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It really stings, though, in light of Achaea right now getting not one, but three paid D&D writers for their game. They're not even the RP Story game LOL
Big oof.
There have been complaints in the past about big lore or game events. I wish I could find the thread where people complained about apocalypse level events being boring and drawn out. Then there are events where it's geared specifically towards certain orgs and everyone else is not allowed to show up (or maybe that's just me because I've been killed on sight for showing up to some event that was not a 'Shadow' event). Sure, the Curse event was met with both intrigue and animosity in equal parts, but was ultimately cut short and there was some things sent up to higher HQ about it. Then you have events like the rebellion stuff which just fueled people's desires to just be uncool and made them feel that they were right at the expenditure of other people, which is also met with both intrigue and animosity.
While I see everyone talking about how there's no events, no one is talking about the fact that even when there IS events people complain it then too. Both points (positive and negative) are valuable to have as a discussion. As someone who has wanted to be, still occasionally wants to be, and has thoughts of being a Celani at some points.... if an event was made (big or small, org specific or global) that people complained about after because they weren't included, or if it just another archetype/cliché event, or just that it was bad because of XYZ reasons... I would be less likely to want to build more events and will just focus on QoL stuff.
Now I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here as to why there haven't been too many seen events, but the players have just as much of a responsibility and effect on the motivation of the Celani team that drives those events. And if people -only- discuss the negative, push other people out of those events, even submit issues to HQ, or are just plain out hostile during said event for whatever reason that you might defend.. then you're part of the reason that events are sidebarred.
Additionally, the more people ask for other things like orgreqs, help files to be edited, demand answers of work priority and whatnot... that pulls time away from building events if the motivation -IS- ultimately there. While those items might be minor in nature, the time spent reading those requests and making those changes, or responding to those questions DOES add up.
Lastly, there is a priority factor too. While we are not necessarily aware of what Aetolia priorities are (because the priorities are ever changing), the resources are as much of a variable as the action items, with the biggest variable being time allocation. If one org has an orgreq in that is going to take 3 days to fix but is ultimately QoL, it's a much lower priority than building the lines for a mirror class, getting Provision skills released, writing X god event, or interacting with Y players. But then when you get players messaging about the status of Orgreq #123456 and why it hasn't been completed yet every day... now it becomes the priority to just get you off their back to get it done, thus taking the 3 days to work on your orgreq instead of getting other things done, but oh... while you're working on Orgreq #123456, you might as well knock out 123457 and 123458 because you don't want messages about those in the near future or get asked why you didn't work on those while you worked on 123456.
I feel like a lot of players misunderstand the priority factor and how small things DO add up to make whatever probable events improbable because of a need of ever changing priorities and very limited time tables. And instead of being understanding of that, demands are made for a difference to be had but then when those demands are met, complaints ensue or they don't meet the expectations of the players are the players are just left disappointed.
Idk.... maybe I've been a project manager for way too long, or maybe I'm seeing things in a skewed light.
Consistent divine interaction, NPC's, storytelling....and if you dont Roleplay you get your credibility docked and lose the ability to talk, emote, etc.
Seems the RP is far more enforced there than it is here.
EDIT: Also, I am still bitter Eleusis got Toby Treacletart as an NPC from his city tours, he is the cutest gnome magi.....
It was an event that didn't make a lot of sense in the context of how you rp'd with it, allowed for, from what I've been told by folks in the anonymous channel, toxic and weird environment and then, when it was all said and done it was just "lol you don't remember why you acted this way". We couldn't even -address- being cursed in character. That's not really an event, it's a minigame.
I'm sure there are some people who don't like big events, just like there are some people who don't get the enjoyment out of bashing that you do. But there are plenty of us who WANT these events, and pretending that part of the game doesn't exist isn't going to help. If Rhyot shows up at a Templar event, yeah it makes no goddamn sense, but if you show up at a world wide one, people can rp being snots about it, but I would hope ooc people understand that it's a world wide event! If they don't, that sucks for them but can't relate.
Org reqs and events are two different things. Nobody expected a world shattering event every single week, but it's been nearly 500 days since one. That's a long ass time! I'm not saying org reqs don't factor into the work load, they totally do, but little projects don't stop you from being able to at least plan the big project. People who have jobs are expected to multi task all the time, I don't see why this is any different for the paid staff of Aetolia. Volunteers, of course, is another matter, but considering we've just learned one of IRE's games has THREE paid writers, it seems like maybe the head hanchos could stand taking a little less cash to pay for us to have one too, 'cause lemme tell you, that's a SUPER bad look.
