The Midnight Age?

Jhin

This topic may be sensitive to some and my intention is not to make anyone upset in this post but rather be transparent with my thoughts. I've played Aetolia for a long time, over 15 years and I've seen a lot of changes. I may be speaking from nostalgia here but I remember a time in Aetolia that it was dark and that darkness was attractive. I never thought that the midnight age was meant to be a land of carebears. It seems nowadays Aetolia has adopted a lot of real life politics into an RP fantasy game. When I log into Aetolia I want to bite someone neck and possibly devour their corpse because they were too kind. I feel like the polarizing nature of the midnight age is what made Aetolia, Aetolia. I introduce this topic because I want people to think about and add to the discussion on their personal views of where the Midnight Age is at currently and how we can better the authentic experience of the realms.

Personally I don't come to Aetolia to learn whats on Joe Bidens agenda or any other politician in the world. I come here to fantasize a different world. Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia. So just want to hear peoples perspectives. Thank you.

Konnorn

I completely agree. I understand some subjects are touchy for some people, that is absolutely understandable, but this is a fantasy rpg that is supposed to be dark. Back when I started playing we had people roaming the Prelatorian highway to rob innocent people passing by. Or people being kidnapped and held for ransom. We had people pushing boundaries, in the RIGHT way, and it was OK. The world was a lot darker back then and it was OK. I miss that time.

Elene

Everyone is conscientious about each other's feelings out of the game these days, and it really makes me frown because it highly influences the way people play their characters. I have honestly seen and have been attempted to be coerced into playing nicer, which is 80% a factor why I don't particularly seek out several individuals for RP anymore.

I don't think we should shy away from the darker aspects of what makes Aetolia so appealing. It is the Midnight Age after all, where Shadow's intrusion onto the land is a very real thing, where brothels and corruption and flagrant slavery is a thing. Such concepts shouldn't be allowed to take a backseat just because it skirts along people's sensitivities. I do think there needs to be a balance, but it shouldn't be outright discouraged.

Malcanthet

It feels that way to me as well. When I came back and slavery was being abolished from BL my first thought was "WTF?". This is a fantasy game. Of course I'm against slavery IRL but that was a part of BL culture. If you can't handle that facet of it, don't play a Bloodlochian? The game feels like it's transformed a bit. I loved it for the gritty darkness, and that does still exist to some extent, but I do see the game adopting some of the current cultural shift as stated above. I am pretty sure a majority of us are adults, so it shouldn't be hard to find a way to avoid the things/people that make us uncomfortable. 

Fyrren

When I started playing, you could get PKed by BL city/house/guild leaders for saying or doing the wrong thing and it was great because it really immersed me in that side of the game. You are playing the undead/shadow/vampires so why would you be nice? We are the bad guys. We do bad things. But at the same time, whenever I spoke with any of these players OOC they were always the nicest and most helpful people and always went out of their way to help you get into the game, be it with understanding that side of the roleplay or dealing with combat etc.

Now it is hard to play this kind of more brutal character because people get turned off from it so quickly and easily or get offended by that kind of roleplay and it feels like Bloodloch has lost most of its culture due to this. And don't get me started on how we let the living join Bloodloch now...

Benedicto

I've had this conversation with a few people now and it's interesting to see other peoples thoughts on it. I think the issue is, as highlighted by @Elene, that there are players who are unable to disassociate the politics and roleplay of the game, its lore and its themes from real life. I experienced a moment of amusement when Bloodloch fought against El'Jazira to abolish slavery as it's something you'd have expected of the Templar and Enorian.

I always associated those who were in a city on a sliding scale with Enorian being at the 'lawful good' end of the spectrum, through to Duiran, then Spinesreach until you reached Bloodloch as 'chaotic evil'. At the moment, it very much feels like we don't get past 'chaotic neutral' at best, as Bloodloch has moved to try and occupy the same, or similar space as Spinesreach. Bloodloch, to me at least, has always represented 'evil' and that was echoed in its themes and the classes it held. However, now it feels like there has been a significant dilution of what it previously represented and as I've interacted with some of Bloodlochs citizens as Benedicto, a lot of them want to be perceived as 'good' or 'innocent' people. This confuses me because I'm pretty sure the blurb of the guilds, classes and the themes of Bloodloch all run completely contrary to that and it seems extremely counter-intuitive to me at least.

