, "X is lying, I can hear their thoughts."
I like the idea of a config. This way when we're presented with a scenario when we're attempting to communicate to the mcguffin or individual of the moment that our character is wanting to explore x thing, we have that opportunity. There is still some onus on the rper to give a chance for the other characters to possibly sniff out their conniving ways, but it does create a more robust environment for deceit.
E: I also used forced thoughts a lot in Imperian. It was nice cause some people would get upset and go 'hey this was clearly you messing with my head', others would be confused, others would play along. Good times.
1. The think command itself
2. A think command that's borne more of a desire to communicate intent to a GM type character (the Celani, in this case), that may or may not be OOC.
I'm reminded of "whispers" in D&D where I want to do something but I don't want the party to know, but the GM absolutely needs to know in order to make the story work. Celani do have more tools to watch commands - you wouldn't even really need to use Think in this instance, but simply any command at all, even if it doesn't have an actual syntax ingame.
I'm wondering if there's a way to make this even more clear, though. Something akin to Think, but one that's more of a signal to the GM.
Edit: I'm leery of the CONFIG route, because that's another thing that people would need to remember to toggle on/off. I would worry that this adds additional complexity/room for error. You turn it off one day and never turn it back on, that would suck. In lieu of a config, I would almost want it to be a different command altogether, like THINKSECRET.
Using the DnD analogy: It feels almost like someone being able to force a failure on your deceit rolls.
Just like if Sib were in the Syssin or Archivist guildhall, I would expect to be in a risky situation myself. I shouldn't be able to sneak around and break into their chambers physically.
Deceit is great and all, but that doesn't change the fact that you are still removing a subset of RP away from individuals who don't want to be listened in on, but still want to use the THINK command. If we REALLY want to get nitty gritty, you all wanted to spout on about consent with RP with darker themes, your character's thoughts are no different. If I don't want you hearing what Rhyot has to think, I should be able to hide them. No chance of failure, no deceit. Just 100% Rhyot's own thoughts.
You don't need a new command, you don't need a config. Make it an enchantment that must be worn. That way, if you -want- your thoughts to be heard by anyone OTHER than Celani, you simply need to remove that item.
Call it Mantra that while worn, all thoughts are hidden from view except by the most powerful of Divine.
If you don't want your character's thoughts heard, don't engage with the Think syntax. You could literally code an alias that takes two seconds to redirect 'Think ' into THINKBUTSECRET
(Illuminai): Saltz says, "Moxie is just doing the Moxie thing to do, often misinterpreted."
(Tells): Sir Iames Gallant, the Executioner tells you, "The one Illuminai beyond prayer, I swear."
Valingar: "How could a daughter of me, the most noble man in the south, be so heartless?"
(Tells): Haven Locke, Illuminai Khimaira tells you, "Be that as it may, I've also seen the strength in you. You can take care of yourself."
First off, I don't think Insight/Think/Sliver/etc is inherently dangerous. I understand that there are players who enjoy having their thoughts listened in on. However, you're disregarding those who DON'T want their thoughts listened in on but still want to be able to participate in the THINK mechanic. I just don't want normal players to be able to see Rhyot's thoughts and I am QUITE sure I'm not the only one. Sure, I could code an alias that utilizes echo or whatever, but then it's removing the opportunity for Celani to see what Rhyot is thinking and thus removing THEIR chance to be able to interact, because as I mentioned, God RP is some of the most amazing RP in the game.
Secondly, don't use the argument of "If you don't want X to happen, then don't do Y." Many people get their minds in a twist over that level of extremism in Aetolia. Furthermore, that's not conducive to a proper debate/conversation. (Look at the recent Pet Peeves or Midnight Age threads) So please, let's not.
Third off, let's use a situational thing.
Rhyot and Siba are in a bar (hypothetically). Siba unskillfully pulls a dagger from her dress to attempt to stab Rhyot. Rhyot is going to assume that Siba has insight and will thus not even THINK (enabling a form of constructive criticism to an enemy) "This crazy bloodbag needs to learn stealth better." To which my following response would be some sort of emote about catching her in the act or something (because I'm having fun since his thoughts are not impeded). But since his thoughts ARE impeded on... instead, he's just going to walk out while saying 'Mmm'. This leaves you (as the player of Sibatti) incredibly unsatisfied because now you've been robbed of ALL RP instead of being able to go with it. Why? Because if Rhyot can't protect his thoughts, why should he even give Sibatti the time of day with defending himself? He'll just walk out and THEN think "That idiotic crazy bloodbag needs to learn stealth better." Now, -I- as the player can do both Think and leave in the same context, but sometimes it's fun to use think and NOT have people intrude on those thoughts. I do it often when Rhyot is studying. Let's take out Siba and throw in any member of the Syssin or Archivist. Rhyot is going to think X (no spoilers because people meta all the time), there's no reason for him to ACTIVELY think X because he knows or will presume that his thoughts are not safe due to Insight. This takes away from -my- enjoyment of RP knowing that I can't RP without someone inputting themselves into my character's thought process/mind. If I want your character to hear Rhyot's thought process, you'd be an ALLY or he would get to know you better to build that trust.
And... as you all agreed with Mati:
Moxie has a good idea and I'd pay for it (I bought the bubble wand too), but an Enchantment is just as much of a good idea too and not as expensive or something needed for RL money.
https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/3754/volunteer-ama#latest
You will see that many volunteers who answered exalted the usage of think in getting their attention or engaging interaction.
Just trying to figure out how deep this rabbit hole goes because this might be the craziest argument I've seen made yet on this topic.
I can't weigh in on the rest, but I will absolutely confirm that using the think command to give us hints and feelings to play off of that your character might not outright say out loud, or in the presence of others, is a blessing to have in the RP tool arsenal.
Here's the thing.
Some of the richest, most complex RP I've had in this game- and there has been a lot- has involved the use of thinks to pass along or receive critical details, or emotions, or memories in a way that simply would not feasibly fit into the form of an emote. Advocating for this to be just deleted, because you want to type the words your own character is thinking without people seeing, is an irresponsible and frankly cruel avenue to pursue. Saying 'I don't like that you have this so you shouldn't be able to have it' is immature. Instead, we should be thinking 'yes, and'. As in, 'yes, these people can read thoughts, and it IC makes sense for them to do so. What is an IC thing we can add, because my character would be taking steps against mental intrusion?'.
I'm not going to say not to use thinks- sometimes, writing out the words on the screen helps solidify part of your character, or build the world to you. That's valid, and understandable. But the solution is not to nerf insight away.