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Complaints are going to happen regardless and not every complaint has a reasonable and or satisfying solution. That's just the nature of life and dealing with the public/other people. But ultimately, unless there's like a systemic or critical failure that needs addressing or fixing that cannot be easily course corrected, the show must go on. It might seem heartless but that's how businesses survive.
Resources come in three aspects: Manpower, Manning, and time. Each event, each orgreq, each message uses a bit of those resources to some varying degree. For example, if the mirror classes needed 300 hours of work by 5 people, that is the aspect of necessary manpower to get the job done on time. But if there are only 2 people available for that job (manning), then it's no longer 300 hours divided by 5 people, but rather 300 hours into the two. The amount of time you need to COMPLETE the event stays the same, but the time you HAVE available to you to complete is an ever changing resource based off real life activities, other issues coming in, and the inherent need to interact with the players too. So in all reality, that required 300 hours of work is ACTIVE time put into that specific event, not just general login time.
While Aetolia might be making a profit, the paid staff aren't making any more or less than if it wasn't. At the end of the day, people are still going to pay for credits or invest their time into the game. So monetary value is actually not a real arguable resource in the aspect content being created. That argument is specifically towards manning and manpower. So the resources available to Aetolia is very limited considering the high turnover rate, the fact that not all Celani get promoted to God-status and some of them probably don't end up making the cut after a certain trial period. This makes their manning just as much of a variable as time available, while the manpower needed to complete a project grinds against them.
If this doesn't make sense, I will do my best to explain it in better detail just let me know.
I totally understand that some people are fine with no big events, but forgive my saying that the cursed event hardly counts as a big event.
It was an event that didn't make a lot of sense in the context of how you rp'd with it, allowed for, from what I've been told by folks in the anonymous channel, toxic and weird environment and then, when it was all said and done it was just "lol you don't remember why you acted this way". We couldn't even -address- being cursed in character. That's not really an event, it's a minigame.
@Rasani
I will absolutely agree that the Curse event wouldn't count as a big event and that it would likely be more accurate to determine it as a minigame. However, in the sense of 'content', minigame perception or not, it was still an event that took time to build, resources to create, and then even more time to implement for player interaction. Yes, the Curse event was met with both animosity and intrigue but it was a unique event nonetheless. An event that ended up having communications sent up to higher HQ and was given a cease and desist order.
Regardless of how we perceived the event/minigame, the fact that all that time was put into something that the players then immediately complained about to HQ will generally (more often than not) leave a very sour taste in the minds of those who were involved with it. Due to the nature of the cease and desist order, whether the team will admit it or not, it DOES have an effect on the mentality and motivation to create more content, events, and lore.
I'm sure there are some people who don't like big events, just like there are some people who don't get the enjoyment out of bashing that you do. But there are plenty of us who WANT these events, and pretending that part of the game doesn't exist isn't going to help. If Rhyot shows up at a Templar event, yeah it makes no goddamn sense, but if you show up at a world wide one, people can rp being snots about it, but I would hope ooc people understand that it's a world wide event! If they don't, that sucks for them but can't relate.
I'm really glad you mentioned this! Yes, you are right that some people don't like big events. Sometimes these small events are even more fun than big ones. However, previously in this same thread it was mentioned that even if it's a small event, people are so deprived of content and events that they'll even show up to those events even if it isn't for their org. From a Celani perspective, this is AMAZING! You're getting these people who they might not have otherwise been able to interact with and you get to interact with them! That's AWESOME!
But let's flip the script now. If it's a small/big event for a specific org and people who would otherwise not really have any real reason to be involved show up and then are immediately killed and blacklisted from enjoying that event, you are spitting on the Celani that -made- that event. You are essentially telling the Celani that their work isn't fit for everyone to participate in and only -you- get to enjoy their hard work. This creates a vacuum where that Celani doesn't want to make anymore content for that specific org because then it will appear as favoritism. Why should they create more small org content when all you do is keep out anyone who you feel doesn't belong? Content is for everyone and so long as nobody is being a jerk about the event, let them sit there and enjoy the show. For a game that is deemed to be primarily RP-centric, eliminating anyone that feels like they don't belong at an event simply for showing up is a direct conflict of that RP-centrism.