I do think it's a shame because we've lost quite an integral part of what makes Aetolia balanced in terms of representation of roleplay. Bloodlochian's should be allowed to be evil and do inherently evil things without being sniped at by their own tether on the understanding that this is a roleplaying game. There are a couple of players who currently are very enjoyable character villains to interact with, such as Elene and Naos. As a 'good' character, it actually gives me something to bounce off of in roleplay instead of twiddling my thumbs with individuals who live in Bloodloch but seem to share the same ideologies as the Templar and Enorian. We're in charge of this story and this world of ours that our characters live in instead of being reliant on the administration to provide threats from outside of the PMP etc to give us an enemy with a contentious ideology to be in conflict with.

Rhyot

Back when I started playing we had people roaming the Prelatorian highway to rob innocent people passing by.

2 points...

1) You mean, more conflict and less safety nets?

2) why would you rob anyone? Gold is so stupidly easy to get that people are sitting on literal millions!!! You know... the whole reason why gold was nerfed to begin with???

people being kidnapped and held for ransom.

You mean, more conflict??? Oh right, need consent for that. And that requires some OOC communication which KINDA starts a streamlined process of -exactly- where the RP is gonna go so you can have predetermined the outcome or at least talk about the outcome. And if the outcome isn't what you wanted, you issue for harassment and non-consensual RP... which may or may not be upheld. Oh, but wait... the admin have made a decision that all RP and emotes are consented upon, so why would anyone agree to this dark RP unless it reaches an outcome they desire when it's primarily conflict-centric?

I don't think we should shy away from the darker aspects of what makes Aetolia so appealing.

You mean we need to have conflict, right??

you could get PKed by BL city/house/guild leaders for saying or doing the wrong thing

So.... conflict???

Now it is hard to play this kind of more brutal character because people get turned off from it so quickly and easily or get offended by that kind of roleplay

This might be because of an AVERSION to said conflict.

Bloodlochian's should be allowed to be evil and do inherently evil things without being sniped at

So... conflict??

----------------------------

Everything in thread, spoken by *counts the posters* 6 people are all conflict centric. I hate saying this, but y'all are the minority. You all might want conflict, less safety nets, and more dark RP.... but the majority do not. Sure, you could argue that I'm picking straws, but let's take a look at historical things:

War system was erased and to this day is both wanted and not wanted because of possible conflict griefing.
Moghedu event with Nesventesh was complained about.
Three Widows War was complained about.
Mitrine War was a crapshoot of bloody complaints and skewed ambiguity on BOTH sides.
War of Night was complained about because it gave vampires an advantage.
The noon sun was complained about because it instakilled vampires.
The Baelak Shipbreaker event was complained about because it blew up Enorian.
Theft is CONSISTENTLY complained about and abhorred... and players were even blasted by admins when comms were "stolen" from Enorian. No RP, immediate admin solution.
Tainhelm Bloodhunts were complained about.
Orrery was blatantly ignored as a conflict point until Tiur gave rewards for it, and even then it's somewhat ignored because one side or the other has overwhelming numbers. This same lack of conflict contest extends to lessers/majors due to overwhelming numbers.
Raids have all but been abolished after people threw themselves into guards for 5 hours to kill them all, resulting in complaints about "forced RP" and/or "impeding RP"
Every. Single. Apocalypse level. Event is complained about (The Bloom, Chaos War, Leviathan, Ohlsana, Ati)
Abhorash being a beast of a baddy was complained about (and still often is).
Oh, and let's not forget my favorite thread where Bamathis was equated to fascism and Nazi-ism.


As much as I want to agree with you all, I have to point out that all behaviors are reminiscent of ever changing cultures. We live in a time and culture where people would rather RP in their own little groups than extend out of their comfort zones. We play in a time where anything that goes against the grain of being able to do what WE want with an outcome that WE desire is met with hostility, anger, and outcries of complaints.

While Aetolia might be labeled as "Midnight Age", the majority don't want that type of behavior anymore. They want to sit back, chill, sip their Starbucks coffee and roleplay to THEIR comfort levels and THEIR hearts desire. The majority of players have conflict aversion, even if they spout off about wanting said conflict.

It's very confusing, but also entertaining.

Seurimas

I am not very in tune with the RP or metagame of Aetolia as a whole to say for sure, but I don't think RL politics is the main driving factor. A lot of it seems to boil down to what Benedicto said: there's a lot of good and innocent people in the world. Not everyone wants to be a villain. It's a tough job because:

1. Doing villainous things IC can earn you OOC recriminations you really didn't ask for or deserve. This doesn't have to be political at all. Some people just cannot tell the difference and, sometimes, IC villainous things are legitimate inconveniences to players OOCly.
   
2. Even if you take all of the above to mean "let's be villainous to NPCs and just ignore other players", you are still in trouble. Doing villainous things often puts you in direct conflict with the "heroes". The inclination to meat out immediate PK justice for villainy has probably killed more villainy than any other person's feelings or politics. Not every prospective villain is also a super capable fighter. I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, but it's a big factor, unfortunately.
   
3. Because of the above, keeping allies as a villain is hard. Your city and guild are going to be cross with you for causing trouble, more often than not. This is doubly true if you're losing more fights than you're winning.
   
4. Even if you're only being villainous to NPCs in your own backyard, far from the PK-starved eyes of the world, would evil RP behind closed doors actually contribute to the "Midnight Age" feel? Probably not. It's not very validating, either. Half the fun of being a villain is that other people know you're a villain and give you safe "heat" for being so, rather than actual dislike. As described above, though, "heat" translates very readily into "being PKed" because just like being a villain is your character, being a hero is someone else's.
   
5. The other half of the fun of villainy is reaping its rewards. Unfortunately, villainy doesn't pay ever since theft became veritably verboten. I'd love if slave trading became a Hobby skill or something. Maybe a little risqué to cast a player as slave trader, but it would sweeten the pot of villainy.
   

All in all, why bother? Why stick to your slavery roots at all, when there's not a whole lot of reward for it and a whole lot of hassle? Better to be the misunderstood villain who's actually a hero in their own way, or sit off to the sides of the issue and declare yourself above it all.

Iadra

Slavery is part and parcel of a lot of fantasy settings and it's a large part of most historical human societies.

I can understand how adult topics such as violence, sex, smoking, drug use or slavery can be sensitive topics but that is why we have trigger warnings on shows, games and books.

If you're put off by drug use or Scottish people then you know not to watch trainspotting. You don't ask for trainspotting to remove all references to drugs and Scottish people.

Legyn

I think this is one of the reasons why expanding the concept of open PK areas would be good. Create an area that characters from Bloodloch could raid for slaves and that characters from Enorian could defend, and enforce 1v1 like the Hunting Grounds so that it doesn't turn into a numbers game like foci and the Orrery do.

The Vortex, the Fracture, the Sect, and the Hunting Grounds are a very good structure for conflict. The basic concept just needs to be developed a little more and spiced up to make it more interesting. The rewards don't need to be mechanical. Rewards that enable RP without having any other tangible benefit would be great.

Drystin

It seems nowadays Aetolia has adopted a lot of real life politics into an RP fantasy game.

First off, this isn't even an opinion. It's an irrefutable fact, so lets get all the cards on the table. As @Rhyot pointed out, and I saw with my own eyes, Bamathis was equated to fascism and Nazi-ism and the volunteer was likewise personally attacked. While that was abhorrant, what was even more disgusting was that a huge portion of our community stood by silently and allowed it. As @Benedicto said, this is -our- community. If that sort of thing is allowed to happen without a massive outcry, don't be shocked that your deity is dormant for years at a time and no one wants to be a volunteer.

This is just my opinion but I've always considered the best RPers to be people who are playing characters that are drastically different from their real selves, who put my character into challenging situations and are able to trigger emotions with what they do. There is a character who comes to mind that does a very good job at this. I don't know this guy OOC at all, I've only ever interacted with him ICly.

Point blank, he makes you hate him. Not just your character, but he makes YOU hate him. Anyone who can provoke an emotional response from you (good or bad) with their RP is a VERY good roleplayer in my book. I remember one of the first encounters I had with him, I walked away kinda pissed off. About an hour later I had to laugh because I realized how silly it was to be pissed off about how a fictional character (his) treated another fictional character (mine). This is something we're all guilty of at some point or another and its to be expected because we get attached to our characters. What is NOT excusable though is to walk away from a situation like this and never realize your failure in controlling your own emotions, blaming that person behind the character for the emotional response that they triggered in you, then going so far as to attack that person OOCly based on how they've roleplayed. I've seen this a lot since I first started playing Aetolia and the fact of the matter is, people that respond like this and never see where they erred are simply bad roleplayers. We should never be angry at a player who got us emotional with their character. we should commend them because it takes skill to roleplay with the realism necessary to fool another person's emotions.