You mentioned that it would make no sense for Rhyot to show up to a Templar event, and in some circumstances you would be right. However, instead of just assuming that Rhyot is there to be a nuisance... why not ask him, "Yo buddy, why you here?" This not only provides a basis of very interesting RP avenues but it ALSO provides the Celani team more notes about all these character and gives them more incentive to be passionate about being a Celani and -maybe- interacting with these other players on a more consistent basis. After all, why -would- Rhyot show up to a Templar event? The Templars don't know, the Celani don't know. Only Rhyot does. Explore that! The Celani crave that inter-character interactions as much as the players crave events and content. It's a two-way street, you need to give a little to get a little.
Org reqs and events are two different things. Nobody expected a world shattering event every single week, but it's been nearly 500 days since one. That's a long unicorns time! I'm not saying org reqs don't factor into the work load, they totally do, but little projects don't stop you from being able to at least plan the big project. People who have jobs are expected to multi task all the time, I don't see why this is any different for the paid staff of Aetolia. Volunteers, of course, is another matter, but considering we've just learned one of IRE's games has THREE paid writers, it seems like maybe the head hanchos could stand taking a little less cash to pay for us to have one too, 'cause lemme tell you, that's a SUPER bad look.
Yes, org reqs and events ARE two different things, but as previously mentioned... time availability is a dwindling resource. While I'm not sure how much T, Raz, and K get paid to be in their positions, I would be willing to bet that it's nowhere near viable enough that they too don't have their own RL jobs going on, but regardless.... EVERY member of the Admin/Celani team -DO- have real lives. T took time out to get married and start his family, Raz cooks chicken in a microwave, K bashes his head into a wall when he has to deal with combat stuff, Zeheia has his/her family going on AND is planning his/her own wedding, Brax is doing Brax things, Tedrunai is off doing Ted things. Everyone has a real life, with real people, with real friends, real kids, and real EVERYTHING.
Naos mentioned 80 man-hour weeks. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned 6 members of the current Pools team, equaling out to each person putting in 13 hours each to meet that 80 man-hour weeks. However, I do imagine that there are other members in the Pools that I do not know of or hear about which turns that time lower and lower. Now this goes back to manning and manpower that I previously mentioned, but also ties into the issue of org reqs. If an org req is going to require 12 hours of work and various players are pinging the Celani team on status updates every other day, that 12 hours is going to get allocated to the org req plus whatever additional org reqs are in the queue for that organization just to get those players to get off their back. That's 12+ hours that is no longer available to the continuation of World Event #321 or Small Templar Event #600. That's 12+ hours where the Celani bend over backwards to acquiesce to players who otherwise snub their noses at them when an event doesn't meet their expectation or then sit there and complain 'Oh well, thanks for completing Orgreq #123456. Why did it take 4 months to complete when you got it done in 12 hours from start to finish?'
Orgreqs are not a priority, they're additives. The players make the Celani -make- them a priority because of consistent complaints, check ups, and requests on status updates. Even if your only message is, "Hey, just curious if ya'll need any clarification on Orgreq #123456." that it still a ping that makes them weigh your orgreq as a higher priority than investing those 12+ hours into World Event #321 or Small Templar Event #600. An additive is something extra, but not necessary.
Complaints are going to happen regardless and not every complaint has a reasonable and or satisfying solution. That's just the nature of life and dealing with the public/other people. But ultimately, unless there's like a systemic or critical failure that needs addressing or fixing that cannot be easily course corrected, the show must go on. It might seem heartless but that's how businesses survive.
@Haven
I agree with you wholeheartedly that complaints are going to happen and not all complaints are resolved in a manner that the players see fitting. However, this creates animosity with the playerbase because they wanted a different outcome. However, that's a completely separate argument to motivation and involvement.
Every complaint made by players because of an event that had -hours- upon -hours- of time investment drags onto the Celani who spent that time making the event. The Celani are Celani because they have a passion, motivation, and desire to create content for the players and enjoyment of this game. If all they ever get are complaints, it effects their mental fortitude, their passion, their motivation, and their desire to create more content. Why should they invest all this time into the game for the players if all they do is receive hate for it? They're volunteers. They don't -HAVE- to be a Celani, they're a volunteer. If the players continue to berate, attack, and complain about the events that are made then eventually they'll step down. This creates a continuous loop of problems of content/events not being created that players then complain about, but then when the events/content is created the players complain anyway. It's a very unsavory double-edged sword.
While the show must go on and events still need to be created, you do have to take into consideration the motivation to get those done. Especially when QoL completions are met with more praise than events.
Anyway, events are important to energize the player base and get things going, but I would be very happy with random bits of lore here and there that players could run with according to their imagination. The Curse event ended up giving me a few ideas for things I could do with Legyn.