I agree with @Jhin. At present, Aetolia is a watered down land of snowflakes, carebears and unicorn kisses that has completely lost its identity. Bloodloch doesn't scare me, Duiran isn't "savage", Enorian has naughty secrets that would make Severn blush, and I think Spinesreach is just twiddling it's thumbs and waiting for something meaningful to do. Most vampires are weaklings that only drink NPC blood because they haven't the skill to take it from anyone competent. Its generally safe for non-coms to hunt in the fracture and vortex because no one wants to hurt their fragile feelings and get issued, and no one wants to do foci battles unless the odds are stacked in their favor because they're too emotionally weak to risk a death that costs them nothing except a little pride.

I know this sounds harsh, but this is the state of our game. We need to be kind and decent people to each other out of character no doubt, but in character anything should go. This is a foundational principal of roleplaying guys.. its kinda weird that so many people who have played this game for so long need to be reminded of what roleplay and immersion is. Evil characters shouldn't be attacked OOCly for being evil or pressured to be less evil. As @Benedicto pointed out, good characters need evil characters to make their character more relevant. Likewise, good characters shouldn't be attacked OOCly for fighting evil. That is what their character is all about. If someone is RPing in a way that you aren't comfortable with, then simply don't RP with them.

I 100% understand that there are real life things going on that are sensitive. If any of that causes me to be so sensitive that I'm trying to force other people in this game to play their character differently than they want to or worse yet, expect the admin to change the game in order to accommodate my sensitivity.. that's when I know I need to take a break, or just remove myself from whatever the situation is. Its not a fair expectation to ask those around you to tip toe around your feelings. Its borderline insane though to expect people to tip toe around your feelings while they're playing a fictional character in a fictional universe. Lets get back to the roots of what roleplay and immersion are and do our best to leave our real life baggage at the door when we login to this game.

Jhin

@Legyn The raids remind me of Ciem. Haven’t thought about that in a while. And I agree gifts don’t need to be monetary or mechanical advantages, but even fun things like colorful items to wear or colored shields/weapons etc.

Jhin

@Drystin all I have to say is wow. Everything you said is 100% fact. I love it. What happened to Aetolia being a place to have fun and to explore your imagination with others. Everyone has RL issues but Aetolia is a game and we’re suppose to have fun and use our imagination.

Also just a sidebar with OOC communications, I think a new precedent should be set. I find it to be tasteless to discuss in-game intentions ooc. Why not just talk about them in game. It seems that we've gotten lazy and want to plan OOC and implement IC and that way we don't have to run into any IC consequences. If all plans are made ooc then how can any character be punished, confronted or generate any conflict.

If everyone would direct people IC to talk about IC issues then we'll see small improvements imo.

Rijetta

Jhin said:

This topic may be sensitive to some and my intention is not to make anyone upset in this post but rather be transparent with my thoughts. I've played Aetolia for a long time, over 15 years and I've seen a lot of changes. I may be speaking from nostalgia here but I remember a time in Aetolia that it was dark and that darkness was attractive. I never thought that the midnight age was meant to be a land of carebears. It seems nowadays Aetolia has adopted a lot of real life politics into an RP fantasy game. When I log into Aetolia I want to bite someone neck and possibly devour their corpse because they were too kind. I feel like the polarizing nature of the midnight age is what made Aetolia, Aetolia. I introduce this topic because I want people to think about and add to the discussion on their personal views of where the Midnight Age is at currently and how we can better the authentic experience of the realms.

Personally I don't come to Aetolia to learn whats on Joe Bidens agenda or any other politician in the world. I come here to fantasize a different world. Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia. So just want to hear peoples perspectives. Thank you.

Sibatti

Dunno where y'all are RPing at these days but I don't have this problem.


Also --- man, we've finally reached the point where we're comparing Aetolia to real-world American politics. Pack it up folks!

Aisling

Iesid

This thread is fascinating.

Aetolia is not 'dropping RL politics into a fantasy game'. It's just that medieval policy is making a comeback IRL when it should stay firmly rooted in fantasy settings where it belongs. I think anyone who believes that the admin are shoehorning politics into the game needs to maybe question if they have it backwards.

Perhaps we should stop framing genocide, slavery, destruction of the natural order and etc in the trappings of heroism or as things 'good guys' do. If something is abhorrent, don't complain when other characters around you refuse to normalize it or accept it.

My character once advocated for genocide as an easy means to solving a discussion in Duiran. I don't still have him go around claiming it was the right idea and I don't get mad on the forums when Mhun characters are disgusted with him when or if they find out.

Mati

Hi, I've not read all the comments and frankly don't care to because I know it will just make me frustrated; disregard my comment if you think that disqualifies me. But I have also played the game for 15+ years, on Spirit, Shadow, and Pools.

Please do not equate 'darkness' with "disregarding ooc feelings" and please don't equate it with roleplaying things that have very clear OOC weight and parallels without first checking in with your very real roleplaying partner. There is a very obvious difference between acting out, say, a vivisection (something likely no one playing has experienced) and religious/racial/gender-based/sexuality-based/what-have-you persecution.

I regularly participate in frankly quite dark and heavy roleplay while, yes, checking in oocly to make sure the other person is aware of what they're signed up for! It's as simple as content warnings! Which I understand people also like to get up in arms about but it's literally as basic as saying "hey there's sexual violence here"! It's good to know! It's showing basic respect for the human on the other side of the screen! You playing a "dark" character does not exempt you from considering this other person, as much as PKing someone does not exempt you from considering that other person (hence the issue system), and as much as roleplay does not inherently staunch you playing a "dark" character or having OOC compassion! Why are these being conflated!

Exclamation points aside, I would ask that people just double check the content they are wanting to roleplay, and the participants. It's truly not the end of the world if someone's personal comfort level is not compatible with yours. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to stop your roleplay, it just means that you care that the human being, again, on the other side of the screen, also trying to have fun in their spare time and not necessarily wanting to experience a mirror to very real world persecution in their fantasy world, does not have to confront it here too.

There's no grand conspiracy to make you roleplay flowers and rainbows. It absolutely is still what you make it. If you're not finding the gravity you want, that's on you to find the people who will play in that sandbox with you, as it always has been. Why is it being considered a bad thing that we are having compassion for our fellow human beings and their unknown experiences and backgrounds. Thanks. Bye.

Jhin

Mati said:

You playing a "dark" character does not exempt you from considering this other person, as much as PKing someone does not exempt you from considering that other person (hence the issue system), and as much as roleplay does not inherently staunch you playing a "dark" character or having OOC compassion! Why are these being conflated!

@Mati I mostly agree with you Mati but I feel lines are blurred in some areas. You mentioned a "dark" character doesn't exempt you from considering the other person as in showing OOC compassion. But, how often do people conflate the ideas of OOC compassion and likability. In real life not everyone will show you compassion and in real life not everyone will like you. So are we trying to build a Midnight Age where everyone gets along?

While I believe you should consider the person you're RPing or even PKing with. How far does consideration go? Some people believe if you do something that they don't like, you didn't consider them. So is the expectation in Aetolia to do what everyone likes otherwise you're not considering others? I don't think anyone would want to exist in that environment. Which honestly brings up a topic of freedom of expression. In Aetolia are you free to RP based on your imagination or is your RP restricted by what people like and dislike?

These types of issues in my opinion have made conflict in Aetolia less free. What funny to me is how someone will issue and won't ignore. If the problem is that big to where you have to involve the admin in an Issue. Why not just ignore them? Actually there's an idea if you issue someone, it forces you to ignore them for however amount of time. The two individuals obviously cant handle issues by communicating so they might as well ignore one another.

Sibatti

Jhin said:

Mati said:

You playing a "dark" character does not exempt you from considering this other person, as much as PKing someone does not exempt you from considering that other person (hence the issue system), and as much as roleplay does not inherently staunch you playing a "dark" character or having OOC compassion! Why are these being conflated!

@Mati I mostly agree with you Mati but I feel lines are blurred in some areas. You mentioned a "dark" character doesn't exempt you from considering the other person as in showing OOC compassion. But, how often do people conflate the ideas of OOC compassion and likability. In real life not everyone will show you compassion and in real life not everyone will like you. So are we trying to build a Midnight Age where everyone gets along?

While I believe you should consider the person you're RPing or even PKing with. How far does consideration go? Some people believe if you do something that they don't like, you didn't consider them. So is the expectation in Aetolia to do what everyone likes otherwise you're not considering others? I don't think anyone would want to exist in that environment. Which honestly brings up a topic of freedom of expression. In Aetolia are you free to RP based on your imagination or is your RP restricted by what people like and dislike?