At the end of the day, employee/volunteer retention and customer service isn't a responsibility that ever belongs in the hands of the players/public. It's not that people shouldn't care about one another but Aetolia/IRE isn't in the business of making better people. Maybe some policies could be introduced to help mitigate the burnout by rotating duties or better protect their people or something. Hard to really say without data or an HR department but really that's for the people behind the curtains to decide and figure out their business needs. Not the customers.
I could take 'em or leave 'em. The time that they are designated to run, i.e. 1700 Eastern to 2100 Pacific, is literally the one time I can almost never play. As Brax pointed out, there are things to do. Tons of things to do. The time events usually run is the practically untouchable time. So, would I rather admin and volunteers spend time on events, or stuff I'll actually use/benefit from? I'll got 20/80. I'm not strictly selfish. Just mostly.
Couldn't tell you a darn thing about narrative needs. I tell my own story. Or at least try to. I caught the end of the Revenant event because I logged in on my phone. I'm a Sciomancer, so I should have been really into it! It was about as fulfilling as a chalupa from Taco Bell. After the first bite, you realize you're playing with fire and you'll pay for it on the shitter tomorrow.
Give me promos to spend money on. New classes. New skills. Mining. Air ships. Small-ish events to release them? Sure. I'm sure I'll use like 5% of whatever is released. Events? 0.05%. Orders of magnitudes.
Like I said. Wildly unpopular. I totally acknowledge the value of big events. I could insert the "I hope to be part of one someday" meme, but that would take effort. They serve a purpose. I just... can't be bothered to care.
I heartily agree that volunteers owe us nothing. They're players in their own right who has decided that they want to try contributing to the story of Aetolia as a DM rather than a player. They are paid nothing, but they are spending equally valuable time to find their own fun this way. They should be held responsible for the events that they push out, I'm sure, but really, I think the larger part of the responsibility, if there is fair criticism on them, should be on the ones who approved the event and let them proceed. In these situations, it's live and learn.
And I don't think the admin necessarily have to run events around 1700 eastern to 2100 pacific. Sure, it's the time where there can be a good mix of EU/NA/SEA people around to participate, but I think that events should also be held at timings outside of that, just so the spread of activity can be include more people who do not usually play around those timings.
Imo, I feel there needs to be a good balance struck between having new promos/features and events. As we can tell, both would attract different amounts of player interaction and player retention. Personally, I enjoy having new things to toy with, but at the same time when the novelty of new things start to fade, there is nothing else to capture my attention with. What then?
Personally, I would be happy to just have some active gods so that our orders aren't basically dead. At least that allows us to move our own personal stories ahead which is more important than the main world plot to some of us.
As for big vs small events, I would absolutely prefer smaller events and more often, because that would (hopefully) give more people a chance to get involved in some events and also giving room for others in other events. Big world-changing events should absolutely take place, but they don't have to be the main focus. Keep the game alive and more lively with smaller events that either cater to an order, a guild, a city or heck.. even just a random person standing around cause you are bored and wanna do something fun for someone else!
As for more, frankly, crap to spend credits on: That's part of the issue rn imho. It's become clear to me that the only things paid staff are really spending their time on is making more stuff for people to purchase. If it won't make them money, they're no longer interested. Honestly, I think having a more rich, fulfilling story going on in the world has the chance to bring in more players, but we're gonna become one of those games where CT is entirely ooc PK talk if all they focus on is how they can best make money off a player base they basically ignore narratively.
I understand that this might not qualify as active enough for you, but you've heard from Brax how busy he is, I am working two jobs (and while the second isn't a lot of hours, the first is consistently 47/48 hours every week) with two small children at home, one in remote schooling, and some other stuff going on too. We're not the only ones with life happening, but still here pretty much every day.
I can't comment on the storyteller idea, as it's really not my place, but keeping the docent matter in mind, I don't know how viable it is.
It is definitely disheartening to come on the forums to see what cool stories you guys are sharing, or memes, or just to kinda feel a little involved in the playerbase and to find a new problem crops up when we've barely taken breath after the mirror releases, but know that we are working on stories (I am personally involved in one involving two gods, and I have my own plans in various stages for some more Order-related things) and we aren't deliberately holding out on you.
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However, as a side note, this has been an issue for a really long time, so it's not only due to Covid. I just hope that after Covid, when everyone's vaccinated and things are starting to return to normal, we could actually make the game come alive again.