These types of issues in my opinion have made conflict in Aetolia less free. What funny to me is how someone will issue and won't ignore. If the problem is that big to where you have to involve the admin in an Issue. Why not just ignore them? Actually there's an idea if you issue someone, it forces you to ignore them for however amount of time. The two individuals obviously cant handle issues by communicating so they might as well ignore one another.

I've literally never had a problem RPing any of Sib's avenues - and her avenues have taken things to some very dark places that would absolutely trigger trauma in others.

You can and should be compassionate towards the player behind the character, full stop.

If you can't get along with a person and it comes to the point of an issue necessitating a resolution, then something has gone very wrong between two people to bring it to that point - in which case, basic logic dictates that you can't communicate with that person anyways and you're better off not being involved.

If you find that you are a person constantly being issued (not sure if that's the case for you, but just saying it in general), then I would say that person needs to look inward.

Vharen

give baby minion now

Saidenn

Not to discount anyone's personal experiences or their personal circles of rp, but I do believe the thread is addressing global RP and the trends happening globally.

As mentioned, Bama was driven off due to perceptions. We have had multiple events curtailed or ended early due to upset and emails directly to Matt or Jeremy. Dark roleplay with violent, dark, or twisted themes do happen, but for the most part, they are limited to specific circles of individuals and no further.

I agree that compassion should always be a consideration, however, the landing page and the "about" section of the game should bring with it a certain acceptance with it, too. That does not currently seem to be the case.

Should the character creation include a blurb about agreeing to themes, or more, being more explicit in what the themes may cover?

Separately, I also agree there is a general aversion to conflict. World pk outside of areas that are considered 'open' pk does not happen. Now, this is not an invitation to go on a murder spree, but I really do not see rivals or nemeses used in a way to mean anything. Even RP fights sometimes get people giving their two cents into how they are unnecessary or unfair or what-have-you.

Again, this is not discounting individual experiences. As with any game, YMMV, but on a GLOBAL level, the game is soft. And I do not blame the admin, at all. In the past year, alone, the admin have had to step in twice to two separate orgs (or more, but I am only aware of two). This is not accounting for the myriad of other times they have had to step in to stop Aetolia from shitting the bed. Please tell me I am wrong and correct me, but from what I have seen, in general, Aetolia does a pretty poor job of policing its own community and enforcing its own themes in ways that are constructive to the entire playerbase.

Lin

I don't have a lot to contribute to this thread. This feels like a prime example of how different Aetolia can be depending on the company you keep. Some of you guys are describing a completely different game from the one I play.

I guess like... if the people you're trying to tell a story with aren't vibing with you, do what the rest of us do: call it a bad match, and go try someone else?

Rijetta

Hold on. In the opening post, you said aetolia is a fantasy game and shouldn't have too much real life injected. In your reply to Mati, you claim that in real life, people won't always be compassionate.

Which is it?

Mati

Jhin said:

You playing a "dark" character does not exempt you from considering this other person, as much as PKing someone does not exempt you from considering that other person (hence the issue system), and as much as roleplay does not inherently staunch you playing a "dark" character or having OOC compassion! Why are these being conflated!

@Mati I mostly agree with you Mati but I feel lines are blurred in some areas. You mentioned a "dark" character doesn't exempt you from considering the other person as in showing OOC compassion. But, how often do people conflate the ideas of OOC compassion and likability. In real life not everyone will show you compassion and in real life not everyone will like you. So are we trying to build a Midnight Age where everyone gets along? While I believe you should consider the person you're RPing or even PKing with. How far does consideration go? Some people believe if you do something that they don't like, you didn't consider them. So is the expectation in Aetolia to do what everyone likes otherwise you're not considering others? I don't think anyone would want to exist in that environment. Which honestly brings up a topic of freedom of expression. In Aetolia are you free to RP based on your imagination or is your RP restricted by what people like and dislike? These types of issues in my opinion have made conflict in Aetolia less free. What funny to me is how someone will issue and won't ignore. If the problem is that big to where you have to involve the admin in an Issue. Why not just ignore them? Actually there's an idea if you issue someone, it forces you to ignore them for however amount of time. The two individuals obviously cant handle issues by communicating so they might as well ignore one another.

"So are we trying to build a Midnight Age where everyone gets along?" No, I'm trying to build a game in which players can all feel comfortable and safe exploring what they want to roleplay--nothing more, nothing less.

"How far does that consideration go?" As far as it needs to for like, basic human decency that should frankly also exist irl. Why is irl being made the benchmark when it's also pretty clear that people have the same issues there. I'm not sure why we're pretending that consideration is some kind of burden to carry when it should kind of be your basic operating mode when playing in a Multi-User Dungeon. If it's not, that's on you, not on me for wanting it. We coexist in this space. Like it or not, other peoples' enjoyment of it and engagement kind of affect your own. Again, it truly is not some huge immersion-breaking thing to just shoot a quick "Hey, are you comfortable with x?" I've done it many times. I've had it done to me. If anything, if you try it, you might actually find yourself more apt to find new and exciting lines of RP because you know the other person is down for whatever and actually having fun with it too. 

"In Aetolia are you free to RP based on your imagination or is your RP restricted by what people like and dislike?" Again, false conflation. You are free to roleplay your imagination, but other people are not obligated to like it, and they're certainly not obligated to tolerate it when it draws from IRL lines of bigotry and discrimination. Honestly, that's just lazy RP at that point. But if you're REALLY itching to roleplay that, I guarantee there are people out there for that, too, and you will probably be much happier playing with them than inflicting it on people that it distresses oocly.

"The two individuals obviously can't handle issues by communicating so they might as well ignore one another." Absolutely! That's what I mean when I say if you're wanting to roleplay certain "edgier" themes, find other people with similar ideals for your sandbox. They exist, I promise. And it is not always a personal attack on you if your roleplay doesn't jive with mine. Unless, like, it's literally a personal attack on my identity as a person just trying to play this game and have fun. Which, also again, then we have bigger problems here. Like why are we arguing for people to be able to have fascist/racist/sexist/whetever-ist roleplay without consequence. That should always have consequence, much like irl.

Your freedom to express yourself and have fun ends when it infringes upon my freedom to express myself and have fun. 

Jhin

@Rijetta Are you suggesting that Aetolia should be a polar opposite to reality?

Sryaen

I have absolutely no problem finding people to explore dark, violent RP with. Mechanically, sure there are some things that we can't do anymore (start fires, war, etc), but you don't need to rely on global events to dive into the darker aspects of what Aetolia has to offer.

Bloodloch also just got done quelling an uprising and Elene cut off their guard captain at the kneecaps with a bardiche. Then they put the whole village to the torch and piled the bodies in a heap. So.. ????

When it comes to consequences and certain types of RP I engage in, I tend to save some of the more questionable stuff (violent, vulgar language, torture, etc) for people that I'm comfortable with. Because I know them well enough to know their boundaries and they also know mine. And I think that's perfectly okay in this day and age where we all want to have fun and enjoy the game, but also be cognizant of the players around us.

I think @Mati summed it up pretty perfectly with her closing statement and I wholeheartedly agree.

Xarian

At one point I played an ebil Aetolian, so I'll chime in.

'I come here to fantasize a different world. Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia.'

'Lets get back to the roots of what roleplay and immersion are and do our best to leave our real life baggage at the door when we login to this game.'

'Its not a fair expectation to ask those around you to tip toe around your feelings. Its borderline insane though to expect people to tip toe around your feelings while they're playing a fictional character in a fictional universe'

'Bamathis was equated to fascism and Nazi-ism and the volunteer was likewise personally attacked. While that was abhorrant, what was even more disgusting was that a huge portion of our community stood by silently and allowed it.'

These sentences in particular interested me, and I want to unpack them.

'Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia'

What are some other possible ways to read this sentence?

'Slaves [aren't real] in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia'
'Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but slaves [should exist] in Aetolia [and nothing should be read into why I'm so adamant about this]'
'Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, [and I can use the pretense of talking about a fantasy game to own the libs]'

Whose 'real life baggage' are you asking someone to put aside when you ask the 'Other' player to stop being so sensitive about slavery? Are there any members of society, your fellow players, to whom it seems incorrect to tell them 'it's just a fantasy' in regards to slavery? Think for a moment, who might belong to that group.

Obviously this sort of criticism doesn't apply only to slavery. So maybe you want to ask, 'Oh my god Xarian, do you and Joe Biden's cancel culture agenda want to remove everything problematic from the game?' Well, no, not necessarily. But maybe the people least worth listening to about problematic issues are the ones who have the privilege of not having to deal with them in real life. So I'm going to stop talking about slavery, which has little to do with my lived experience, and talk about homophobia instead.

'Bamathis was equated to fascism and Nazi-ism and the volunteer was likewise personally attacked. While that was abhorrant, what was even more disgusting was that a huge portion of our community stood by silently and allowed it.'

I wasn't here for any of Bamathis, but I think it's pretty easy to see how it's based on Nazism? I really want to focus on the latter sentence though, because I've seen a lot of times when our community 'stood by silently and allowed it' and I think it's interesting who is outraged about what. When someone says in an OOC context that they're gonna 'noose that f****t' and the reactions range between 1) laughter or 2) people 'stood by silently and allowed it' is that more or less abhorrent than playing an, at the very least, Nazi-adjacent god? This is directed at myself as well, there have been many times when I stood by silently and allowed it when I saw my friends say bigoted things. I'm sure I've said some too, unfortunately.

I was pretty intent on about coming back 3-4 months ago. I was excited by how many old names and general activity I saw when I logged in, I got pumped up about coding a system again, I regrettably splurged on a bunch of credits, etc. However, I've seen an uncomfortable number of slurs in darkweb, and they're a big part of why I'm disenchanted with playing Xarian. Looking at the people agreeing with some of the posts here, they aren't who I think of when I think of 'good, interesting roleplayers.' They aren't people who I think of as deeply concerned with the RP atmosphere of Aetolia, but weirdly they are some of those using the slurs. Again, it's interesting to see who gets outraged by what. A lot of real life bigotry gets a pass in Aetolia, and that seems especially true in darkweb for whatever reason. This is hugely disappointing to me, especially from people that I saw as friends when I was younger. I still see you as friends, but we all need to work on ourselves.

'I've always considered the best RPers to be people who are playing characters that are drastically different from their real selves'

If your real self is comfortable telling other people to leave slavery, homophobia, and other forms of 'baggage' 'at the door' in the context of enjoying their hobby, maybe a fun roleplay exercise would be to imagine playing someone more considerate than that.

The interesting part about exploring evil in a game isn't to simply to reproduce the evil existing in real life, except with your character in the drivers seat.

Drystin

Xarian said:

Whose 'real life baggage' are you asking someone to put aside

Every single one of us and -all- the baggage we have. As in, don't come here to take out your frustration with your shitty job, shitty relationship, your hatred of people that don't understand why you love drinking Whiteclaw, on the people that play this game. Interesting that you're looking for a motive. We'll explore that more in a bit. That's one..

Xarian said:

Obviously this sort of criticism doesn't apply only to slavery. So maybe you want to ask, 'Oh my god Xarian, do you and Joe Biden's cancel culture agenda..*static*

No, wrong again. I really don't want to ask any question that starts like that. I don't want to know where you stand politically, religiously, etc. In fact I want the complete opposite. I want to login to Aetolia and forget about all of that for a little while and be a part of Sapience. I want to play this game with people who I know are likely very different than me irl and still have a good time with them because we're focusing on the common ground that we have in the form of Aetolia, not our differences. That's two...

Xarian said:

I wasn't here for any of Bamathis, but I think it's pretty easy to see how it's based on Nazism?

It wasn't based on nazism at all. The admin explained in great detail what inspired the creation of Bamathis. That's three....

'I've always considered the best RPers to be people who are playing characters that are drastically different from their real selves'

Xarian said:

If your real self is comfortable telling other people to leave slavery, homophobia, and other forms of 'baggage' 'at the door' in the context of enjoying their hobby..blah blah blah

Interesting how you auto-jumped to those particular subjects which are constant contentious issues irl. That's four.. four times where your focus was firmly grounded on trying to make this all about some sort of real life political garbage. You just proved @Jhin's original statement. Thanks for playing.

Sibatti

Can we talk about those slurs in the shadow web tho, or is that part of the "escapism" that no one has to be accountable for them.

Xarian

The things you are calling 'real life political garbage' or 'baggage' is something that you can easily set aside because you don't experience it. Your examples of your baggage like 'shitty job, shitty relationship, your hatred of people that don't understand why you love drinking Whiteclaw' aren't necessarily comparable to 'you are a subhuman and don't deserve to exist' which is what I'm saying I experience from members of this community. Does that get through to you? Your privilege is making this invisible to you, you're explicitly asking for minorities to sit down and shut up because thinking about them is too much work for you.